Stopping disaster boat porn

[psneeld]

If crap weather is a real issue.... from NJ to Florida and back in probably 35 or so long distance trips on the ACIW over 20 years....in one of the most rolly polly boats I ever captained...I would say maybe 2 trips up the Delaware, 3 trips across the Abelmarle Sound and 1 in the Currituck Sound ....almost all of those ACIW trips were very relaxing to only mildly annoying. (the Currituck debacle was my fault for trying it in a 40knot NW guster day where it was fine except crossing bay mouths).

If I was in a boat with a SeaKeeper...I doubt more than 2 of those would have been noticeable as "poor conditions". Much of my travelling was in December and March...not exactly good months along the East Coast and it still was very manageable.

Comparing coastal and inland cruising is 2 different animals...but not sure why we are discussing offshore when the Mrs. is fearing docking, grounding, etc.... not bad conditions.

If she is...ya just don't get them if you are wise to the weather and possible local conditions.

 

[FWT]

I'm a year from knowing if it worked, but my approach to my wife has been to reduce a 4000 nm cruise into digestible chunks of hopefully fun stuff. Mind you, we have cruised a big chunk of the US/Baja coastline and had a great time, so she's not a rank novice here either.

I crafted the attached chartlet to highlight recognizable locations with inland travel potential (we've always wanted to go to Oaxaca); and to minimize multi-day passages. I know it looks ambitious, and it is, but not overly so given our experience levels. While not totally bought-in, my wife is interested in this. Shes not interested in the leg from Panama to Florida which is fine - not sure I am either (wx sucks and geopolitical risk limits options). Can certainly ship from somewhere down there.

So once we get the boat finalized and moving, we'll hang around Ensenada and cruise locally up to the Channel Islands (150 nms north). Another option is to do the Sea of Cortez as that's perceived as a bit more controlled cruising. Plenty of remote anchorages off small villages with good tacos. If the cruising spirit catches fire, we'll head south and meander. If it doesn't catch fire, I'll do a slow-deliver/fast-cruise to Florida with a friend.

At any rate, that's been my approach thus far. Very low key with her. Focus has been on getting the boat refit, and being open to her concerns. In the end, as hard as the refit has been, it's a magic carpet for our lifestyle. We both want roughly the same thing - hanging out on the water. We just need to find a happy place for the time/distance/location between anchorages.

Peter
View attachment 127003

Brilliant.

I had not realized it, but my experience was similar.

Idle chat about The Loop was problematic. Which was fine because its not a priority for me either. The extended commitment was just too much.

On the other hand, chat about Chesapeake to Maine with fun stops at places we both like was an enthusiastic "yes". Chat about a cruise to the Carolina's to places we both like was more so. Chat about further, ending up in FL and we are good to go. Making the crossing to the Bahamas was mixed, with the goal sounding good but the distance from here to there starting to get to the "I'm not so sure about that" level.

Point being, sum up the miles we've discussed and its similar to The Loop. It just feels less.

Smaller commitments are easier to make.

You said it better.

 

[JDCAVE]

Golly Hippo! We were in your shoes 10 years ago when we took our first bare boat charters and before we bought Phoenix Hunter. Pam gained a lot of confidence when she took a “Women and Boating” course at trawlerfest. The instructor was a woman and with “boat loads” of experience. Pam had never been on the water really before. She was naturally nervous and still is at times. She had and still has less experience than your wife. And we have seen much of the BC coast, some of it in unsettled conditions. We’ve had an occasional poor docking. Most of us do, but the boat and us have survived. She’s still all in.

Jim

 

[Art]

Thoughts:

1. Despite her obvious experience, may want to suggest an all-women's multi-day training course. SeaSenseBoating.com (seems to be Facebook these days, which I don't have). Would be a proxy for your 'network of sailing friends.'
2. OCC - I see there are a small handful of power-boaters there. And at least a few sailors have transitioned to Power.
3. Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should she be allowed to watch "Haulover Inlet" videos (an example HERE)

When I was teaching a lot (including several all-woman's classes, which were super-fun), I noticed women have much different priorities.

