Twin Engine Trawler Maneuvering Expectations

[GMS]

We are under contract to purchase a twin engine trawler (56’ DeFever) and we had an interesting experience during our sea trial.

During close quarter maneuvering the captain (long time owner) was using a great deal of rudder positioning in addition to the twin engines (and still seemed to have significant difficulty controlling the boat). It was a fairly windy day (like 12-15 kts), but regardless we were still surprised by the apparent lack of maneuverability.

We are coming from a Meridian 490, so a MUCH lighter boat, but one that does get pushed around in the wind. On our current boat, even in worse conditions, I would have full control on engines alone. Are my expectations that this DeFever would be similar unrealistic?

The owner mentioned that the boat has oversized stabilizers (12 sqft) and a 4ft hull extension, which he attributes some of the maneuvering characteristics to those modifications, certainly believable, but still seems like the boat should be capable of maneuvering on engines alone.

Definitely would expect a heavy boat to be slower to react, but didn’t expect it to not be controllable on engines alone.

Thoughts?

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. G. We also had stabilizers on our Cheoy Lee 46'. When I forgot to center the stabilzers she was quite difficult to maneuver. Little to no logical control.
I used to use the rudders quite a bit in tight circumstances. Out of practice so I doubt I could do it now. Usually, transmissions and throttles only.

 

[GMS]

RT,

Thanks for the input! Just to clarify, if your stabilizers were parked, then engines alone were sufficient?

To the best of our knowledge the stabilizers were still parked (had moments before been unpinned).

Cheers,
G

 

[Flatswing]

Absent issues fighting stabilizers not centered, the central issue is likely the large keel that many DeFever trawlers feature coupled with more current than you might expect.
In my experience, I have had no problem walking planing boats (even large ones) sideways using twin engines alone. Slower, large keel, displacement speed trawlers like my previous GB36 & present DeFever 49 RPH simply won’t walk sideways on engines alone, moreover they are much more susceptible to current than wind for the same reason. My DeFever has both bow & stern thrusters, although I don’t need or use them in every docking situation, they are invaluable for all the others.

 

[GMS]

Flatswing,

Thanks for the informative input. The maneuvering difficulties did not involve trying to walk the boat sideways, it was simple close quarter turns leaving a marina with no current (plenty of wind, but no current).

I am sure a stern thruster would help, but as we haven’t closed on this beautiful boat, we are trying to fully educate ourselves.

 

[RT Firefly]

Yes

 

[oceancrosser]

I wouldn't expect you to have any issues with controlling the boat in close quarters.

We frequently will use a combination of differential power assisted by short bursts from my bow thruster to effect directional control. I will be sure my stabilizers are in the "parked" position and the rudder is centered before backing into our slip.

Congratulations on your DeFever; you will love her!

Rusty
M/V Kristine
DeFever 53 POC
Iuka, MS

 

[Portage_Bay]

Common advice for maneuvering twin screw boats is to center the rudders and use engines alone. This is good to a point. But you are leaving a useful control surface unused. In some situations I will use rudders as well. A well timed rudder in the direction you want the bow to turn along with opposing engines will make the boat pivot as though it had powerful bow and stern thrusters.

Don't forget to center the rudders when the maneuver is complete. And don't try it for the first time in close quarters.

 

[SeaDogAK]

I’m not sure about a 56, but my Defever 49 RPH is maneuverable enough. I moved up from a Tollycraft 37, which is much lighter and more maneuverable. The weight of the Defever and the deep keel make it respond a lot slower.

I almost never use rudder for low speed maneuvering. If it’s not responding, I will either use the bow thruster or add more throttle before I’d touch the rudder.

The key is to anticipate a maneuver, plan ahead, and keep it slow. Wind is less of a challenge than current, given the weight of the boat.

It takes some practice but when I do it badly it is generally operator error rather than anything wrong with the boat. I certainly would not have been deterred from buying the boat by anything about its maneuverability.

 

[SteveK]

Maybe it was stage fright. The experienced owner lost instinct control with spectators on board. Had to be there to know what OP is trying to convey.

 

[READY]

My Hatteras 48 LRC might be similar in handling. As others stated I rarely use rudder in docking. If leaving in a fairway I tend to only use engines but if wind was really strong might add some rudder. I have no thrusters.

Would be nice to have a bow thruster for the most challenging conditions but not a requirement. I don't think in a fairway a thruster would ever be required but it is a quick way to move the bow.

I think you will be able to adjust and enjoy the DeFever. My dock neighbor has a 49 and while he does have a bow thruster I think he does not rely on it. In docking you might work your fenders a bit less if you have a thruster.

 

[guy with a boat]

You mention that the boat has 4-foot hull extension. Are the props and rudders in the original locations? If so (likely so), that could make the boat less willing to pivot. Hopefully not enough so to be a problem, but worth considering and investigating. Better to know the answer before you write the check so you can make a fully informed decision.

