Tender towing problem VivieRae II

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Why-oh-why-oh-why…was he towing a skiff in the open ocean?

Jim
 
There is another thread about this. Be that as it may, all along the US east coast I’ve seen super/mega yachts towing similar sizable fishing or center console boats. I wouldn’t say common as pick up trucks in Iowa but plenty enough that it seemed routine among them.

If there is a crew error I’d wonder about possible lack of lookout, when they discovered they were missing a boat and efforts to keep the tow rig from fouling props assuming that was possible. In heavy seas I could envision a big following sea shoving the now peripatetic tow line into the boat. But still a bunch of facts we don’t have.
 
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Greetings,
Where's "Aussie Rules" (Greg Norman) when you need her?


iu
 
RTF, what are you saying? If your tender won't fit on deck on the mothership then one of the boats is the wrong size?

Could be something in that.....
 
Comodave said:
I certainly am not an expert on salvage rights, but I think if someone were to tow the boat in they would stake a claim on some part of the residual value of the boat. Depending on how difficult the salvage was the award can be either a large or relatively small award. Depends on difficulty of salvage and how well the preserved the boat being salvaged. But I think that any towing company could put a line on it and salvage it. There is something called a Lloyds Open Form, or something like that, that gives the salvor rights to making a claim based on difficulty and residual value.
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You are on the right track. Here is a decent primer on Salvage Law.

https://www.bluesteinlawoffice.com/maritime-law-articles/salvage/

Bottom line is anyone can put a line on and try to salvage (without a contract). Any succesful salvor can claim a salvage award based on a %age of the value of the vessel salved. LOF is a contract that is commonly used if a Contract for Salvage is agreed upon between the parties.
~A
 
sunchaser said:
Delfin
Thanks for the post. It would be interesting to know if an accomplished diver and necessary gear was onboard.

Star's recent blog detailing travels from Hawaii to Guam and onward related a fishing net that shut them down. One of the crew was an accomplished diver with onboard equipment ready for this type of mid ocean shutdown event. It took awhile but the prop was cleared of the net.
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It was no fun, but having dived on a vessel in Georgia Strait to inspect damage from a log strike I have to wonder why not dive to clear the props in this case? Or perhaps heave to or lie ahull and wait for calmer seas rather than abandon ship? And I certainly get why, if your idea of a tender is 38' you're going to have to tow it, but 38'? And is floating cordage hard to get down under? Who tows a tender with sinking line? I must be missing something, but this set of events as described don't seem to align with a 'professional crew' running the show.
 
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My question is if the conditions were crappy why was the tender being towed instead of being secured on deck? Surely an 'experienced' crew would know this??
 
AlanT said:
You are on the right track. Here is a decent primer on Salvage Law.

https://www.bluesteinlawoffice.com/maritime-law-articles/salvage/

Bottom line is anyone can put a line on and try to salvage (without a contract). Any succesful salvor can claim a salvage award based on a %age of the value of the vessel salved. LOF is a contract that is commonly used if a Contract for Salvage is agreed upon between the parties.
~A
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You can ask for a percentage of value, but if little or no risk to the salvage crew or vessel, and just putting a line on and towing to safe port, then the reward may be no more than the current towing rates for that type of job in that part of the world.

Many examples of big rewards for salvage during a stom, then miserly awards for salvage after the storm.
 
2savage said:
My question is if the conditions were crappy why was the tender being towed instead of being secured on deck? Surely an 'experienced' crew would know this??
Click to expand...

Just one problem - a 38' tender doesn't fit on the deck of a N96.
 
psneeld said:
You can ask for a percentage of value, but if little or no risk to the salvage crew or vessel, and just putting a line on and towing to safe port, then the reward may be no more than the current towing rates for that type of job in that part of the world.

Many examples of big rewards for salvage during a stom, then miserly awards for salvage after the storm.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, the value of the equipment used in salving; the risk to salvors for engaging in the operation; any damage to salvage vessel or its equip, all weigh in the court's judgement and determination of the eventual salvage award, and as noted if the effort is unsuccessful there is no award. Finally, the award is a percentage of the value of the recovered vessel & its cargo (ie in its state after being salved) and is covered by a standard AIHC/ITC Marine Hull policy.
~A
 
AlanT said:
Absolutely, the value of the equipment used in salving; the risk to salvors for engaging in the operation; any damage to salvage vessel or its equip, all weigh in the court's judgement and determination of the eventual salvage award, and as noted if the effort is unsuccessful there is no award. Finally, the award is a percentage of the value of the recovered vessel & its cargo (ie in its state after being salved) and is covered by a standard AIHC/ITC Marine Hull policy.
~A
Click to expand...