In general, men worry about (decending order)

• Ego - looking like an ass
• Damaging their boat
• Damaging someone elses boat

Women are reversed - and add-in concern about being stranded. Suddenly-Alone syndrome - what happens if husband gets injured?

I hope some of the few women on TF chime in.

Peter

Never ceases to amaze me how dumb some people are in rough/tough sea conditions. Open front boats are not designed for rough seas' big, steep close duration waves... especially in confused inlet water's tides, currents, winds etc. "Therapy IV" [a sizable, super structure' front enclosed, inboard-powered, sport fisher - at video end] has it right for boat design to handle those sea conditions... even though that much of rough conditions is tougher than need [should] be tackled.

 

[Hippocampus]

No life jackets. Live lumber not sitting down and holding a strong handhold. Throttle control wrong and as mentioned not following Allard Cole’s advice on how to steer in such conditions.

 

[mvweebles]

I think it's an Irish saying that God watches over drunks and fools. Must be true or few would make it to their 20's.

BTW - for those who watched the YouTube video (and speaking of 'boat porn'), was that a bikini top that got launched just prior to ejection of girl? If so, would explain why guy on jet ski was so quick to rescue

 

[Lollygag1]

Perhaps consider hiring a captain to take her out on your boat when you are not there. Some of the nervousness may be because you are presence.

 

[rgano]

I have told my wife many times it is a darned good thing she knew how to drive a car before we met. I also tell her that if she married me (both of us in our 50s) to change me she was barking up the wrong tree. Yet, despite overall acceptance, we still try to make inroads around the edges of each other's behavioral "abnomalities." I think her daughters and other female relations can at times have a larger impact on any attitude adjustments than I might. The one thing I am proud to hear her say is that I helped with her chronic tendancy to lateness by teaching her to work the clock backwards from the attoinment time to when she first needs to begin her seemingly endless preparation for departure at AIS (ass in car seat). Yes, get another woman power cruiser to talk her off the edge.

 

[koliver]

I think it's an Irish saying that God watches over drunks and fools. Must be true or few would make it to their 20's.

BTW - for those who watched the YouTube video (and speaking of 'boat porn'), was that a bikini top that got launched just prior to ejection of girl? If so, would explain why guy on jet ski was so quick to rescue

You need to watch to the very end of that clip, to see her hand a cellphone to the jet ski operator, before climbing hesitantly aboard.
But to your point, I agree he was on the scene in record time, likely due, as you guess, to what he thought he would find when he got close.

 

[Art]

You need to watch to the very end of that clip, to see her hand a cellphone to the jet ski operator, before climbing hesitantly aboard.
But to your point, I agree he was on the scene in record time, likely due, as you guess, to what he thought he would find when he got close.

Talk about male thought patterns!! LOL I know, I know - I am one!!

 

[DBL]

A Female (Written) Messenger

Hippocampus,

This has been a very interesting thread, involving some very experienced, thoughtful people.

A point has been made about having a female messenger involved.

Your wife might benefit from reading "The First-Mates Guide to Cruising the Inside Passage." It's written by a woman who was making the transition from sailing in southern California to trawler-cruising in the PNW and Inside Passage. (I have no commercial interest in this book or selling copies.)

Ms. Wilshin seems to deal with her fears by writing down the key steps - as in how to plan a trip on a new kind of boat in a new area, divide up the work, learn the equipment and make sure she can get the boat to the dock by herself, if she has to do so.

The book strikes me as an unpretentious, practical walk through of how she got her head around the big changes she was facing. It's not perfect, but it seems to be honest.

I read the book because I've never sailed in the PNW, and am thinking about doing so this summer. (I'm also the guy who will actually stop for directions when I'm lost.)

As background, I have a 500 Ton Master / 1600 Ton Mate license and over 3,500 commercial days underway. I still have to look for wise council when I'm facing a big change in equipment, route or mission.

I wish you good luck with the next steps.

 

[BandB]

As background, I have a 500 Ton Master / 1600 Ton Mate license and over 3,500 commercial days underway. I still have to look for wise council when I'm facing a big change in equipment, route or mission.

.