 

[psneeld]

When you say "captain: (long time owner)....did you mean that he was a pro captain or just the long time owner. Or both?

Really doesn't matter, maybe he just wasn't a good boat handler, as a big, heavy boat in 10-15 knot winds and no current shouldn't be too difficult to control. If it was...could there have been growth on the props? Or maybe like SteveK mentioned "stagefright"......

Using rudder on some twins is common and necessary....and often used by more experienced captains when a boat is having difficulty doing what it supposed to be doing.

If the boat doesn't have a long history of insurance claims for dock rash or worse...it may have been a one day issue or none at all depending on who was handling it.

Extensions can alter handling capabilities... hard to say what effect this one has so far.

 

[mvweebles]

As PSneeld notes, using rudders with twins is a fairly advanced procedure. It's easy to get confused and make counterproductive maneuvers (at least it is for me). While the 4-foot extension could not help maneuverability, doubtful it does much to erode it either (if anything).

Maneuverability is one of a handful of major demonstrations for a sea trial. Sounds like this boat either failed this aspect of a sea trial, or is marginal at best. Depending on how you plan to use the boat, you may want to enhance your core understanding of the issue and assure the boat will suit your intended usage before you sign-offs on purchase (assuming there's time). If there is indeed a handing issue and you're in a windy area and plan to take friends and family out every Saturday, you're setting yourself up for stressful outings as you dread returning to the dock each afternoon.

You might consider hiring a professional captain to repeat the sea trial. Look for the captain brokers use to arrange boats for boat shows - those guys are masters at close quarter maneuvers.

Good luck

Peter

EDIT - longshot suggestion as I've only seen it once, but check to make sure the props are counter-rotating. The starboard prop should turn clockwise (viewed from astern in forward), port side should be anti-clockwise. Extremely unlikely, but if the boat was repowered, possible and would explain extraordinarily difficult handling.

 

[keith c]

As usual the mainship forum brain trust is spot on. I find fiddling with the wheel slows down the real imput needed, the engines. Moving the shifters needs to become second nature and this only comes with practice.When I got twins On windless days I would go and come from my slip 10-15 times in a practice session. One also needs to develope the use of the leaning on pilings in/around your slip. If you can pin your boat against a piling the twins will allow the boat to pivit in order to get into the slip

 

[MYTraveler]

IMO / IME:
1. Stabilizers should not be active during close quarters maneuvering and when not active should not have any noticeable impact on maneuverability. If the captain of your boat was experienced and had them on, he should / would have instantly noticed and turned them off (standby, so they don't flop around).

2. A heavier boat is less susceptible to wind than a light one. My boat displaces 100,000 pounds and even though it has a flybridge, 15 knots of wind would not be a factor (at least not in the hands of someone experienced enough to predict the relatively minor and slow acting affects).

3. With twin engines, a boat should be able to pivot in its own length.

4. I rarely use my rudders for close quarter maneuvering. The only exception is when trying to walk the boat sideways, which I rarely need to do. If I am a bit further from the doc than I wish to be, I will generally pivot the bow in, get it secured, then pivot the stern. Once in a while, I will use the bow thruster, but generally only if I am being lazy or am short handed.

 

[SteveK]

Have never had thrusters. In theory, twins can pivot the stern, add bow thruster, would that not walk the boat sideways. I can imagine doing that.

 

[MYTraveler]

Have never had thrusters. In theory, twins can pivot the stern, add bow thruster, would that not walk the boat sideways. I can imagine doing that.

With a bow thruster, walking sideways is easy with a twin. But it can be done on most twins with rudders and throttles alone, and without any need for a bow thruster.

 

[psneeld]

Some twins don't pivot worth a crap...but they are unusual.

The worst I ever drove was an early 2000's Sea ray Sundancer. Tiny props and tiny rudders, close together....plus a hull configuration that either had tunnels or was close to that seemed to me to be the problem. It was also long and thin below the waterline. It was designed for speed, not handling or traveling slow.

If this vessels alteration had any similar effect, then I would not want to buy it. Even with thrusters although they might make it a dream to handle as the design might have other flaws that haven't surfaced yet.

 

[Portage_Bay]

I started the thread drift on using rudders with twins. So I'll elaborate a bit. As psneeld says it is an advanced technique. Best used after mastering handling the boat with engines only and without thrusters or at least occasional minimal thruster use.

I'll describe one of the situations where I've routinely used rudders with twins. This is a boat without thrusters. I needed to put her into a slip where I had about 6 ft for and aft as I made the 90 turn into a slip with about 10" clearance either side. Prevailing wind blowing down the fair way so that it was on the beam as I finished my turn. Hitting a neighbor's boat is of course unacceptable. It was a covered slip with the roof supports right on
the corners of the fingers. Made of 4x4s about 20 ft tall, antique structure, more than a gentle bump might bring the house down.

As Keith C says one should not be fiddling with the rudders when maneuvering a twin.

