Recreational Boating & the Green Movement

[OldDan1943]

I can get 40mpg in my Lincoln MKZ if I drive no faster than 30 mph, no A/C and dont accelerate quickly and re-capture battery capacity when braking. That means, slowly build up speed and braking slowly a good distance from where I want to stop. Of course the folks behind me are getting a bit steamed at me too. There is enough instruments on the car to guide me through the process. Soooo, this all boils down to 425 mile per tank of gas. Alas, I have a bladder that max range is maybe 200 miles if I am lucky or perhaps 300 miles if I dont have a second cup of coffee.
Now equating that to my boat..... 6.5knts 1 gal/hour. No A/C, no generator, no cooking etc. And I can go a long long way..... When it comes to head call, depending upon where I am, auto pilot, neutral and drift or pee into the plastic hospital type urinal I keep near the helm. Plus I can drink all the cold coffee I want. LOL

 

[OldDan1943]

We can build and brag about hybrids and total battery powered cars and trucks but no one addresses the carbon foot print created to create all this crap.

I figure I have about 3 more years before I go toes up and take the dirt nap...... I will do what I want, if I can afford it. Will you miss me when I'm gone? LOL Oh wait, i guess I wont care.

 

[skyhawk]

So how is it that 2.5kw of solar on our roof runs several 240v fridge freezers, 240v hot water system, 42 inch TV, several computers and screen plus numerous other appliances, pumps, light AND keeps our 880ah @ 24v battery bank fully charged for night time running?

the batteries

 

[KnotYet]

California dreaming

I guess at 15% renewables we are dreaming 50% more than Maryland (at only 10%).

 

[KnotYet]

Ok, here are some actual power grid realities. These are things they don't tell the general public.

Reality #1 Load and generation must be equal at all times (this is at a sub second level)

Reality #2 Wind is not constant. It fluxuates literally being there one second and not being there the next. It is also not on demand. What this means is that operators need to keep spinning reserves available that can react at a sub second level. This means having a inefficient running plant that is not putting out it's full capacity to make up for the natural variation in wind energy produced.

Reality #3 Solar is wonderful but it is not there in the evening. Depending on a utilities mix of loads often the peak loads are in the evening.

Reality #4 except in the desert Southwest solar varies just like wind. When a cloud moves into view the output decreases dramatically and instantly.

Reality #5 We know a year in advance what hydro capability we have. This is called "pond" We know what our yearly capacity in megawatt hours is, so it is to us extremely stable.

solar and wind do help reduce fossil fuels and hydro use, but they will never replace them until a economical bulk storage solution is developed, and implimented.

oh, yes, from a generation standpoint the "grid" is not the same as it was 10 years ago.

From a transmission and distribution standpoint it is much the same.

Whenever there is mention of EV's and renewable energy, the above canards (among
others) are repeated.

There is no requirement that any one source solves all issues and I have not said so.
A big benefit of renewables is they reduce the pressure to build more polluting plants.

There will always be a lag time between energy demand and the responding grid upgrades.
Improving transmission and distribution is happening now and will continue (as it always has).

 

[fryedaze]

So how is it that 2.5kw of solar on our roof runs several 240v fridge freezers, 240v hot water system, 42 inch TV, several computers and screen plus numerous other appliances, pumps, light AND keeps our 880ah @ 24v battery bank fully charged for night time running?

Come on 2.5 kw on a boat is awesome. Electric demand on a 60 ft boat isn't close to a house.

 

[fryedaze]

I guess at 15% renewables we are dreaming 50% more than Maryland (at only 10%).

You drank the cool aid. I bet you love Elon too.

 

[Hippocampus]

Have a zero footprint house with every comfort. Live in New England which isn’t known as a ideal spot for solar production. Panels are new so more efficient than the panels on my last house. Have plenty of roof space for more panels but due to the way the state law is structured and their deal with the local power company it didn’t make sense to install them. Also go from residential to a commercial producer. Own our panels. In spite of this even in the snowy winter with its bad angle and short days make enough excess power to get a~$200 check per month during the winter. Much higher in the summer.

Think some of the resistance is generated by the power companies. They have an interest in your not being self sufficient and having the excess production to charge eVehicles. If a significant proportion of the housing goes geo/solar and thereby zero footprint the payback to maintain a pathway for electricity to get to individual housing becomes problematic as usage falls. Currently we pay nothing for electricity and make a profit.

We have a propane genset as backup given the grid fails here with some regularity. Currently we would get a $1000 incentive to put in batteries. If we were to do that we would have the choice to not sell back to the grid and just go entirely off grid. Would use our genset and batteries. Genset is only necessary intermittently. Did the math. At present still makes sense to stay on the grid economically. If power companies increase their cost to consumers that may change. Costs to modernize the grid are huge unless done incrementally as things age out or fail.

Will look at the software monitoring program. But at first blush would think if we do put in a battery bank we would have no issue charging two eVehicles. Suspect many new homes are in a similar position. Believe it the slow turnover of existing housing stock which slows application of current technologies in generation and HVAC that creates a catch22. An efficient house uses less power. The power it does use can be created on site. Investing in grid modernization becomes more risky.