Strangely years of being in charge and being a "boss" have enabled me the most as I've always have many people working for me who were far more knowledgeable in their specific areas. Their knowledge and counsel has been the key to my success. So, it's natural to seek input from others. When it comes to boating, we hired captains who then trained us. I paid their salaries but they were completely in charge on the boat. My wife and I are both 500 Ton Masters, but I still respect that they and many others know more. I also seek out the most knowledgeable in new areas. Finding others you respect to talk to is always beneficial.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have learned more from crew when captain and from being crew than anything else.

In medicine there’s a saying you don’t know something until you
See one
Do one
Teach one.
But think it’s more involved.
They say there’s 10 ways to do anything on a boat and 9 of them are wrong. Even after doing this my entire adult life still find many things I’ve been doing one way for decades isn’t the best way and not infrequently just plan wrong. Thing is skill set is very task specific. Helming our current boat is different than our last boat. It’s a new skill. Some of prior skill is transferrable but much isn’t. Wife is experienced so she knows that. That has her spooked. We’ve both have taken many formal courses- safety at sea, weather, diesel mechanics and have already formal training on boat handling with the current boat. Believe you keep learning until they throw dirt in your face…..or they soon will.

I’ve gotten feathers ruffled by appearing to not honor credentials. Historically I’ve been equally impressed by the knowledge base and practical skill set by many who don’t hold “first tier” or any formal credentials than by some that do. I studied trained at “first tier” places -Columbia, NYU, BU, Harvard. I know and worked with folks with strings of initials after their names (have a bunch myself). Some are good researchers but not so much as clinicians. Others the reverse. A few both. Yes, we will train. If first attempt isn’t satisfactory will hire another teacher. As my dad said “there’s good plumbers and bad. Does the toilet flush when they’re done?”

 

[Alisske]

I think the missing link in many if these responses is she has something akin to 30k sea miles, majority being offshore. Thars a lot of miles. Circle the globe mileage .

Peter

Yup missed that. Although my response may still apply, it certainly provides important context. In my humble opinion, she is watching “game tape” (sports reference) and learning what not to do and what situations to avoid. . (Not the reason most folks watch porn, lol)

 

[TomCat]

Valium...

 

[Hippocampus]

The reason I started this thread is I don’t understand her. She is fine in serious situations. Has gone and done good work like in severe weather going up on the foredeck with green water pouring over her. Or going up the mast in a seaway. Not a whimper - just gets her done. But on other stuff she has a melt. verbalizes her stress which gets in the way of that evolution. Docking freaks her out. Even after probably thousands of times over the years.

My idea of a good docking is nobody gets hurt. You don’t hurt your boat or someone else’s. Pretty? I don’t give a rodents behind. I do like a quiet boat except for commands and replies. I do believe in keep calm-sail on.

So she watches this stuff and escalates. We’ve never hurt ourselves, nor any boat, dock nor anything at all in our time cruising. She knows we’ll train docking on the new boat . (Found a NT42 owner who will help and also help learning systems. So will train twice). She knows we’ll avoid difficult situations. Still, she watches this stuff and I hear her escalating so need to take time and talk her down. Just don’t get it. However, have been using some of the suggestions above. Really like using these vids as teaching moments. They have encouraged her to review the docking chapter on attainable adventures. She’s reached out to a couple that worked large boats and long term close friends. She as mate/cook. He as captain. A girl to girl occurred and was helpful. Especially as they are both incredibly skilled and our gurus about anything boating. We both have great respect for the lady so that made that conversation very meaningful. That couple retired and are now on a Al coastal cruiser they just completed the refit on. She’s excited about some buddy boating with them.
So yes it’s just her way to process and I need to suck it up. But this thread was helpful and I thank you all.

 

[88FuHwa]

Are you sure she is really into boating? Seems she wants to find any and all excuses not to go on board.

 

[psneeld]

In my experience, fears/worries are often the result of the unknown or uncomfortable.

She may "get" the hazardous sailing things she has done and the dangers of offshore passage making, etc...etc...but....

Does she really understand the intricacies if docking? And what is controllable or can be mitigated? If not, it's a possibility.

Your last post leans me that way.