My technique was as follows. Once in the marina proceed dead slow using the oft forgotten gear of neutral to keep the speed down. This was done on engines only with rudders centered as I came down the main fairway and turned 90 degrees into the smaller slip fairway.
As I approached the slip in neutral I would first order 25 degrees rudder using the full followup control. With that control I can order a rudder angle then it's hands off as the steering does it's own magic to attain 25 degrees and hold it there. I don't need to watch the rudder angle indicator, hands back on the shifters, eyes over the bow. At just the right moment oppose the engines and she'd spin "on a dime". As the pivot is nearly complete order rudders centered then enter the slip on engines alone. So just two rudder orders.

What that technique did for me was to drastically increase the rate of turn while reducing turn radius and move the pivot point to near the center fore and aft of the boat. In short a very precise turn executed very quickly with no need for advanced throttle and all the risks that brings in close quarters.

Using the rudders with the engines is not an "instead of" it's an "in addition to" control. I found many other close quarters situations where the technique was very useful.

 

[rslifkin]

That's exactly how rudders should be used on a twin. As an additional input to get a faster spin or other situations like that where engines alone won't do the job. Basically leave them centered until you need them, but when you need them, use them.

 

[GMS]

oft forgotten gear of neutral

This might be my favorite comment in the thread so far ;-)

All the input has been very useful and reinforces how we believed the boat should behave.

The owner (23 years, not a licensed captain) was clearly off his game and not excited about the weather on sea trial day - so, we suspect that contributed greatly to what we experienced.

In the end, we will be asking for an additional sea trial to check close quarters handling and one other issue that occurred on the first outing. Using a professional captain is an interesting suggestion, but would prefer to run it myself (understanding that might make owners uncomfortable).

 

[SteveK]

"Spin on a dime"
I use that often when the end berth makes you back out into the fairway, once clear port into reverse, SB forward, wheel hard over to port, increase rpm on both and spin on a dime.

 

[Steve1.0]

I use rudders when coming along side a dock (or lock chamber wall) to kick the stern in after nosing the bow into the position where I want to stop. With the outboard prop going astern and walking toward the dock, the rudder hard over away from dock and small fwd input from inboard prop over the rudder, pushes it right in. A thruster would be nice for pinning her when the wind is pushing away from the dock.
p.s. My GB 46 will not walk sideways. :-(

 

[MYTraveler]

I use rudders when coming along side a dock (or lock chamber wall) to kick the stern in after nosing the bow into the position where I want to stop. With the outboard prop going astern and walking toward the dock, the rudder hard over away from dock and small fwd input from inboard prop over the rudder, pushes it right in. A thruster would be nice for pinning her when the wind is pushing away from the dock.
p.s. My GB 46 will not walk sideways. :-(

Your comment got me wondering how I dock without rudders. It is sort of second nature, so I had to think hard to make sure I do not use them at the end. Then I realized that I approach the dock at about a 20 degree angle, and get close enough that my bow deck overhangs the dock (generally starboard side). Then I put the stbd gear in forward, port in reverse, the boat pivot and ends up parallel to the dock and just over a fender's diameter away.

 

[SteveK]

Your comment got me wondering how I dock without rudders. It is sort of second nature, so I had to think hard to make sure I do not use them at the end. Then I realized that I approach the dock at about a 20 degree angle, and get close enough that my bow deck overhangs the dock (generally starboard side). Then I put the stbd gear in forward, port in reverse, the boat pivot and ends up parallel to the dock and just over a fender's diameter away.

It is hard to explain what comes instinctively after trial and error practise develops the skill since each time is slightly different due to wind and currents or weather.
As I moor on the end of the fairway I approach at 90* using boat momentum to finish into a parallel position to dock using twins and hard over rudder in order to then straight into the slip.

 

[rslifkin]

My boat has strong enough prop walk that even in significant wind or approaching at a steep angle the rudders are pretty much not needed for the final pivot up against a dock. Usually the majority of the pivot is done just with reverse on the off side engine which also stops the boat in the process.

 

[RickyD]

Here is my observation: I had a Lien Hwa 47' with twins and I learned to spin it quite well. When I moved over the to the Cal 55 I felt that the 47 spun 3 times easier. I don't often use the bow thruster to spin but I do use more or less throttle. You know....scutt up towards a dock, put the stb engine in reverse with port in neutral. Oops, not much happening, ok, more throttle on the stb. Ok, there we go. I also use the rudders a bit.

 

[Cold Duck]

You mention that the boat has 4-foot hull extension. Are the props and rudders in the original locations? If so (likely so), that could make the boat less willing to pivot. Hopefully not enough so to be a problem, but worth considering and investigating. Better to know the answer before you write the check so you can make a fully informed decision.

This is a good point. The Mainship 350/390s added a 4' extension and it makes low speed maneuvering crappy at best. Without the thruster docking would be a real test with single engine. Small high speed rudder placed 5ft from end of ship makes it worthless in low speed docking. Just center and use thruster. Not the same situation as yours, but it shows that adding length to boat can drastically change low speed handling.