Vaccination passports

[jgtrucking]

I don't disagree with most of what you say, but how is the vaccine unproven? You may choose not to get one, and that's your right and I have no problem with that, but I do take exception with people calling it experimental and unproven. Granted we won't know if there are long-term effects until that time passes, but what alternative do you suggest? Vaccinate 1M people and wait 10 years to vaccinate anyone else? Any new medicine or procedure that comes to market is not 100% risk free, but how else can it be done?

If you want to take it, by all means, take it. But the more it is forced, the more backlash there will be. Oh you cant travel, next you cant work, etc, etc. The travel part doesnt mean much to me(my loop will likely be us only due to firearm restrictions in canada), but it wont stop there. Many states are in process of passing laws outlawing the requirement of a medical device (mask) for entry if you are open to the general public. This whole mess has been about getting people to conform, do as instructed. So i fight every part of it, even if it does not directly affect me.

 

[backinblue]

You are welcome to fight the conspiracy that you see, but I haven't seen anyone forcing the vaccine or restricting anyone that doesn't get one. That could become a thing but I doubt it. Restrictions today involve proving you test negative. That will probably continue as long as COVID is a threat. Maybe the vaccine will allow you to bypass the test requirement at some point. COVID is real, it's not made up to try to get the public to conform to something. The vaccine is an option to fight it. Whether you want it or not is up to you.

 

[Nomad Willy]

jgtrucking wrote;
“The problem with science is you need ALL the facts. And you will never get all the facts from mainstream media today.”

All the facts are rarely known on anything.
But you’re very far astray if you think science gets their facts from the media.

But by getting a shot you’re relying on thousands of very learned/studied people that are very connected to the medical community where the facts get filtered.
And you seem to think you know better than all these people and the dedicated community that they belong to? A lot of misdirected confidence IMO.

 

[jgtrucking]

jgtrucking wrote;
“The problem with science is you need ALL the facts. And you will never get all the facts from mainstream media today.”

All the facts are rarely known on anything.
But you’re very far astray if you think science gets their facts from the media.

But by getting a shot you’re relying on thousands of very learned/studied people that are very connected to the medical community where the facts get filtered.
And you seem to think you know better than all these people and the dedicated community that they belong to? A lot of misdirected confidence IMO.

What makes you think a "scientist" is trustworthy. How many still peddle global warming... oh no now itx man made climate change, because the warming trend started reversing... No science doesnt get their facts from media, people do. Media is less trustworthy than scientists. But these details are to keep you too busy to see the real threat. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Every time you find some isdue yiu want to stand behind, look at who is making money off peddeling that info first. Less government, less regulation, less corupt officials getting thier pocket lined.

 

[backinblue]

And don't forget, the world is flat. Don't trust science!

 

[HeadedToTexas]

No changing of minds here..

So can we get back to boat issues?

Amen. As with most political issues, we are all more steeped in our opinion than ever. I just hope liberty reigns for my children and grandchildren.

 

[FWT]

You are welcome to fight the conspiracy that you see, but I haven't seen anyone forcing the vaccine or restricting anyone that doesn't get one. That could become a thing but I doubt it. Restrictions today involve proving you test negative. That will probably continue as long as COVID is a threat. Maybe the vaccine will allow you to bypass the test requirement at some point. COVID is real, it's not made up to try to get the public to conform to something. The vaccine is an option to fight it. Whether you want it or not is up to you.

The bold part is not quite true, especially in CT where as you know there are travel restrictions. I have a house in CT and one in MD, so like you I am subject to CT restrictions. I cannot go to MD and return to CT without being tested or be subject to quarantine. With test results running 3 days, that means I cannot travel to my other home (in a safer area than CT) for a quick weekend to take care of business without taking a number of vacation days. Guilty (infected) until proven innocent.

Which is the logic behind covid passports. Unless you have one you would be considered infected with liberties restricted.

So yeah, you might be free to not get vaccinated, but penalized in freedoms without it.