The line between salvage for profit and salvage for wreck removal cleanup isn't very clear to the general public.....not even sure it is clear to me after 14 years doing both.

Some salvage jobs are done on a flat rate or even fixed rate such as per foot, hourly rate on certain equipment, etc, etc..... it's not always a percentage of value (maybe in Maritime court...but I don't think I ever worked one of those even though I was involved with over a 100 salvage jobs, mostly small ones though).
 
Is it good advice for recreation boaters to avoid signing salvage contracts if possible but rather contract for a tow?
If that’s not feasible call your boat insurance and have them talk directly to the salvage company?


I know many here tow their dinghies. I have never towed any boat with the mothership. On the sailboat the dinghy was taken off the davits. Turn upside down and deflated. Then extensively lashed to the foredeck. Engine removed. And placed into the anchor locker. This was done for passage. Have been back and forth removing the anchor as well. If left on extensively lashed. Understand big boats do things differently but personally don’t like the concept of storing a dinghy right side up on a swim platform and definitely don’t like the idea of towing a 36’ boat. I’ve had enough trouble getting the length of the towline correct with little (10-12’) dinghies in moderate (force 4) weather as to lead me to stop towing anything except in emergencies.
 
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Actually the salvage contract protects the boater as much as the salvage company... so it behooves one to read them ahead of time online or go to an assistance tower office to review a copy of the different ones that can be offered.

As far as towing dinghies, like many things.... an offshore passage is not an inshore passage (several days max) and that is not an inland passage (not including the Great Lakes). If one considers always doing things for the absolute worst case scenario.... I can't imagine their boating being much fun.
 
There are several towing techniques that can be utilized offshore. Devices such as tow line tension meters, tow vessel to mother ship distance measurement monitoring, cameras and as mentioned by Delfin floating lines. Dual bridle rigging is also a belt and suspenders add on.

The stresses on both boats can be calculated with towing equipment and attachment points designed with appropriated safety factor. I’d guess some TF members with commercial towing knowledge could elaborate further.
 
Open ocean towing happens all the time, so it can be done safely and successfully.


I also think it's rather bold to start off by presuming the crew are incompetent, that their decision making was poor leading up to this, and that we "obviously" know better while sitting in our arm chairs. They have operated all over the world, crossed oceans that most of us will never even see, and have been towing this boat for a long time over long distances, in varied conditions. Chances are pretty good that they know a heck of a lot more than most of us, and have a heck of a lot more experience than most of us.


Problems like this are almost always an unlikely confluence of events that conspire to create a disaster. That's why we call it an accident. Did they add risk by towing a second boat? Absolutely. But was it ill-considered and not properly equipped? I doubt it. I have no doubt there are lessons to be learned, and hopefully we will come to know enough about this to also gain from it.
 
twistedtree said:
Open ocean towing happens all the time, so it can be done safely and successfully....Problems like this are almost always an unlikely confluence of events that conspire to create a disaster. That's why we call it an accident. Did they add risk by towing a second boat? Absolutely. But was it ill-considered and not properly equipped? I doubt it. I have no doubt there are lessons to be learned, and hopefully we will come to know enough about this to also gain from it.
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Thank you for the voice of reason.

Rob
 
sunchaser said:
There are several towing techniques that can be utilized offshore. Devices such as tow line tension meters, tow vessel to mother ship distance measurement monitoring, cameras and as mentioned by Delfin floating lines. Dual bridle rigging is also a belt and suspenders add on.

The stresses on both boats can be calculated with towing equipment and attachment points designed with appropriated safety factor. I’d guess some TF members with commercial towing knowledge could elaborate further.
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This is directly from Chris Allard, CEO of Metal Shark Boats, builder of the tender, close friends with the owner of VivieRae, and passenger on VivieRae for months.


---

The towing system on the Vivie Rae (and the tender is question) is, and remains upon hindsight review, the best I could have imaged and engineered (and I personally engineered some of it). The tow system mirrored what we do for the US Navy on their 40PB (Patrol Boat), which is currently in service with the US Navy and Ukraine (dealing with some other issues). The 40PB being an armored, weaponized, platform meant for the most severe environments in the world.
Alas, the sea can be a worthy foe. The Vivie Rae towed the tender thousands of miles, hundreds of dives, countless fish, and a million memories. In some of the most remote, nasty, tough parts of the world.
 
