Update on Russian Trawler#2

[TheAtomicDog]

Wow! You're really going to town on the cleaning up! Want to come back to the states for a little while and help me with MY bilges?!?

I still have the engine room's oily bilges to deal with, the lazerette and the chain locker. I'm afraid you'll have to manage on your own

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Pretty awe inspiring to me. Both you and your wife are to be commended for the scope of work you have taken on. I love to see old stuff brought back to life. Hard work, sometimes grindingly hard (sorry, word play intended).

Thanks for keeping us posted. I am really enjoying this rebuild.

Thanks!

 

[TheAtomicDog]

You will know of course that you can dilute your diesel with 25% Paraffin to ease starting and running your diesels.
Good luck with your project and well done, treat yourself to a Stolichnaya !
p.s

This is a good tip, and thanks! If you are ever in my area, let me know. There is much better vodka

By the way, owatrol has a huge line of products and they are available here! Thanks for this!

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Yes, how do you turn RUST into ZINK

Seems a lot of rust converters work this way. They convert the rust to zinc phosphate.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Won’t oily bilges help solve the rust problem?
You have water in the bilges I assume. Where does the water come from? The prop shaft seal/stuffing box? Where else?

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Won’t oily bilges help solve the rust problem?
You have water in the bilges I assume. Where does the water come from? The prop shaft seal/stuffing box? Where else?

There is a bucket under the stuffing box, which is currently almost empty and what's in there is frozen. Whatever is in the bilge there won't freeze so I'm guessing the majority of whats in there is the antifreeze I spilled winterizing the engine. That would be on top of the oil and grease and everything else that was already in there. But it's not much. Probably two pumps of a manual pump will clear it. But yes, I don't expect to see much rust once I get down to metal. It's the years of dried gunk that will be a challenge in the engine room. There is a fair bit of rust in the battery compartment, though. Meh.

 

[TheAtomicDog]

By the way, Happy International Women's Day!

 

[DarrenCharles]

Easy way to remove rust from iron is soak in diluted muriatic acid. Will look like new in short order.

Muriatic acid is Hydrochloric Acid. A better choice for rust removal is phosphoric acid, which is what is in many of rust remover products in the store. HCl works faster than phosphoric acid, but it is difficult to stop it from reacting with the base metal. Here is a good description of what happens in more detail and the chemical reaction equations for both acids. https://sciencing.com/liquids-tarnish-penny-faster-8758652.html

 

[DarrenCharles]

Have you considered applying a 2-part urethane spray foam insulation to the exterior walls to replace the existing? https://www.amazon.com/Dow-Froth-Spray-Insulation-Class/dp/B019G0KJ1Y

If installed well, there are no air gaps and therefore no way for water vapor to reach the steel walls, so no condensation. You might have to cover this with something for fire protection. I have used this product applied directly to brick walls. It insulated, air sealed and strengthened the walls. Would be interested in comments about this technique on boats.

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Have you considered applying a 2-part urethane spray foam insulation to the exterior walls to replace the existing? https://www.amazon.com/Dow-Froth-Spray-Insulation-Class/dp/B019G0KJ1Y

Actually, I was talking to a company today about this very thing. They bring a crew and can spray all the living spaces in just a few hours. I like the idea. The only reservation I have is that they used foam around the portlights and there is a lot of rust underneath. They sprayed directly on the steel, so maybe it will be better on the paint?

 

[DarrenCharles]

Actually, I was talking to a company today about this very thing. They bring a crew and can spray all the living spaces in just a few hours. I like the idea. The only reservation I have is that they used foam around the portlights and there is a lot of rust underneath. They sprayed directly on the steel, so maybe it will be better on the paint?

I think it would be a good idea to prep the steel as you would for paint and follow through with the painting - not let the spray foam take the place of paint. Make sure the paint is compatible with the urethane CLOSED CELL spray foam. The spray foam bond is tenacious. It would probably only take an hour to spray foam the hull. It moves quickly.

 

[OldDan1943]

Actually, I was talking to a company today about this very thing. They bring a crew and can spray all the living spaces in just a few hours. I like the idea. The only reservation I have is that they used foam around the portlights and there is a lot of rust underneath. They sprayed directly on the steel, so maybe it will be better on the paint?

Spray on insulation is something to consider but you may want to install some 3 or 4 inch PVC piping for future wire ways and pipe runs.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
While spray on foam may seem like a good idea, I am loathe to apply any fixes that are irreversible without major hassles. IF one has to do any repairs or alterations, something that is applied "permanently" may inhibit any work that needs be done.



Think 3M 5200, for example. How many of us have attempted to remove this Devil's goop to do repairs and end up breaking parts off and having to replace them?

 

[Capt. Jon]

RT is right! I love spray foam but it does not lend itself well for future upgrade unless you plan accordingly. Chases for wires and plumbing are a good idea but one never really knows what the future holds.

Also if you ever encounter a need to replace an outer skin section does the foam become a hindrance to its replacement?

 

[Ski in NC]

I too like spray foam, I did it in my new dirt house, really helps with heat/AC bills, but there is a downside. Chiseling that stuff out to do a repair is a major PITA. Knew that going in, did it anyway.