That's just wrong

 

[Nomad Willy]

jgtrucking wrote;
“What makes you think a "scientist" is trustworthy.”

They are policed by their own.
How far would I get here on TF trying to convince you a 4cyl engine was smoother than a six? The guys would tear you apart.

btw I miss trucking.

 

[backinblue]

The bold part is not quite true, especially in CT where as you know there are travel restrictions. I have a house in CT and one in MD, so like you I am subject to CT restrictions. I cannot go to MD and return to CT without being tested or be subject to quarantine. With test results running 3 days, that means I cannot travel to my other home (in a safer area than CT) for a quick weekend to take care of business without taking a number of vacation days. Guilty (infected) until proven innocent.

Which is the logic behind covid passports. Unless you have one you would be considered infected with liberties restricted.

So yeah, you might be free to not get vaccinated, but penalized in freedoms without it.

That's just wrong

The restrictions I was talking was about being able to enter some places of business or air travel. Nobody can stop me from driving across state lines or force me to quarantine if I do. Many businesses in many states will not allow you to enter the building without proof of a recent negative test result. It's not a state or federal law, but left up to each business to decide.

 

[FWT]

The restrictions I was talking was about being able to enter some places of business or air travel. Nobody can stop me from driving across state lines or force me to quarantine if I do. Many businesses in many states will not allow you to enter the building without proof of a recent negative test result. It's not a state or federal law, but left up to each business to decide.

You are certainly free to break the law / regulations, but if you do in CT you are subject to steep fines.

 

[backinblue]

The bold part is not quite true, especially in CT where as you know there are travel restrictions. I have a house in CT and one in MD, so like you I am subject to CT restrictions. I cannot go to MD and return to CT without being tested or be subject to quarantine. With test results running 3 days, that means I cannot travel to my other home (in a safer area than CT) for a quick weekend to take care of business without taking a number of vacation days. Guilty (infected) until proven innocent.

Which is the logic behind covid passports. Unless you have one you would be considered infected with liberties restricted.

So yeah, you might be free to not get vaccinated, but penalized in freedoms without it.

That's just wrong

Again, I have not seen or heard of a single restriction or penalty for not being vaccinated. You think people are being forced but the fact is quite the opposite. The majority want to get vaccinated asap but so far cannot be.

 

[FWT]

Perspective is so lost on this topic in discussions everywhere.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

Per that latest data, the mortality rate is 1.7% since the beginning of this mess when no one knew just how to treat it. That is to say, if you do contract it 1.7% have died.

But with 332 million in the US, 8.4% of the US has contracted it.

0.15% of the US has died from it.

And that's taking all data at face value, which many do not

How many trillions have now been spent on a disease that has killed 0.15% of the population? Can you really call something like that a Pandemic? Is it worth the trillions, destruction of businesses and family wealth, and impairment of liberties, for that?

Its a judgement call. I think not.

 

[backinblue]

It is not enforceable and fines are not steep even if it could be enforced.

 

[FWT]

So therein lies the balance.

Take your chances with a never-before-tried approach to the vaccine (which has some deaths reported) or take your chances with your 1.7% chance of death if you get Covid.

Neither choice is wrong. You still have to make it. And it should be no one's business but your own which choice is made.

 

[FWT]

It is not enforceable and fines are not steep even if it could be enforced.

https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/Coronavirus/20210120-DPH-Travel-Advisory.pdf

$500

Steep. Not steep. Call it what you like

 

[Hippocampus]

