Piloting Displacement vs. Planing Vessel

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If you have something to steer towards it will be easier than using the compass. I like to get on course via the compass then look up for something. Then steer towards the object. Occasionally look down at the compass to check the course. At night you can use a star, just make sure it isn’t an airplane. Practice will make it easier.
 
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Every boat handles different. With that said I think you just need some seat time to get accustomed to the boat and it's handling. I have been on a large number of boats, and they are all different. The first thing to remember is don't over correct. Give the boat time to come back to you after a steering correction. SLOW is better!
 
Ours tracks like a train
Went to disengage AP once so as to round a mark and found the AP wasn't activated for the previous leg
 
Comodave said:
If you have something to steer towards it will be easier than using the compass. I like to get on course via the compass then look up for something. Then steer towards the object. Occasionally look down at the compass to check the course. At night you can use a star, just make sure it isn’t an airplane. Practice will make it easier.
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Plotter.

Haven't had the cover off our compass in years
 
KnotYet said:
That is a lot to love!

It has a very smooth bottom that will challenge you while learning to
maintain a straight course.
You will adapt to anticipating the counter rudder needed at various
speeds, though.

It's not a bad problem to have!
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Smooth bottom? I see twin keels. So what boat is in Lake Michigan that the OP is practicing on?
 
While I do periodically practice my hydraulic helm steering, couldn't imagine getting underway without a jog lever, or AP remote either set as compass heading or rudder angle. For me, making modest changes to heading by adding or subtracting a degree or 2 is just to easy. When cruising up winding rivers, being able to effortlessly spin the electronic wheel to the desired turn, allows me to focus on the next turn versus cranking the wheel back and forth. While I drove boats for years without an autopilot, I couldn't visualize it anymore than giving up my moving map chart plotter for a paper chart.

Another point worth considering is how many turns from lock to lock. My current boat is 7 turns which makes hard turns significantly more cranking. However, I have a huge foil rudder which only requires an 8th to a 16th of turn to effect change. When hand steering, I glance at the rudder angle indicator as I know how much change I want, not always intuitive by turning the wheel.

Ted
 
Looking at her underbody well it’s unlike anything I’ve ever surveyed and from what I can see she is an unusual hull form that from the stern is similar to a cargo hull or Dutch coaster being flat bottom with tight round bilges but the photos don’t reveal enough cross sectional info and development toward the bow. Then the view from the bow shows an interesting fine entry and a angular but full looking forefoot but again you can’t see how she develops or fills out aft.

She does reveal however some real shop skills to build something unorthodox like this. A flat full round bilge run or after sections with a sharp fine entry, and that dramatic wave piercing stem has me at a loss for handling characteristics as I’ve never sea trialed anything like it. Did you tell us if this was twin screw or single ? Anyway somehow I have to figure this hull’s sharp entry and forefoot can’t help but control a lot of steering and directional qualities. So my instincts are to keep a light hand on the wheel and not over-steer. Sorry best I can do.

If you are who I think you are I’ll bet you find a nice marina and slip on Muskegon Lake

Rick
 
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Thanks for the advice Rick!

And yes that's the plan ha, rock is stacked and dock is being made!



garbler said:
Looking at her underbody well it’s unlike anything I’ve ever surveyed and from what I can see she is an unusual hull form that from the stern is similar to a cargo hull or Dutch coaster being flat bottom with tight round bilges but the photos don’t reveal enough cross sectional info and development toward the bow. Then the view from the bow shows an interesting fine entry and shallow looking forefoot but again you can’t see how she develops or fills out aft.

She does reveal however some real shop skills to build something unorthodox like this. A flat full round bilge run or after sections with a sharp fine entry, and that dramatic wave piercing stem has me at a loss for handling characteristics as I’ve never sea trialed anything like it. Did you tell us if this was twin screw or single ? Anyway somehow I have to figure this hull’s sharp entry and forefoot can’t help but control a lot of steering and directional qualities. So my instincts are to keep a light hand on the wheel and not over-steer. Sorry best I can do.

If you are who I think you are I’ll bet you find a nice marina and slip on Muskegon Lake

Rick
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The sailboats that evolved to maximize speed versus rating for sailboat racing under the IOR rules had really wide mid-girths and relatively flat bottoms this resulted from the boats veering heavily as the boat heals and the shape of the wetted surface becomes asymmetrical. The boats also relied heavily on form stability versus ballast both factors made these boats a real handful in heavy weather.

Even if the boat remains upright, sea states can cause a hull to experience similar veering as waves don't wet each side of the hull uniformly. It sounds like the OP's hull may have similar attributes.
 
Congrats on the boat. Very impressive. You have it on Lake Michigan now?


I expect the round, keel-less bottom will result in less directional stability, but am not sure. I haven't operated such a boat. But I expect it will add another dimension to acclimating to the steering.