On this boat, since the rib spacing looks pretty even, some foam panels could be cut and fit with a mild adhesive. Multiple thinner layers could fit to the hull shape. They could be restrained by whatever skin you use to form the interior.

Just thinking aloud..

 

[OldDan1943]

I’m in FL waters and I complain about the need for insulation, especially in the overhead. I needed it in the overhead for my N46 too. I shall continue to complain about for my AT34 too. Lol
Per the interior of the hull, not a consideration. I will leave that to those who cannot escape the cold waters.
Just make sure the insulation does support nor contribute to a fire hazard.

 

[KnotYet]

Having had a steel boat, the #1 consideration is surface prep prior to painting.
#2 is a properly applied 2-part epoxy paint to all exposed steel.
I never used spray-on foam insulation but I would only do it above the waterline.
The bilge spaces can be kept 'warm(ish)' and dry with good ventilation.
You'll get the most benefit above the waterline with the least penalty come repair time.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Spray on insulation is something to consider but you may want to install some 3 or 4 inch PVC piping for future wire ways and pipe runs.

Preplanned wire and plumbing runs are definitely part of the equation. It's a valuable tip!

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Greetings,
While spray on foam may seem like a good idea, I am loathe to apply any fixes that are irreversible without major hassles. IF one has to do any repairs or alterations, something that is applied "permanently" may inhibit any work that needs be done.



Think 3M 5200, for example. How many of us have attempted to remove this Devil's goop to do repairs and end up breaking parts off and having to replace them?

Yes, this is a consideration. I am having to scrape this stuff off the few places it was used and it is tedious. The advantages are that it won't leave an air gap and one is unlikely to develop, and it is much thinner than other options, which will make liveable space bigger. Downsides have been stated; hard to remove.

How often do you guys dig into your interior walls? I can think of a few scenarios, and with a steel boat, any time I have to use a welder for a mod or repair, everything flammable or meltable will have to be removed (from both sides if it's an interior surface). This will be true regardless of the insulation used, but foam will make it less pleasant for sure. Not sure how often it really comes up. Would love to hear from you guys about this.

 

[TheAtomicDog]

I too like spray foam, I did it in my new dirt house, really helps with heat/AC bills, but there is a downside. Chiseling that stuff out to do a repair is a major PITA. Knew that going in, did it anyway.

On this boat, since the rib spacing looks pretty even, some foam panels could be cut and fit with a mild adhesive. Multiple thinner layers could fit to the hull shape. They could be restrained by whatever skin you use to form the interior.

Just thinking aloud..

My plan was to use a similar method to what to PO did, but use marine grade wood and replace the (expletive)styrofoam with something more manageable. The problem is that the insulation I have been looking at is quite thick and won't do as good a job as foam. Also thinking out loud. Not sure which way to go now...

 

[TheAtomicDog]

I never used spray-on foam insulation but I would only do it above the waterline.

Thanks! Don't worry, I will not be insulating anything below the floor. Nothing down there needs to be comfortable. The PO used the bilge space as a root cellar. Maybe wine would do ok down there?

 

[KnotYet]

Thanks! Don't worry, I will not be insulating anything below the floor. Nothing down there needs to be comfortable. The PO used the bilge space as a root cellar. Maybe wine would do ok down there?

Where you are right now beer would chill nicely!

 

[DarrenCharles]

Or the OP could use a hybrid approach. Use sheets of aluminum faced Polyiso for the large surface areas and then spray foam around the sheets and the smaller difficult areas for an air tight seal.

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Where you are right now beer would chill nicely!

Yes!

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Or the OP could use a hybrid approach. Use sheets of aluminum faced Polyiso for the large surface areas and then spray foam around the sheets and the smaller difficult areas for an air tight seal.

This is probably the approach I will take. After some research I am a bit cold on foam.

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Not enough progress to warrant a whole new update, but I have been tearing apart the pilot house (even broke a window )and found a hidden SpongeBob.
Thought you may want to see some pics:

 

[TheAtomicDog]

Also, here is a before and after on the rust converter. Hope it's obvious which is which:

 

[FF]

"I will not be insulating anything below the floor. Nothing down there needs to be comfortable."

But YOU need to be comfortable.

During cold weather the bilge should be sealed from the boats interior and a rug or two used as floor insulation . Washable bathroom carpet works well where snow and mud will collect from coming on board.

When its hot out opening the bilge to the cabin allows the interior to fill with cool heavy bilge air and any heated air vented out hatches or in the rain with Dorade Boxes

 

[dannc]

Yet another insulation approach is to use a foam product similar to the products from this company, https://www.armacell.us/applications/systems/marine/. One boat builder used this product to provide a thermal break with the steel hull. The product comes in various thickness. I think the builder used one inch thick foam glued against the hull then filled in with batt insulation. The company has, or had, foam with glue and without. The builder tried both, but eventually went with the preglued product since it was much faster and easier to install.



That seems to be the best possible solution. Provides quite a bit of R value, the batt is easy to remove if needed, the sheet foam prevents air from getting to the hull, protects the paint, and the foam is sorta easy to remove if needed.



If using expanding foam make sure it is closed cell not open.



Later,
Dan

 

[TheAtomicDog]

FF,

I have been thinking a lot about this topic. I am planning the interior now and apart from maintenance access I am thinking about this as well. Boats; so much to consider.

Thanks!