Have been involved with HIPAA regulations since inception. These are the regulations that control the release and handling of medical information in the US.
Have also been involved in genetic research, treating genetic disease and drug research. Have been internationally cruising for decades and granted practique innumerable times.
Much of the above does not reflect my understanding of reality.
The original and continuing reason for practique is to control disease in animals, plants and humans. All countries can refuse to grant practique by whatever criterion they choose. This has been true for hundreds of years and continues to be codified in the international law of the sea and elsewhere.
If an agency pays for an intervention or test they have the right to know what that intervention or test is. Given for genetic tests and some other tests that may impact on offers of employment, training (military academies, university, medical school) and insurance. So although there are protections it’s often wise to pay out of pocket for certain tests or genetic screening. And maybe wise for it not to appear in the electronic medical record. Think it extremely unwise to do genetic testing for entertainment such as ancestry exploration as it stands now.
Businesses have been refusing employment in an effort to prevent disease since before the American revolution. This goes well beyond food handlers. Owners of housing or other privately held property have similarly restricted ingress on similar grounds.
Don’t want to vaccinate your kids home school them.
Want to work in my office here’s the dress code, acceptable behavior, agree to a Cori screen and depending on the business get this or that health clearance.
Way it is and has been for hundreds of years.
A basic libertarian principle is -I have the right to do what I want- but the rest of it is-as long as I don’t hurt others. So I as an employer or when granting access to training that has limited openings and supporting resources have the right to excluded you if your presence has a reasonable likelihood of causing me injury or you have increased the likelihood you won’t survive long enough or be healthy enough to justify the cost of the training.
This applies to testing ( don’t want to do it well then don’t travel) as well as any other restriction.

I wish that people who think of themselves as libertarian actually understood and followed libertarian principles.
Agree everyone should have the right to accept or refuse vaccination. But also with that comes accepting the consequences of that decision. Every one has the right to get tested or not. But accept the consequences.

 

[FWT]

"But accept the consequences."

The consequences of the hysteria surrounding this affects everyone, like it or not. Choose them or not. And that's pretty expensive hysteria. Not just in dollar terms.

 

[Benthic2]

.. Every cause of death under the sun is WAY down, every death imaginable this past year was blamed on covid. For simple financial reasons. $. Hospitals especially got paid to attribute any death they could to covid. The problem with science is you need ALL the facts....

Every cause of death..is way down
I have never seen facts to support that but this is a logical result of the pandemic. Increased handwashing, mask wearing and staying home is going to reduce deaths from infectious diseases like flu, pnuemonia, etc.

Also, people were not working so work related deaths are down. Our GDP declined by $500Billion dollars!! That's A LOT less work that was done. Also traffic deaths should be down from the unemployed and the "work from home" groups.
Also remember that there will be deaths due to Covid that are unreported due to delayed preventative health care. I have not gone to my dentist in almost a year. People have avoided check ups and routine medical care due to the pandemic. We will never know the quantity of deaths, but we know preventative medical care reduces deaths.

Whether hospitals get more from Covid patients/deaths is not true. Data for 2017 shows that the average Medicare payments for "respiratory infections with major comorbidity" was $13,297 while Medicare has authorized $13,000 payments for Covid. For deaths, The average Medicare payment for respiratory system diagnosis with ventilator support greater than 96 hours" was $40,218 and the Covid payment for ventilation was $39,000. Not a significant difference. Part of the first Covid relief package included reimbursements to hospitals for Covid treatment of uninsured people, so that has skewed some of the analytical reviews of covid vs non-covid reimbursements.

There has been no evidence of any fraudulent reporting of Covid Illness or Death. There was the motorcycle accident in Florida. It was initially reported in the preliminary data as a covid death. The CDC has 2 information streams, reporting from health care providers for preliminary information, and Death Certificates for final results. The motorcycle death was corrected in the final results. There was also a car crash death in Pennsylvania atributed to Covid. The crash was caused by a severe coughing fit, and the death was not a result of injuries sustained in the crash.

Any system to collect and report on large sets of data is going to be flawed. When presented with anomolies you have to ask, how significant is this and is it an error or fraud ( ie: with or without intent )

Sources:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/hospital-payments-and-the-covid-19-death-count/

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/infectious-disease.htm

https://www.bea.gov/news/2021/gross...rent-dollar GDP decreased 2.3,(tables 1 and 3).