TT
You are correct in that we are arm chairing this event. Having had hands on involvement with a variety of industrial accidents it is clear that this incident was not an act of God. Rather it is a combination of unsafe acts and practices. I'd guess the owner will delve into this and insure improvements are instituted, particularly with government rescue and insurance questions likely cropping up.
 
First, thanks TT for shifting focus of the speculation away from the crew. I think that is the easy target and results in nothing being learned from the circumstances. I take it for granted that a $7m yacht making global transits commands an experienced and capable crew.

So the right question becomes: assuming a capable crew, what circumstances led to the accident? It's rarely a single event, rather a seed crystal that triggers a daisy-chain. I recally hearing of an accident that started with a poorly tied knot securing a fender. In close-quarters, the helmsman tried to recover the fender but wind overcame him and he ran over a kayaker (no injury) and hit guest dock taking out a pedestal and doing a fair amount of fiberglass damage. It all started with a poorly tied knot and things just crept from there.

My only beef was the original PAE release - Dont know what happened, but wasn't the boat's fault - we're good. Just seemed odd. But so be it. Time will tell - insurance company will get to the bottom and full root-cause may not be released.

QUESTION on towing a relatively large tender. How do you account for difference in waterline length? The N96 will cruise at 11-12 kts. The 36-foot tender wants to cruise at 7.0-7.5 kts. At 10-kts, a 36-footer probably wants to be in the awkward planing transition zone where it throws an enormous bow wake. Secondarily, how do you account for difference in seakeeping ability? A 96-foot Nordhavn can handle extreme conditions. There is virtually no way a 36-footer could be safe in the same conditions. What's the routine?

Peter
 
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mvweebles said:
QUESTION on towing a relatively large tender. How do you account for difference in waterline length? The N96 will cruise at 11-12 kts. The 36-foot tender wants to cruise at 7.0-7.5 kts. At 10-kts, a 36-footer probably wants to be in the awkward planing transition zone where it throws an enormous bow wake. Secondarily, how do you account for difference in seakeeping ability? A 96-foot Nordhavn can handle extreme conditions. There is virtually no way a 36-footer could be safe in the same conditions. What's the routine?

Peter
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I assume the question is for everyone, not just me? 'Cause I have no idea. I personally hate the idea of towing my tender under any conditions, so don't do it. It's a constant debate between my wife and me. She thinks towing would be easier than launching & reloading on deck. I think deploying and recovering a tow looks like a giant PITA, not to mention complications with weather, current, etc. I WAY prefer to bring the tender on deck, and have one less thing to worry about when getting underway and coming into a dock or anchorage.


But I also don't have a desire/need for a large support boat. VivieRae's "tender" is almost half the length of the mothership. But that's important to some people. I know a guy with a Nordhavn 40 or 43 who towed a 25' fishing boat because we was crazy into fishing. That was important to him, so he figured out how to do it, and did so successfully.
 
sunchaser said:
TT
You are correct in that we are arm chairing this event. Having had hands on involvement with a variety of industrial accidents it is clear that this incident was not an act of God. Rather it is a combination of unsafe acts and practices. I'd guess the owner will delve into this and insure improvements are instituted, particularly with government rescue and insurance questions likely cropping up.
Click to expand...


I think there is a lot of space between an Act of God and "unsafe acts and practices". That's what creates the full spectrum of risk for any activity. For something like towing a tender, I think the question is what consideration has been given, and what steps have been taken to tow safely and without damage. One could do a little bit, or a lot, and each will beget a different risk profile. By all indications VivieRae went pretty far to reduce risk and tow safely. Was there still risk? Of course, and they ultimately lost the bet. The only way to not have any towing risk is to not tow.


I think there is a contrasting example which is the guy in Hawaii with his bootleg "bareboat charter" business who owes everyone money, characterizes lawsuits as "documentation of agreements", is unaware of park regulations where he stays, is illegally using a mooring and has been told so, and has no idea whether the mooring can handle his boat (it couldn't). That's not just failure to do diligence on basic seamanship and marine activities, it's blatant disregard of things staring you in the face.


I think these are bookends in the spectrum of risk and diligence.
 