When I had copilots or aircrew that were new or just voicing concern.... the old Q&A helped. I would ask what's bothering them about the mission/hoist/landing, etc. They would voice a concern and I would address it. Then the next and next till they realized I either had enough answers to the worries or I got to the point where I would say at that point I scared too and maybe at that point we abort.

If you need a womans voice to help, do you know one that knows your docking well enough to chime in and support your explanations?

Best compliment I ever had was a whisper I overhead from one salty aircrew to the new guy...."don't worry, Mr. Neeld will bring you home".

So I think my technique worked...no crashes, fatalities, or aborts in a career.

Also start giving a rats behind about each docking...when you make things look easy...a LOT of people think "wow" instead of "that was lucky".

 

[Beach House]

When we got our single engine trawler after 30 years of racing sailboats together neither my husband (100 ton license and sailing instructor) were not prepared for the steep learning curve when it came to docking a single powerboat. Practice is key to building confidence for you and your wife and your past experience with large sailboats will be helpful. Practice, not only when it’s calm, but, also when it’s crappy out. Your wife should also be comfortable docking and allowed to dock occasionally, not only in an emergency. I applaud your wife for educating herself, learning from disaster stories, rather than living them.

 

[Hippocampus]

Yes, she loves being on the water. It was her idea to transition to a trawler instead of a RV or travel by air as our main recreation.

Every one has a different mindset. When I was training on the sailboat my teacher told me” don’t give a rat’s ass how you look. Just don’t hurt yourself, any one else or any boat. Yours or anyone else”. That lowered my stress level immensely. Gave me the mindset that if I wasn’t sure things were going well to abort, get out of the area, sort things out and try again. No ego- if I felt things would not go well after the first attempt make other plans. That (knock on wood maybe why we haven’t had any mishaps. Have come to believe being concerned about appearances can be a cause for doing things poorly. I do the equivalent of m and m (mortality and morbidity rounds) on every evolution. Even if it’s only in my head but usually seek the input of whoever’s on the boat. What went well. What didn’t. How I could change things to be better the next time. Don’t think your ever perfect. Just that you get better.

We’re going to practice. Find it good to crawl then walk then run. Will start with calm days at slack and work our way up. Same as with sailing didn’t captain in heavy weather until I crewed in same. My wife builds on gained confidence. Any job running the boat we both can interchangingly positions. Usually one of us is better at it so does it most of the times.Surprisingly think she would be better docking this boat than me. She did better on the few sessions we had in Rhode Island. I’m sorry I seem argumentative. It’s hard to give advice to someone you don’t know and some misses the thrust of the initial post.

 

[Cedar22]

Hippocampus: When we first purchased our 2008 NT 37, we committed to (and the selling broker completely agreed to) equal training. For at least one of those several training dates the male partner was off the boat! The training captain was terrific, the selling broker was terrific, and the educational process thereafter and the knowledge freely offered and generously available through the various owners groups of NT's was a model for every manufacturer to envy. It should be a model for every manufacturer and every broker. And, we're unconnected to the broker or the manufacturer. Our ownership was equal all the way, and the best way to stop seeing disasters at ever mooring, at every anchorage, around every bend in the channel or at ever dock slip is to make the training and responsibility equal -- and to practice it thereafter. We fully support the recommendation of quality two way (duplex) ear phones for picking up mooring, anchoring and docking. Good luck! C & R Roosevelt, former owners of NT 37 #193

 

[guy with a boat]

My idea of a good docking is nobody gets hurt. You don’t hurt your boat or someone else’s. Pretty? I don’t give a rodents behind. I do like a quiet boat except for commands and replies. I do believe in keep calm-sail on.

Hippo, this comment may lead to part of the solution. I know your history to this point is predominately in sailboats, and I really don't know much about docking a sailboat. I do know a bit about powerboats and I know that docking one can be entirely stress-free, or very stressful. One element in determining how it goes is the boat and equipment (thrusters, etc), and another element is the technique and methods of the captain.

I don't remember if your new boat has bow and stern thrusters, or just in the bow. If you don't have both, that would increase the boat's ability to maneuver in tight spots and difficult conditions. Regarding the captain, it is possible that either due to prior boat characteristics or just habit, that your standards for a slow and smooth landing are less than they could be? I know very good captains that, due to lack of patience or for whatever reason, routinely make docking more stressful than it needs to be. It may not be stressful for you because you know it is safe, but it might be that your wife finds it stressful.