 

[backinblue]

https://portal.ct.gov/-/media/Coronavirus/20210120-DPH-Travel-Advisory.pdf

$500

Steep. Not steep. Call it what you like

It could be $50,000, it really doesn't matter if it can't be enforced. The state would have to first track my car to know that I drove out of state, and once they determined I did, they would need a 24/7 stakeout of my home for 10 days to make sure I don't leave. Like I said, it's really not more than a request or suggestion of how we should act. This is way off topic of what was being discussed.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

What makes you think a "scientist" is trustworthy. How many still peddle global warming... oh no now itx man made climate change, because the warming trend started reversing... No science doesnt get their facts from media, people do. Media is less trustworthy than scientists. But these details are to keep you too busy to see the real threat. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Every time you find some isdue yiu want to stand behind, look at who is making money off peddeling that info first. Less government, less regulation, less corupt officials getting thier pocket lined.

Trusting scientist like the ones in England on global warning? The same scientist that were caught manipulated data. Those scientist?

Dr. Fauci? He's the one that has changed his position so many times we no longer know where he stands. Curious why he is not part of the Biden Administration. Now he is just another Federal Employee.

And don't forget, the world is flat. Don't trust science!

Well the Vikings figured that one out. Yet there are still scientist that will tell you Columbus was the first to North America.

The bold part is not quite true, especially in CT where as you know there are travel restrictions. I have a house in CT and one in MD, so like you I am subject to CT restrictions. I cannot go to MD and return to CT without being tested or be subject to quarantine. With test results running 3 days, that means I cannot travel to my other home (in a safer area than CT) for a quick weekend to take care of business without taking a number of vacation days. Guilty (infected) until proven innocent.

Which is the logic behind covid passports. Unless you have one you would be considered infected with liberties restricted.

So yeah, you might be free to not get vaccinated, but penalized in freedoms without it.

That's just wrong

I would say the restrictions on travel in CT are unconstitutional. The State has no rights to restrict your interstate travels.

jgtrucking wrote;
“What makes you think a "scientist" is trustworthy.”

They are policed by their own.
How far would I get here on TF trying to convince you a 4cyl engine was smoother than a six? The guys would tear you apart.

btw I miss trucking.

You are certainly free to break the law / regulations, but if you do in CT you are subject to steep fines.

These are NOT laws. Many are simply Executive Orders which are beginning to show theu are unconstitutional. Well unless you are Governor Cuomo.

Perspective is so lost on this topic in discussions everywhere.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

Per that latest data, the mortality rate is 1.7% since the beginning of this mess when no one knew just how to treat it. That is to say, if you do contract it 1.7% have died.

But with 332 million in the US, 8.4% of the US has contracted it.

0.15% of the US has died from it.

And that's taking all data at face value, which many do not

How many trillions have now been spent on a disease that has killed 0.15% of the population? Can you really call something like that a Pandemic? Is it worth the trillions, destruction of businesses and family wealth, and impairment of liberties, for that?

Its a judgement call. I think not.

Good data points. Thanks for sharing

So therein lies the balance.

Take your chances with a never-before-tried approach to the vaccine (which has some deaths reported) or take your chances with your 1.7% chance of death if you get Covid.

Neither choice is wrong. You still have to make it. And it should be no one's business but your own which choice is made.

Yet 99.8% of folks that get the China Flu recover from it? mmmm

 

[Benthic2]

State requirements for travel restrictions are legal....they can't keep you from leaving a state, but they can require everyone who enters a state to conform to certain restrictions.