A well designed 36 footer can handle big seas... big breaking seas might be bad, but not necessarily a grave danger to it based on it's water shedding ability.

As far as speed differential, again the tender if lightly loaded and trimmed properly may not be dragging that much by not producing much of a wave. Many boats have a pronounced transition from displacement to planing both because of design and trim....but not all boats do all the time.

Even if the tender had a bad spot at certain speed (s), the crew was probably aware and avoided it. Of course in larger seas, the mothership may have surged and slowed, thus creating the huge forces in the towline and breaking the towing eye on the tender.
 
psneeld said:
A well designed 36 footer can handle big seas... big breaking seas might be bad, but not necessarily a grave danger to it based on it's water shedding ability.

As far as speed differential, again the tender if lightly loaded and trimmed properly may not be dragging that much by not producing much of a wave. Many boats have a pronounced transition from displacement to planing both because of design and trim....but not all boats do all the time.

Even if the tender had a bad spot at certain speed (s), the crew was probably aware and avoided it. Of course in larger seas, the mothership may have surged and slowed, thus creating the huge forces in the towline and breaking the towing eye on the tender.
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I seem to recall that for ocean-tow tugs, they keep very, very long tow lines with an intentional catenary as 'shock absorber.' Any idea what the best practice would be for towing a fairly large tender? I often mention my friend with a Horizon 52 power cat. He also has a Parker 21 center console that he's considered towing shorter distances (anchorages within 40-nms or so). I doubt he'd do it for safety reasons, but I wonder what the best way to do would be if he did?

Peter
 
A cat is a ready made bridle and redundant tow lines....

One from each hull for short tows, for longer....go to a big shackle and add 2 lines from the shackle (or tow ring/ multi connector otherwise known as a fishplate) to the tow eye or 2 redundant points on the tender.

People want to talk safety is all wrong.... operational risk management is the process of doing things that could be dangerous but minimizing or eliminating those hazards so "accidents" are virtually eliminated.

Safety and accidents to me are HUGELY misunderstood and overused words. Once trained in these specialties...your eyes really open.

Towing for cruisers is a perfectly reasonable option for many cruisers, much of the time. Start small and easy and work your way up, go ask someone with experience.... I towed for 14 years without major issues and I had about 2 hrs training under the eyes of the boss. After that it was all OJT.

The curriculum for towing in the USCG towing endorsement class when I was teaching it was all geared to large towing, not assistance towing. Thankfully I had experience with assistance towing to bring reality to the course when I taught it.

Oh yeah...catenary is important but it is only part of the equation... determining the right amount for your rig is tricky unless as Sunchaser posted you have all the towing system monitors. Not sure if they work with nylon towlines because they work in such a way their stretch and weight when dunked helps enormously with shock absorption. The trouble with nylon versus something that doesn't stretch like dyneema (or similar), polyester line or wire/chain is best after a lot of research into the pros and cons of both.
 
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Some here seem to think a 96' towing a 38' tender is unusual. It seems to be routine in a lot of the world. Most of the large motor yachts down in the Bahamas for example, and up the east coast. They do have cover a little closer at hand, but not guaranteed. On those yachts, there is no way to put it onboard. Not something I'd do, but it is routine.
 
Commercial towing is a completely different animal. I worked with one of the largest offshore towing companies based in SF. Their towing rigs were of course steel hawsers of immense length with a catenary, but the tugs were also equipped with sophisticated winches that could constantly adjust the towline to deal with surge in heavy seas, as well as to spread wear. That said, a company with over 300 tugs did occasionally have tow lines part in heavy seas, usually as one noted above due to a combination of adverse events, including weather, improper ballasting, poor decision-making, damage to tow etc. They will also often use a trailing line, specifically so as to have an option if a towline breaks. That is worth bearing in mind when crossing the wake of a tow.
~A
 
DDW said:
Some here seem to think a 96' towing a 38' tender is unusual. It seems to be routine in a lot of the world. Most of the large motor yachts down in the Bahamas for example, and up the east coast. They do have cover a little closer at hand, but not guaranteed. On those yachts, there is no way to put it onboard. Not something I'd do, but it is routine.
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Yachts like these have trans-oceanic capabilities. Think: Caribbean in winter, Med in summer. Do they tow these large tenders across the ocean?

Whole different world from my Willard 36 with an AB 10 RIB. And I thought my problems were '1st world problems...."

Peter
 
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