Boat buying blasphemy

[Tom.B]

Bayliner owners are so cute sometimes

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by Tom.B

Bayliner owners are so cute sometimes

Navigator owners are as well. They are in the same boat literally

[Tom.B]

Originally Posted by ksanders

Navigator owners are as well. They are in the same boat literally

Actually, since my earlier thread about having a cored hull, I (actually Bess) discovered the real hull plug is solid glass (1”) and the plug I thought was the hull was the deck. :-)

[Mkeller]

Originally Posted by koliver

"Judge !!"



"I’ll see your GTO and raise you a 1970 442 w30."Judge !!



This is what I am talking about!

Lol. I still win. Google W30. 500+ torque monster that almost hooks predictably on 305 tires. If only it could pass a gas station.

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by Tom.B

Actually, since my earlier thread about having a cored hull, I (actually Bess) discovered the real hull plug is solid glass (1”) and the plug I thought was the hull was the deck. :-)

I was meaning Navigatrors as production boats.

[Nomad Willy]

Originally Posted by ksanders

Back to the original issue at hand...

First, the OP is 100% correct. Almost ANY boat made is suitable for Coastal Cruising.

I’ll repeat that, but a tad stronger this time ANY production boat, over a certain size class is perfectly suitable for Coastal Cruising.

Now it’s time to dispell some Trawler Forum Myths...

Heavier does not mean “better built” for Coastal Cruising. Boats that are meant to travel above displacement speed hugly benefit from light weight constructon. The reason is simple... Lighter boats are more easily driven up on plane, so they require less Horsepower, and less fuel to run above displacement speeds.

Heavier in terms of 1970-1980’s Taiwan Trawlers does not mean they are better built. The Taiwan Trawler era was at the infancy of fiberglass technology. The manufacturers simply did not know the strength of fiberglass yet, so they overbuilt intentionally. As the technology matured they invented techniques like vacume bagging, and also realized thast fiberglass is stronger than they originally envisioned, and that they could make a hull thinner, and it would still stand up to the punshment of use.

Lets also quench another Myth. The Taiwan Trawler was not some super duper high quality piece of work. They were in general made by a variety of yards, and many were knock offs of designs by famous yards, and naval designers. They were put together as a price point production boat menat to fill a market need. The Taiwan trawlers have very nice wood interiors simply because wood was plentiful in Asia, and labor was cheap.

Guys, when I set out to buy a 50 foot class Coastal Cruiser in 2011 I had a budget of a bit over 250K to work with. I could have bought ANY 1980’s Taiwan trawler on the market. Yet I CHOSE to spend that money on a Bayliner 4788. Why??? Was I just stupid? Was I uneducated? Did I waste my money on junk?

No, I looked at my mission profile, which was Coastal Cruising along the West Coast of America from Mexico to Alaska, and bought a very good boat to fulfill that mission, for that level of investment

What I got was a boat that is comfortable from 7-15 knots, allowing me to travel at slow speeds when I wanted, and at high speeds when they better suited my needs.

I got a boat with a foam core on the decks, to avoid deck rot

A vacume bagged foam cored hull for strength, and light weight, a hull design that has NEVER suffered a delaminaton.

An alumanium superstructure to save weight, and have the cabin space I wanted and the seaworthiness I needed by keeping topside weight low.

Modern diesel engines with parts and service available anywhere

Aluminum tanks for longevity.

A boat designed in America by the largest team of Naval Architects in the industry, and built in America in a modern plant, using modern construction methods.

Today, the Bayliner 4788 is the most prolific 50’ class boat that has ever been built in terms of numbers of completed hulls.

Yet, when you look on Yachtworld, you see very few for sale. The reason for that is simple, they are really good boats, that offer a great value.

So...

Yes, I agree completely with the OP. No a Bayliner is not a KK, or a Nordhavn, or a fleming. It is a production boat perfectly suited for Coastal Cruising.

I rarely do this Kevin but the above was agreat post. Worthy of a second read.

And you’re right they are “really good boats that offer good value”. And another reason there’s not that many on yachtworld is that to move up it would cost too much because the B isn’t a hot item. Probably an advantage as it probably puts the damper on 2’itus.
How much lighter than comparable boats of the same size is your boat?

[Benthic2]

my "Judge" comment was related to the Pontiac GTO posting. There was a souped up version of the GTO called the "Judge".....very cool car...(as have the others that have been posted)

[catalinajack]

Originally Posted by TugYacht_33

im sorry, but i gotta call BS on this observation ........

when is the last time you paid 700 bucks for plug wires (bmw 7 series)
replaced cat converters due to bad gas (another 700 in a lot of cases)
had your car totaled for what amounted to a fender bender
had to watch an anti lock light on your dash no one can turn off
paid 800 bucks for 4 injectors due to bad gas
too lazy to spend 5 minutes a week checking fluids ??? your boat loves you
replaced a coil pack (50-200 bucks) my dist cap is 15 bucks
water pumps are expendable items no matter what you drive, and i can show you several (like more then 100) 50-60-70 year old cars running with original
radiators right now
replace the starter on a new cadillac, you have to tear the entire motor apart, starter is inside the engine
and these are all very common this day and age (think multi billion dollar auto parts industry)

it really irks me when people clump new and dependable into the same basket...... all you have done is trade one set of issues for another, no better no worse......
yes, by proxy newer may mean more dependable by sake of less hours used, but hi tech new age construction tech does not make my old tech any less dependable, it just means your tech is different, same destination, different routes......