Single or twin? How big are the rudders? That will make a difference too.
 
sunchaser said:
Smooth bottom? I see twin keels. So what boat is in Lake Michigan that the OP is practicing on?
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The 'keels' remind me of a T-Rex's arms. ;)

I note that a Bering 70 is 'sale pending' in Jersey City. Same one?
 
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Gdavid said:
The sailboats that evolved to maximize speed versus rating for sailboat racing under the IOR rules had really wide mid-girths and relatively flat bottoms this resulted from the boats veering heavily as the boat heals and the shape of the wetted surface becomes asymmetrical. The boats also relied heavily on form stability versus ballast both factors made these boats a real handful in heavy weather.8

Even if the boat remains upright, sea states can cause a hull to experience similar veering as waves don't wet each side of the hull uniformly. It sounds like the OP's hull may have similar attributes.
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Pretty much where I was lightly touching. Some of the more radical hull shapes with exaggerated sectional form changes react drastically in different sea conditions, heel angles and speed. As these hulls heel they present a different form with different handling, some good but many steer by the bow and are seriously dangerous.

I can’t say honestly much about the Bering 70 hull design but my gut tells me anybody setting up a construction facility like this and is supported with solid engineering architectural professionals is not going to be a problem. Plus this is not a high speed craft where abrupt handling conditions or problems are likely to be encountered. I made a few contacts with guys who know a bit about this builder and the consensus was they were ( 5-6 yrs ago ) good or as good anything Italy is cranking out. That same gut feeling seems to tell me that handling and steerage will be a bit peculiar or at least not the typical characteristics found on todays run-of-the-mill trawler type yachts. I’m not saying problem I’m saying different which can also infer better. But I can’t get over this hull’s entry design. Very fine with a keel like forefoot that screams vertical plane that like a displacement hull keel is not going to allow much or any slip and has directional bite.

Though I’m retired this boat has peaked my interest and I’d like to know more or hear from anybody who owns one, delivered one or knows first hand about this build and concept.

Rick
 
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There are only two that exist currently. I don’t really know what to expect. I had a couple experiences where I wish I had more seakeepimg ability than my Prestige 550 had. On the hook hearing furniture creak while in a slight roll was not great. I had to be on constant alert while driving (at 25 knots) although I developed a policy of averaging no more than 25nm per day (drive 100nm stay at the destination for 4 days etc.) I also hated my range and it kept me from going places I wanted to go (carribean from Bahamas past Dominican). I also want to go to Greenland Iceland and the Faroes on my way back to my ancestors homeland Friesland in Northern Holland.

So I don’t really know what I’m getting myself into but it will probably be as big of an adventure of going up from a Sundeck 270 to a Prestige 550 ha
 
Delta Riverat said:
You turn the wheel and nothing happens. So you turn some more and too much happens and you crank back...
.
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Patience 'grasshopper'. (It's a Kung Foo thing). :)
 
Gdavid said:
The sailboats that evolved to maximize speed versus rating for sailboat racing under the IOR rules had really wide mid-girths and relatively flat bottoms this resulted from the boats veering heavily as the boat heals and the shape of the wetted surface becomes asymmetrical. The boats also relied heavily on form stability versus ballast both factors made these boats a real handful in heavy weather.

Even if the boat remains upright, sea states can cause a hull to experience similar veering as waves don't wet each side of the hull uniformly. It sounds like the OP's hull may have similar attributes.
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No. I disagree. Yes IOR boats were a handful but not for these reasons. Rudder size, waterline length and large headsails and spinnakers were tha main factors. The 'art' of sailing them was trying to keep the center of resistence underneath the center of effort (1/3 way up the mast). Really this is nothing to do with steering a heavy power boat. Let's not get confused here. BTW I have raced IOR boats for thousands of offshore miles and do know what I'm talking about.
 
My experience with rounded hull F.D. is that you don't really steer, it's more like subtle corrections.
Trying to steer only results in snake trails.
 
2savage said:
BTW I have raced IOR boats for thousands of offshore miles and do know what I'm talking about.
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I am glad to hear that you survived such abusive relationships. ?
 
Hi,

could it be an adjustable steering wheel system? My boat has a big screw near the steering wheel, I can adjust the screw about 7 turns from side to side or about 12 from side to side and everything in between.

NBs
 
DavidM said:
I am surprised you are having problems maintaining a straight course with your 70' displacement trawler. I would expect the steering to be rock solid on a boat like that.

Maybe there is some problem with the steering. Check for play. Have someone turn the wheel back and forth 5-10 degrees and watch the rudder post.

If it is hydraulic steering a worn steering pump or maybe a leaking hydraulic cylinder could cause this. I once helped a guy deliver his project Mainship Classic 34 that had this problem. We couldn't steer it in a straight line from the upper helm, but the lower helm was fine. The problem was the upper helm pump.