In Mass the fine is $500 PER DAY!!! That could get VERY expensive

Increased testing capacity would alleviate the vaccination distribution problems and resistance to it. For example in the article linked below the Miami Heat ( Basketbapp team ) is having fans pass by dogs trained to smell covid. If the dog says you can't go in, you can't go in. (Link below)
If tests were plentiful, cheap and fast that would allow businesses to open. You go see your barber you take a test, want to go in a movie theater, take a test. It would help identify the non symptomatic people so they could quarantine, which would cut down on the spread substantially. It would also allow businesses to open and be great for the economy.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/28/health/covid-19-miami-heat-dogs-explainer-wellness/index.html

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

State requirements for travel restrictions are legal....they can't keep you from leaving a state, but they can require everyone who enters a state to conform to certain restrictions.

In Mass the fine is $500 PER DAY!!! That could get VERY expensive

Increased testing capacity would alleviate the vaccination distribution problems and resistance to it. For example in the article linked below the Miami Heat ( Basketbapp team ) is having fans pass by dogs trained to smell covid. If the dog says you can't go in, you can't go in. (Link below)
If tests were plentiful, cheap and fast that would allow businesses to open. You go see your barber you take a test, want to go in a movie theater, take a test. It would help identify the non symptomatic people so they could quarantine, which would cut down on the spread substantially. It would also allow businesses to open and be great for the economy.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/28/health/covid-19-miami-heat-dogs-explainer-wellness/index.html

If tested your theory of interstate travel would fall apart. At least in the USA.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

This will be fun to watch.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/d...ues-over-covid-19-vaccine-mandate/ar-BB1e7Ylh

 

[Hippocampus]

Well Covid was the third leading cause of death in 2020. Apparently this is trivial according to some posters here.
Attributable death even higher.
Oh well....carry on.

 

[FWT]

This will be fun to watch.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/d...ues-over-covid-19-vaccine-mandate/ar-BB1e7Ylh

"The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's advisory committee on immunization practices stated last summer in public session that vaccines under emergency use authorizations may not be mandated. "

 

[Benthic2]

This will be fun to watch.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/d...ues-over-covid-19-vaccine-mandate/ar-BB1e7Ylh

This should never have gone to court. The warden should have had rock solid proof before he implemented that policy and if he doesn't, he shouldn't have mandated the vaccine. Failing that I would think that the officer's union rep would have been able to find resolution. I'm not legal scholar but I'd bet the warden loses this and ends up with a lot of egg on his face.

 

[FWT]

This should never have gone to court. The warden should have had rock solid proof before he implemented that policy and if he doesn't, he shouldn't have mandated the vaccine. Failing that I would think that the officer's union rep would have been able to find resolution. I'm not legal scholar but I'd bet the warden loses this and ends up with a lot of egg on his face.

No shock there. People are BS-ing their way through this and shout-down blame-shaming any dissent. From the start. First masks don't work. Then they do. Then use 3 masks. Nope that's not necessary. Shut everything down or we all die. OOPS, Florida didn't and is doing fine. Its one big middle school science project. At a very high cost in dollars, kids education, lives, businesses, and the list goes on and on.

 

[SteveK]

Well Covid was the third leading cause of death in 2020. Apparently this is trivial according to some posters here.
Attributable death even higher.
Oh well....carry on.

How about a link? I would like to follow where you get your info.
I have searched and found a source suggesting 3rd leading cause. Scientific America

This is one of the problems. Your CDC appears to be 1-2 years behind in saying what the rates were, though they have stats for 2019 HERE which we can compare when 2020 stats are released.

What I find interesting is the graph at scientific america showing a covid spike above then down to become the third. At the very same time death from the #1-heart & 2-cancer causes are dropping rapidly as is the death from flu and pneumonia.

 

[Crankyank]

Good data points. Thanks for sharing



Yet 99.8% of folks that get the China Flu recover from it? mmmm

The "good data points" you are referring to show that 1.7% of people who catch Covid-19 die from it, therefore only 98.3% who catch it recover. And "recover" also leaves the chance of lasting medical effects from having had it. And despite your repeated assertions, Covid-19 is not a form of influenza.

 

[Hippocampus]

https://usafacts.org/articles/top-causes-death-united-states-heart-disease-cancer-and-covid-19/