 

[fryedaze]

Whenever there is mention of EV's and renewable energy, the above canards (among
others) are repeated.

There is no requirement that any one source solves all issues and I have not said so.
A big benefit of renewables is they reduce the pressure to build more polluting plants.

There will always be a lag time between energy demand and the responding grid upgrades.
Improving transmission and distribution is happening now and will continue (as it always has).

Agree, I just think it sucks that so much disinformation about renewable capacity is repeated. You have stated the same disinformation as the green media propganda. We will regret the land that is covered with solar and wind. 5 square miles of land is needed to equal one 1000 MW nuke. That does consider the enormous battery that would be needed to provide 24/7 power. Money drives everything. Solar and wind get the tax payer to subsidise the builds then get cedits on generation. The land use will be huge.
I still think you drank the California cool aid.

 

[fryedaze]

Have a zero footprint house with every comfort. Live in New England which isn’t known as a ideal spot for solar production. Panels are new so more efficient than the panels on my last house. Have plenty of roof space for more panels but due to the way the state law is structured and their deal with the local power company it didn’t make sense to install them. Also go from residential to a commercial producer. Own our panels. In spite of this even in the snowy winter with its bad angle and short days make enough excess power to get a~$200 check per month during the winter. Much higher in the summer.

Think some of the resistance is generated by the power companies. They have an interest in your not being self sufficient and having the excess production to charge eVehicles. If a significant proportion of the housing goes geo/solar and thereby zero footprint the payback to maintain a pathway for electricity to get to individual housing becomes problematic as usage falls. Currently we pay nothing for electricity and make a profit.

We have a propane genset as backup given the grid fails here with some regularity. Currently we would get a $1000 incentive to put in batteries. If we were to do that we would have the choice to not sell back to the grid and just go entirely off grid. Would use our genset and batteries. Genset is only necessary intermittently. Did the math. At present still makes sense to stay on the grid economically. If power companies increase their cost to consumers that may change. Costs to modernize the grid are huge unless done incrementally as things age out or fail.

Will look at the software monitoring program. But at first blush would think if we do put in a battery bank we would have no issue charging two eVehicles. Suspect many new homes are in a similar position. Believe it the slow turnover of existing housing stock which slows application of current technologies in generation and HVAC that creates a catch22. An efficient house uses less power. The power it does use can be created on site. Investing in grid modernization becomes more risky.

Sounds great. How many KW is your system and how do you heat your house?

 

[Simi 60]

Come on 2.5 kw on a boat is awesome. Electric demand on a 60 ft boat isn't close to a house.

Its the same as the place we lived in.
If anything, we run MORE refrigeration.

 

[Simi 60]

the batteries

At night.
During the day solar meets 100% + of usage.

 

[fryedaze]

Its the same as the place we lived in.
If anything, we run MORE refrigeration.

How about AC or heating. Then add charging 20 kw to a car everyday. Apples and oranges.

 

[ksanders]

Whenever there is mention of EV's and renewable energy, the above canards (among
others) are repeated.

There is no requirement that any one source solves all issues and I have not said so.
A big benefit of renewables is they reduce the pressure to build more polluting plants.

There will always be a lag time between energy demand and the responding grid upgrades.
Improving transmission and distribution is happening now and will continue (as it always has).

Thats because they are generally spoken by folks that actually engineer and operate our nations power grids.

Seems like everyone is better at doing our job than we are. Perhaps that would be a good opportunity for someone smarter or more forward thinking than us to come to work at our nations power companies.

After all if Popular Science says it's true then it must be so.

 

[Benthic2]

The entire population isn't going to buy an electric car on the same day. The demand increase will be incremental and mitigated by homeowners solar installs, wind turbines and efficiency improvements. There will also be some behavior modification from charging different rates when demand is low and mandatory load reductions when demand is high. The grid will increase capacity or rates will have to rise. Once rates rise, it will provide greater incentive to find more sources of power, just like when oil got over $100/barrel and it became cost effective to extract oil from shale.

Yes, there will be a lot of changes before we get there but instead of focusing on the cost of grid improvements try focusing on the cost of not doing these things. Global warming will lead to melting glaciers, rising oceans, urban flooding, species extinction, extreme weather events and massive forrest fires.

 

[Simi 60]

How about AC or heating. Then add charging 20 kw to a car everyday. Apples and oranges.

No a/c or heating
No electric car

 

[Hippocampus]

As mentioned it isn’t KW rating but actual power produced. Will have to pull the data off the “Enlighten” app. That is what was referenced above so now I’m curious as well.
HVAC is geo.

 

[Hippocampus]

We sold just under 700 in last 30d. Had a lot of rain which kills it nearly as bad as snow. If I’m reading it right 12.8 MWh per year.

 

[fryedaze]

Back to the original discussion. My boat requires about 80 kw/hr to run 7.8 knots. If I want to run for 5 hrs and cover 45 miles it would cost 400 kwhrs. A 50 amp 220 volt dock post can only provide 11kw/hr. It would take. 36 hrs to recharge. A Tesla powerwall is 13.5 kw. You would need 3 powerwalls in the boat at $10K each.