i would go so far as to say the old tech ways a lot of times are far more dependable due to time in service (proven track record)..... expense to repair or replace (a little fairing compound VS a carbon/kevlar/cored/composite nightmare)

the car voted year after year as the most beautiful in the world is over a hundred years old....
im pretty sure it is the same for boats.....

just because something has been so idiot proofed it needs an aerospace engineer to change the oil does not mean its more dependable or better.....
it simply means this is way its done these days...

Here, here!

[knotheadcharters]

I love that everyone is passionate about different brands, I have owned Wellcraft, Grady White, Bayliner, Californian and spent a lot of time on Trojans, Alglas, Ulrichson, Silvertons, SeaStar The latter owned b my Father. The one thing I do know is that a boat is only as good as the owner. If you donot use it its pretty much a piece of shit. I see multi million dollar boats in my marina that never go anywhere and never see anyone on board and other less expensive boats that are used every weekend. I have enjoyed every boat I have owned and for the purpose of use none of them has let me down. Of course they are built different but I had the same major brand name components on my Bayliner 3288 as I do on my 48 Californian and they are 2 completely different price point boats. It's funny to hear people talk about other brands, when 98% of people never get outside the sight of land.

[FF]

I’ll repeat that, but a tad stronger this time ANY production boat, over a certain size class is perfectly suitable for Coastal Cruising.

I have a problem with "over a certain size" concept.

Both the AICW and Loop have been run on jet skis.

In the 1960 era outboards had run from the Gulf to Chicago, with no safety issues.

The question is how small the vessel can be and still serve the needs of the occupants.

Internal comfort is not a matter of mere volume , it is a matter of excellent space use.

Even a winter in the Bahamas could be done in comfort on a 25ft IO, if set up properly.

[smitty477]

Originally Posted by Nomad Willy

I rarely do this Kevin but the above was agreat post. Worthy of a second read.

And you’re right they are “really good boats that offer good value”. And another reason there’s not that many on yachtworld is that to move up it would cost too much because the B isn’t a hot item. Probably an advantage as it probably puts the damper on 2’itus.
How much lighter than comparable boats of the same size is your boat?

After watching the sales of the Bayliner Pilothouse models for many years I can attest that they remain a hot item. Many have been sold and moved overseas to places like Australia, Europe and areas around the PI islands. There were many built (a couple of thousand) so many have not been taken care of well and even those 'terrible' examples sell at a lower price as folks attempt to bring them back. The actual number of Pilothouse Bayliners for sale on places like Yachtworld has continued to drop for the last dozen or so years as the well maintained units left in the US continues to decline. A more recent occurrence is to see adds for "Bayliner Pilothouse wanted" in various places like the BOC.
Question about weight - one of the closest copies of Kevin's 47 Bayliner would be the Navigator that comes in at about 25% more weight. Other copies range higher than that at 30-40% more weight for similar size and layout.

[smitty477]

Originally Posted by knotheadcharters

I love that everyone is passionate about different brands, I have owned Wellcraft, Grady White, Bayliner, Californian and spent a lot of time on Trojans, Alglas, Ulrichson, Silvertons, SeaStar The latter owned b my Father. The one thing I do know is that a boat is only as good as the owner. If you donot use it its pretty much a piece of shit. I see multi million dollar boats in my marina that never go anywhere and never see anyone on board and other less expensive boats that are used every weekend. I have enjoyed every boat I have owned and for the purpose of use none of them has let me down. Of course they are built different but I had the same major brand name components on my Bayliner 3288 as I do on my 48 Californian and they are 2 completely different price point boats. It's funny to hear people talk about other brands, when 98% of people never get outside the sight of land.

Up in the north east here far away from you and I must agree 100%. Most boats we know of up here over these last 30 years do not leave the slip and certainly less than 2% ever leave sight of land. More than one time when planning trips with our 'paper cruising club" we had to have extensive meetings when we planned to go to Block Island and folks would be out of sight of land.
The most common boater is not represented on this Trawler site for sure.

[Rufus]

1. There's a lot to be said for those beautiful wood interiors on older Taiwan boats. Vast expanses of man-made materials, not so much. Whatever floats your boat.

2. A few years back I did a head job on a 2.0 VW Turbo (2006 Beetle) following cam belt failure. Refurbished head was ~ $600. Head kit another ~$300. A few special tools under $100. VW dealer wanted $3000.

3. Another off topic contribution...just rolled out after 35 years under restoration.

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by Nomad Willy

I rarely do this Kevin but the above was agreat post. Worthy of a second read.

And you’re right they are “really good boats that offer good value”. And another reason there’s not that many on yachtworld is that to move up it would cost too much because the B isn’t a hot item. Probably an advantage as it probably puts the damper on 2’itus.
How much lighter than comparable boats of the same size is your boat?

