Is a new-build without lithiums just plain stupid???

[sunchaser]

Based upon the Sail Magazine November 1, 2019 issue, "Who's in Charge" article I'd say Calder clearly understands the Li vs Pb technology pros and cons.

 

[ksanders]

As some have stated it really depends on how you actually use your boat.

The majority of the LiFeP04 advantages are only realized if your boat is away from shore power and is not underway most of the time.

If you tend to get underway frequently and or tend to marina hop then the advantages of the technology over FLA is much if not entirely decreased.

Remember that for every trawler there are at least a dozen sail boats, and it is them that are driving this push to LiFeP04 as they fit the mold better than a power boat as having long periods with little or no charging source.

The more I look at MY preferred cruising habits the more I realize that increasing my recharge capability both on generator and underway along with some solar creates a system where LiFeP04 technology is not cost justified.

 

[dannc]

As some have stated it really depends on how you actually use your boat.

...

Remember that for every trawler there are at least a dozen sail boats, and it is them that are driving this push to LiFeP04 as they fit the mold better than a power boat as having long periods with little or no charging source.

The more I look at MY preferred cruising habits the more I realize that increasing my recharge capability both on generator and underway along with some solar creates a system where LiFeP04 technology is not cost justified.

Exactly.

Which battery chemistry to use is gets down to how the boat is used, the power needs of the boat, the boats ability to generate power, and the space and weight allowance of the boat.

For the sailboats we have looked at buying, using LiFePo is almost a given. The boats would have limited solar power production and this limited amount would impact sailing performance. Adding more solar is just not possible.

However, looking at an LRC 65, which can have around 5KW of solar panels, things change. We figure we would be moving every 3-7 days and the trip would be around 50 miles or so. Plenty of time to dump power into batteries from alternators but there is still 5KW of solar panels. Bottom line is that we joke we would be running extension cords to other boats in the anchorage because the boat would be producing more power than we would need most of the time.

Given the power generation of the boat, why use LiFePo? A good quality traction battery from Rolls or Hoppecke will last a very long time, and with the price difference one can built a bigger house bank. IF one can afford the space and weight requirements. Mobious is using Firefly batteries and I don't think that is a bad decision.

If we are not able to get a boat, this pandemic is really endangering our plans, we will likely put solar with battery backup in our house. I designed the house for this but the money was not there when we built. Looking at how much solar we can put on the roof, and since weight and space is not an issue, I don't see how using LiFePo makes any sense. Good quality AGM traction batteries, or maybe Firefly, seem to be the best buy at this point.

We sure as heck would not put one of the Lithium power walls on the house due to the fire risk.

Later,
Dan

 

[Pura Vida]

Something to ponder LiFePo4 batteries and quality:
"1, Rebranded generic made in China batteries like the Chins batteries, which seem to be relabeled and sold under a number of brand names.


2, Customized built to spec made in China batteries, like the ReBel batteries I recently bought, where the seller specifies all sorts of details about the construction of the battery pack, size and gauge of wire used inside, brand and model of BMS, type of cells, and even how they are secured internally, and the thread size of the terminal screws.


3, Custom designed, or exclusively distributed made in China batteries, the Renogy smart batteries with the RS485 port on top are probably a good example of these.


4, Premium assembled in North America (or Europe) batteries such as Battle Born.




What each person has to decide is where do they choose to strike the balance between cost, build quality, warranty and support. Do you mind buying from a fly by night, no name brand with no contact information in the US for warranty claims, if they even have a warranty. How about the small shop, one man show selling customized batteries, do you prefer a bigger company like Renogy who has been active in the US selling solar panels and other solar accessories for about a decade, or maybe you prefer a dedicated LiFePo4 premium brand with premium level of support and very long warranty like Battleborn, that is somewhere between a one man shop, and a big company."

 

[Simi 60]

The price for LFP has definitely been coming down. But it also depends on where you are in the world. It seems that AGMs are unusually expensive in your area, while for me, they're definitely cheaper than LFP. If I wanted to go for FLA, that would be even cheaper.

Yep, if I could have got another bank of 8 X 220ah AGM (440ah usable) for $3000 like I payed 5 years ago i probably would not have looked at the pricing of LFP

But, as they have jumped to around $7000 and 580ah of LFP (460ah usable) was $3000 it was a no brainer to go the LFP route
And, for still less money than what today's AGM bank would cost increase the size of the LFP bank to 840ah.

More power
Less coin
Less charging time (LFP takes 100% of the solar charge, no tapering off like AGM or lead)
Less space
And very likely making the Genset redundant.

What's not to like?

 

[Simi 60]

.


A good quality traction battery from Rolls or Hoppecke will last a very long time, and with the price difference one can built a bigger house bank. .

I would love to see the maths on that one

Considerably heavier battery as well so the freight would be diabolical

We sure as heck would not put one of the Lithium power walls on the house due to the fire risk.

And you shouldn't put it in a boat for the same reason
But you do realise they are different chemistry to lifepo4 right?