I'm going to suggest that your goal should be to ease up to the dock, stop the boat completely next to the dock, and then have you or your wife calmly step off the dock to tie off the boat. If you are at the helm, your wife should be able to do nothing but watch your blind side until the boat is completely stopped at the dock. If there is a rush to grab a cleat or jump off before the boat moves away from the dock again, that creates stress for everyone.

We have lots of good conversations on TF about boat about how you can dock a single engine boat in tough weather with fenders and spring lines. I can tell you that my wife would not be boating with me if that's how we had to dock. When we started boating and then each time we moved up, she was most nervous about docking. The best investments I ever made in boating are our headsets and a boat with thrusters at both ends. Our docking is slow and very calm. She will help me watch for clearance around the boat, and knows that she isn't stepping off the boat until it is stopped at the dock. I would never ask her to even take a big step over water, much less jump off the boat. I see both by other boats on a regular basis. While certainly not necessary for everyone, the thrusters let me settle the boat against the dock and gently keep it there until she gets 2 or 3 lines on. Then I come down and we do the full dock lines together.

I know you have docked your boats a zillion times and know more about it than most, but maybe you have room to refine your standards to help keep the nerves down for everyone. One of the things I try to do when my wife is on board (which is almost all the time) is to completely stop the boat about 2-3 feet off the dock, then ease it in. That way I'm sure all momentum is off, and we both know we aren't going to contact the dock with any speed.

If you live near your boat, get a friend to go ride with you and do multiple sessions of an hour or two practicing slow speed maneuvering. This boat will react differently than other boats, and you will get to where you can put it anywhere with confidence. I'm suggesting this in addition to your extended training, which is also a good idea. With that knowledge and lots of practice, you will be better and smoother than 98% of recreational boat drivers at docking. Your wife won't have to see the occasional mistake while practicing, and maybe her stress level will be down the next time you two go on the boat together.

You've gotten a lot of good suggestions and it probably will be very soon that the whole conversation will be history. It might be even be as simple as getting back on the horse a couple times. I predict that you will both enjoy the new version of boating and will be so busy exploring that the boat damage porn will be forgotten.

Best of luck.

 

[BandB]

Yes, she loves being on the water. It was her idea to transition to a trawler instead of a RV or travel by air as our main recreation.

Every one has a different mindset. When I was training on the sailboat my teacher told me” don’t give a rat’s ass how you look. Just don’t hurt yourself, any one else or any boat. Yours or anyone else”. That lowered my stress level immensely. Gave me the mindset that if I wasn’t sure things were going well to abort, get out of the area, sort things out and try again. No ego- if I felt things would not go well after the first attempt make other plans. That (knock on wood maybe why we haven’t had any mishaps. Have come to believe being concerned about appearances can be a cause for doing things poorly. I do the equivalent of m and m (mortality and morbidity rounds) on every evolution. Even if it’s only in my head but usually seek the input of whoever’s on the boat. What went well. What didn’t. How I could change things to be better the next time. Don’t think your ever perfect. Just that you get better.

We’re going to practice. Find it good to crawl then walk then run. Will start with calm days at slack and work our way up. Same as with sailing didn’t captain in heavy weather until I crewed in same. My wife builds on gained confidence. Any job running the boat we both can interchangingly positions. Usually one of us is better at it so does it most of the times.Surprisingly think she would be better docking this boat than me. She did better on the few sessions we had in Rhode Island. I’m sorry I seem argumentative. It’s hard to give advice to someone you don’t know and some misses the thrust of the initial post.

Wifey B: Your original question was to get her to stop watching the boat porn disasters. Now we're far beyond that which indicates the issue was never what she's watching but her concerns. That turns this into another husband coming to all his man friends on TF to try to get them to help him talk his wife into something or see things her way. We're back to communication. I'd love to see her thoughts of why her husband doesn't understand her concerns and dismisses them as inappropriate and goes to a public forum blaming it all on what she watches on YouTube. Another one side only of a spousal disagreement. You've reminded us of how experienced she is as a boater. That makes me think even further that we shouldn't be dismissive of her concerns. Perhaps she's seeing some adventuring in you that she feels today is beyond your current capability. I have no idea. Just another spousal disagreement where you're asking us all to take your side.