Thanks Eric!

My boat has a 47’ hull length and weighs 30,000 pounds dry.

I have no clue how much another boat meant to get up on plane that size weighs.

I will agree that heavier is probably better at dislacement speeds in heavy seas. I do not know if heavier in terms of thicker hull is better, comparing two SD boats.

I know that cruising is having fun, and that means picking your travel weather. Nobody likes rough water, and non time constrained cruising to me means avoiding rough water.

Yesterday the California Coast around Santa Barbara was flat calm. A great day for cruising, as we drove in our rent a car. I wished we were out there. Today it might be really bad. Thats why retired cruisers hang in port. What makes one port any better than the next? Why move ports in rought weather?

[BandB]

Originally Posted by aboatman

I see a lot of "sport cruisers" (think Sea Ray, Bayliner, etc.) in my marina but the folks take them out for day cruises and sometimes a weekend spent at a marina 70 miles away. They seldom anchor overnight and never go more than one day's cruise from home.

On the contrary, we take our trawler and go as far and for as long as we want. That is what it was designed and built for.

That said, it wasn't built to cross oceans, that's a different type of boat entirely.

Those sport cruisers are largely owned by a far different demographic. They're younger, have kids, and still working full time plus. They don't have the desire or the time to go at 7 knots. They have a two day weekend and if they want to go 70 nm, then they don't want to spend 10 hours each day on the trip. Rather be to the destination in 3 hours. They'd love to take long cruises but they don't have that luxury. Oh, and don't say summer vacation. Often the two parents can't get off the same time and even if they do one kid has little league baseball, the other has swim team, and the third has ballet.

[klee wyck]

[QUOTE=Nomad Willy;621475].
Metal boats and FG plastic boats very often (perhaps usually) are not fair. That is the surfaces of the hull and house is not flat or (most often) curved. But the curve is not even, constant or “fair”. Most prominent is the waveness on the sides of steel vessels.

Not fair........??

Steel.

[TugYacht_33]

this is an excerpt from a discussion about steel boat building

About Al Sorenson & his metal boats...

While now retired and no longer building boats, Al always thought like an amateur builder even though his work was of professional stature. The care and quality of his design work has garnered the admiration of professional designers and boatbuilders nationwide.
Once one of his steel tugs was inadvertently docked near a classic wooden in-water boat show and won the "people’s choice" award. While not an official entry and an embarrassment to him, the judges let it stand since the boat did have a wood cabin and Al was a local institution. More to the point, the steel hull was so fair and true due to his simple, proven methods that no one could tell it was a steel boat.

[Islanddreamer]

Some vintage things are better but not all. There is a 2009 Impala vs. 1959 Chevrolet Belair collision video online. While difficult to watch the destruction of a beautiful old Chevy, it makes the point of newer cars being safer. It depends on the criteria you are using for better. The ‘59 certainly rode better and increased in value. Steered like an old car... drove one.

I play guitar, and while my older instruments hold value much better than newer ones, they have more issues with noise and shielding than newer guitars. Some of the older build quality isn’t as good as some newer models.

Our 1978 Albin is a solid old boat with a bulletproof Lehman. I can walk completely around the cabin without worrying about slipping under rails like on friends’ “bubble boats”. Some in my marina talk about going places in 45 minutes that take me 2 1/2 hours to get to. Everything in my life goes by too quickly, and our boat gives me the opportunity to enjoy the journey. Our boat and I are both “vintage”.

[aboatman]

Originally Posted by BandB

Those sport cruisers are largely owned by a far different demographic. They're younger, have kids, and still working full time plus. They don't have the desire or the time to go at 7 knots. They have a two day weekend and if they want to go 70 nm, then they don't want to spend 10 hours each day on the trip. Rather be to the destination in 3 hours. They'd love to take long cruises but they don't have that luxury. Oh, and don't say summer vacation. Often the two parents can't get off the same time and even if they do one kid has little league baseball, the other has swim team, and the third has ballet.

In some cases that's true but at my age (I was born when FDR was in office), I tend to make friends with people about my age. Our two closest friends (couples) at our marina are close to our age (one younger, one older) and these are the people I was talking about. They have the time but not the desire.

[Tom.B]

Originally Posted by BandB

Those sport cruisers are largely owned by a far different demographic. They're younger, have kids, and still working full time plus. They don't have the desire or the time to go at 7 knots. They have a two day weekend and if they want to go 70 nm, then they don't want to spend 10 hours each day on the trip. Rather be to the destination in 3 hours. They'd love to take long cruises but they don't have that luxury. Oh, and don't say summer vacation. Often the two parents can't get off the same time and even if they do one kid has little league baseball, the other has swim team, and the third has ballet.

I resemble that remark. EXCEPT... in our 50’s and ZERO kids.

While we didn’t hate the trawler experience, we wanted (needed) to explore further and be able to stay longer. From New Bern, faster helped us be able to do that without “wasting” PTO days just to goto Morehead City or Oriental when we can use them for longer treks to Ocracoke, Bald Head, or Manteo.