Folks don't understand the magnitude of the power they consume.

 

[fryedaze]

No a/c or heating
No electric car

Understand, I was relating your situation to on land homes with AC/heat and electric cars. I am envious of you setup.

 

[Simi 60]

Understand, I was relating your situation to on land homes with AC/heat and electric cars. I am envious of you setup.

My on land house has no ac or heating.
Hot, open window, turn on fan, have an outdoor shower.
Cold, put on a jumper, extra blanket, beannie and thick socks.
Save $$ - retire young.

 

[KnotYet]

You drank the cool aid. I bet you love Elon too.

There is no Kool-aid needed. I have no need or desire to change anyone's mind.
Every figure I have used is U.S. Dept. of Energy data.

Who wouldn't love that my Tesla stock has increased by 150% since summer.
I should have bought more. I know nothing of the man other than at this rate I may
be able to afford a ride in one of his rockets but probably wouldn't pass the physical.

Seriously though, neither you nor myself will have much effect on what is to come.
I am happy to being able to appreciate the tremendous technological achievements
by innovators on both coasts and in between and occasionally profit from them.

 

[SteveK]

California imports approx 25% of electricity, 85% of natural gas
Natural gas is used to supply about 50% of their electricity.

BC is a major supplier of both hydro and gas to California.

Please explain to me how California plans to become all electric when it does not have the means to be self sufficient with electricity.
When outside supply is reduced because the supplying states and Canada start needing more of their own production.

California dreamer.

 

[Open-d]

Agree completely that many industries will need gas/diesel for many years to come. I do wonder if that will only be made available to those industries and not to recreational boaters. Its hard to imagine that we will be phasing out the sale of new gas powered consumer cars to reduce emissions but allow recreational boaters to consume as much gas/diesel as they desire. At a minimum I wonder if we will see large tax increases on recreational fuel sales to reduce the purchase.

We've considered the sailboat option and haven't ruled it out. Under power isn't a bad option but 6 kts is pretty slow for us. Using sails doesn't support our needs either.

Move overseas. America is going the wrong way, anyway.
Instead of the "loop", do the Atlantic and Med.

Madeira is my target

 

[Open-d]

Whenever there is mention of EV's and renewable energy, the above canards (among
others) are repeated.

There is no requirement that any one source solves all issues and I have not said so.
A big benefit of renewables is they reduce the pressure to build more polluting plants.

There will always be a lag time between energy demand and the responding grid upgrades.
Improving transmission and distribution is happening now and will continue (as it always has).

Grid updates, you say? Not likely. The goal is to box you in, not liberate you.

 

[Open-d]

My on land house has no ac or heating.
Hot, open window, turn on fan, have an outdoor shower.
Cold, put on a jumper, extra blanket, beannie and thick socks.
Save $$ - retire young.

I don't guess company stays long at your place. Nothing like sweating like an uncivilized pig!

 

[Simi 60]

I don't guess company stays long at your place. Nothing like sweating like an uncivilized pig!

Maybe if you weren't so soft you wouldn't sweat like an uncivilized pig.

 

[FF]

The current trend to profit seems to be to raise the delivery cost

Here in FL its $45 a month for ZERO KW.

 

[Hippocampus]

House is left at 72 f year round whether we’re in it or not. No sweating like a pig. Boats should have excellent ventilation. In the tropics we very rarely ran the AC. Anchored out in the trades with good ventilation there’s no need. It’s when you’re in a marina slip and in nearly windless, humid conditions that the AC goes on.

When you’re going to be in the shade on land wear black. If in the sun wear white. Look at old housing in tropical and subtropical settings. The first and covered second floor verandas around the entire house provide shade. Empty center with a fountain or plantings creates a thermal. With shaded windows even in the absence of a breeze constant ventilation. The old Adobe houses are cool. The tract houses on a poured slab are hot.

Look at your boat. Typical sail has four to eight dorades, 3 or 4 overhead hatches and 8 to 12 opening ports lights. Now that non opening in hull port lights are the trend ventilation in new sail is going the wrong way. Trawlers are all over the place. Some with excellent ventilation but many truly need their AC to be habitable. Especially for berthing areas. Think many people don’t think about ventilation when they buy a boat but do after living on it for awhile. AC use in a boat should be minimal. Mold/mildew a non issue.

 

[Bobby Lex]

Yes but.........

I serious love sailing and have built and cruised windspeed + boats for decades but the reality is that to get one that could offer the level of comfort we enjoy now would be 10+ times more in dollars and would be unmanageable short handed.
Then I would have to turn the key and motor.

A sad realisation.

Indeed. It's the reason that so many of the members on this forum come from a sailing background. At some point in life however, comfort and ease of operation trump the pure joy and spiritual zen of sailing.

But the original question on this thread regarded energy efficiency, not comfort. If your #1 priority is energy efficiency (not comfort or ease of operation), sailing seems to be the best solution. A lot of posts have mentioned wind power to generate electricity. Sailing is wind power generating direct boat propulsion.