David
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Interesting to read this, since I am having exactly the same problem. From the lower helm the steering is direct. From the fly bridge steering to port is direct, but to st bd is sloppy. If I turn the rudder 5 degrees to port it takes eg one rotation, but 5 degrees to st bd takes 3 rotations.
Had mechanics look at it, changed high pressure hoses, filled the hydraulic oil, but could not correct the problem.
Will take a look at the upper helm pump now. Thanks for the tip ! :thumb:
 
Speaking of handling characteristics think about this. I’ve known over the years five or six old school long time professional yacht skippers three of which had spent time running large William Hand motorsailers. One was Leo Thomas who ran two of these special vessels for the same family in Maryland. But all three talked about how these boats would steer or veer to deeper water. Hands off the wheel in the ICW channels or rivers and these boats would gradually move to the deepest part of waterway. How or why I don’t know but I believe this as each of these men were old school quiet, pensive sorts and well respected by all who knew them.

Rick
 
garbler said:
Speaking of handling characteristics think about this. I’ve known over the years five or six old school long time professional yacht skippers three of which had spent time running large William Hand motorsailers. One was Leo Thomas who ran two of these special vessels for the same family in Maryland. But all three talked about how these boats would steer or veer to deeper water. Hands off the wheel in the ICW channels or rivers and these boats would gradually move to the deepest part of waterway. How or why I don’t know but I believe this as each of these men were old school quiet, pensive sorts and well respected by all who knew them.



Rick
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Here's a good explanation of what's happening. https://www.marineinsight.com/marin...effects-influence-ships-in-restricted-waters/ I've used bank cushion to get into shallow narrow entrances that change more frequently than soundings and chart updates can show the correct channel. Not a good idea with rocky bottoms, too risky. Works well on sand, mud and gravel bottoms.

I've been surprised by squat. When navigating over a sandy bottom with large sand waves when the keel came close to the tops of the sand waves. The stern squated as we passed over each sand wave. Screenshot_20221016-075112_X-plore.jpg
 
Thanks Portage and Ryan both these answers make some sense. I’ve read about the bank phenomena creating numerous accidents in the Houston ship channel so had I been thinking I should have been able to apply this information. It’s funny though when I was running a small dredge tender tug and sand barge at the mouth of the Miami River I swore there were places on the river where this small tug got to acting weird but the rest of the crew said I was nuts. Plus almost every time I mentioned this characteristic about the Hand motorsailers people called BS. But you guys have pretty much ID’d what is likely going on. Thanks

Rick
 
DavidM said:
I am surprised you are having problems maintaining a straight course with your 70' displacement trawler. I would expect the steering to be rock solid on a boat like that.



Maybe there is some problem with the steering. Check for play. Have someone turn the wheel back and forth 5-10 degrees and watch the rudder post.



If it is hydraulic steering a worn steering pump or maybe a leaking hydraulic cylinder could cause this. I once helped a guy deliver his project Mainship Classic 34 that had this problem. We couldn't steer it in a straight line from the upper helm, but the lower helm was fine. The problem was the upper helm pump.



David
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What he said! I had a similar problem with my first bareboat charter! The thing wallowed all over the place.

Jim
 
DavidM said:
I am surprised you are having problems maintaining a straight course with your 70' displacement trawler. I would expect the steering to be rock solid on a boat like that.



Maybe there is some problem with the steering. Check for play. Have someone turn the wheel back and forth 5-10 degrees and watch the rudder post.



If it is hydraulic steering a worn steering pump or maybe a leaking hydraulic cylinder could cause this. I once helped a guy deliver his project Mainship Classic 34 that had this problem. We couldn't steer it in a straight line from the upper helm, but the lower helm was fine. The problem was the upper helm pump.



David
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This very good post spurred one additional thought. Air in the lines will produce erratic steering too, so you may want to assure the hydraulic lines are well bled. Some systems are deceptively difficult to bleed and can take several tries to get them right - sag in a line can trap air. Same technique as bleeding automotive brake lines, though some boat steering systems are pressurized.

For bleeding, there is often a crossover valve near the steering cylinder that should only be opened for bleeding or use of emergency tiller (if equipped). Opening this valve and using helm pump or A/P pump will allow the fluid to circulate more freely.

Good luck

Peter
 
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DavidM said:
If it is hydraulic steering a worn steering pump or maybe a leaking hydraulic cylinder could cause this. I once helped a guy deliver his project Mainship Classic 34 that had this problem. We couldn't steer it in a straight line from the upper helm, but the lower helm was fine. The problem was the upper helm pump.

David
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This has been the case with our boat for 10 years. Lower helm has always worked just fine, while the upper was "sloppy". Just 2 months ago when attempting to bleed the hydraulic steering the upper helm froze and stopped turning all together.

Time for a new helm pump!
 
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