 

[psneeld]

Thus the comments in post #78 about communication.... most communication about sensitive issues are ineffective unless clear, concise and precise.

Identify the concern and address it directly.

Not saying it will work...but anything less sure won't.

 

[BandB]

Thus the comments in post #78 about communication.... most communication about sensitive issues are ineffective unless clear, concise and precise.

Identify the concern and address it directly.

Not saying it will work...but anything less sure won't.

Wifey B: And communication isn't a matter of helping me change my partner's mind, but should be help us find a way of communicating and having a meeting of the minds. The real answer is honest one on one communication, not getting your friends on a forum to support your view.

 

[psneeld]

Wifey B: And communication isn't a matter of helping me change my partner's mind, but should be help us find a way of communicating and having a meeting of the minds. The real answer is honest one on one communication, not getting your friends on a forum to support your view.

Many years of how to deal with people having fears or apprehension (both male and female since I served and worked with both) when employed in jobs dealing with great danger and death gave me a few insights.

Better communication might be the only avenue for changing a persons mind...sure...not all the time. Some just have to learn the hard way. If this wasn't about changing someone's mind, then what are we talking about?

My suggestions were to have that one on one communication addressing specific concerns of that person...not generalities from the forum that may or may not apply or "taking sides"....

 

[mvweebles]

When I was teaching docking, my approach was to setup situations where the student could "fail safely." Docking is one of those things that easier to learn the right way once you've failed and nothing terrible happens - really let's you focus on the boat when you realize how much latitude you have to make mistskes. Women do well as novice boat handlers because they often are quicker to feel and react to the boat.

Not all great hemlsmen are great teachers. I've seen some really competent captains teach - some of them are just awful teachers. They have no idea what it's like to be a novice. You're not looking for the best hemlsmen, you're looking for the best teacher of close quarter maneuvers. Look at it this way - even Tiger Woods has a coach, and there is no way in hell his coach is a better golfer than Tiger is.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I think a disconnect here is not about teaching...teaching doesn't work at all until you get a person's mindset past fears and concerns to acceptance.

I get the "let them fail safely" concept...assuming they aren't near frozen going into the experience.

I have no idea where exactly this person fits in the "convincing" or "teaching" level... would be a pretty personal observation in my experience.

But yes, once the person is "uncomfortable" and has gotten past the "fearful" or "apprehensive" stages that cause a person to shutdown to input by anyone...the "successful failure" teaching level can have good effects.

Unfortunately, sometimes only a microsecond separates a "successful failure" from a ding or scratch (or worse)... and yes it takes the better "teaching" capatain to get to that edge and not have it go over it.

 

[BandB]

I think a disconnect here is not about teaching...teaching doesn't work at all until you get a person's mindset past fears and concerns to acceptance.

.

Wifey B: So on target.

We have no idea she desires being taught. How successful is teaching an unwilling student. Poor teacher. Teaching is jumping way beyond where we are with this situation. Psneeld is so right.

 

[AZ2Loop]

This is possibly the most confusing thread I have ever seen. Hippo, you describe a long time partner who is accomplished, intelligent, capable, and with decades of sailing/cruising experience over 10's of thousands of miles. Your kind words show tremendous confidence in her, and I have no doubt your confidence is well placed. I would suggest you could also have confidence in her ability to choose what she wants to watch on Youtube!

Though we fall short of your experience by a decade or so, and several thousand miles, I am as fortunate as you in a cruising partner. I have total confidence in my wife's abilities as a captain, a first mate, a navigator, or any role she chooses when we cruise. Where you and I differ is that I cannot imaging having any desire to control what videos she chooses to watch.

You may be trying to find a solution to a problem that does not exist. My guess...... she's just fine and Youtube is not going to change that. Go enjoy your new boat together. Make some perfect landings, make a few mistakes, and make a bunch of new memories.