 

[OldDan1943]

I have a 4D AGM start battery with a bad cell, it is hot at one end and the main engine is sluggish when starting.
Tomorrow, they will bring a new battery and install it. The price of the battery is a bit over $500 plus installation. For now, I will not replace the the 3X4D house batteries, they seem to be fine.
My comment is, OUCH OUCH OUCH

 

[dannc]

I would love to see the maths on that one

Considerably heavier battery as well so the freight would be diabolical

Off the top of my head, I don't have the spreadsheet in front of me, the lead acid batteries from Rolls were $500 for a 410AH@6v battery. So $1,000 for a usable 200ish AH@12v. A Mastervolt LiFePo 180 AH@12v was $3,500ish. There were all internet prices from a few years ago so who knows what the prices are now. I saw LiFePo batteries drop greatly in price but then go up a bit.

And you shouldn't put it in a boat for the same reason
But you do realise they are different chemistry to lifepo4 right?

Yes, I do realize the difference between "lithium" and LiFePo. I would not put a "lithium" battery on a boat or in my house.

Having said that, "power walls" are being sold by three companies that I know about Tesla, LG and Generac. I know I looked closely at Telsa's power wall years ago and the battery chemistry was "lithium" and I assumed they are using the same little batteries in the power wall as in the cars. I looked at either LG or Generac, maybe both at one time, and they were "lithium" too. LG is, or will be, making batteries for Tesla so I assume they are the same chemistry as the Tesla powerwall and cars.

Tis one thing to use "lithium" batteries in a car but no way would I use "lithium" batteries in a boat or the house.

Later,
Dan

 

[Simi 60]

Off the top of my head, I don't have the spreadsheet in front of me, the lead acid batteries from Rolls were $500 for a 410AH@6v battery. So $1,000 for a usable 200ish AH@12v. A Mastervolt LiFePo 180 AH@12v was $3,500ish. There were all internet prices from a few years ago so who knows what the prices are now. I saw LiFePo batteries drop greatly in price but then go up a bit.

Thanks

Drop in LFP are so bloody expensive, I don't know why people buy them
If you can bolt together 6v AGM to make 12v or 24v you can bolt together 3.5v LFP.
Same same but different.

EVE 280ah @ 12v LFP would cost well under $1000

Add: just looking at Mastervolt pricing here
To get the similar ah (less) to what we have now will cost about $35,000
Crazy

https://bla.com.au/product/mastervolt-battery-lithium-ion-ultra-series/

 

[twistedtree]

If we confine the discussion to LFP, the one common theme to horror stories is $000's down the drain due to gross over/discharging.s. This is typically caused by considerable human or design errors but it is true that if voltages are maintained wildly out of spec the damage is permanent and irreversible.



https://youtu.be/0j0zcRXTDRk



The majority of other stories are either different chemistries or simply misinformed

Well, if you don’t follow the directions that come with the batteries, you are likely to trash them, and it can be an expensive reminder to RTFM.

 

[twistedtree]

wath i did not now was that when lithium cells are charged they need a resting period to ceep there lifespan,

This makes no sense, so must be a misunderstanding of some sort. There are no resting periods in house battery use. The only need I can think of for a resting period is if you are fast charging at a very high rate like 5C. You would only find this in something like a power tool with a very fast charger, and I could imagine a resting period to allow the battery to cool down. But completely inapplicable for a house bank.

 

[diver dave]

The answer is YES, it is stupid. Best to design correctly from the beginning. FLA and AGM are obsolete for most of us that need to discharge heavily, and don't have space and weight allowance for more lead. Not just technologically obsolete, but a higher life cycle cost.
Someday, Pb and H2SO4 won't be so easily available, or even needed.

It wasn't that many years ago when the USCG was dumping used up Pb beacon batteries in the ICW. Many changes coming on materials and their usage and recovery. Even China is jumping on the euro RoHS bandwagon. And the restrictions are increasing about every 5 years. Pb is on dated exemptions for number of products even now.
Try to buy NiCad; very difficult. And no new designs are even using their more or less direct replacement Ni metal. Handwriting is on the wall...

 

[Mako]

@DiverDave, yours is certainly one answer, by that is coming from a tech guy with a catamaran.

The view might be different from the perspective of a guy with a 100,000 lb trawler who has a generator and needs to run it once a week. Also, powerboats with fly bridges often have much less horizontal area to mount solar panels than a cat as well.

This thread has been very helpful to me as it’s given some various perspectives to consider.

 

[sunchaser]

I have a 4D AGM start battery with a bad cell, it is hot at one end and the main engine is sluggish when starting.

How old is the battery & what brand?

 

[diver dave]

@DiverDave, yours is certainly one answer, by that is coming from a tech guy with a catamaran.

The view might be different from the perspective of a guy with a 100,000 lb trawler who has a generator and needs to run it once a week. Also, powerboats with fly bridges often have much less horizontal area to mount solar panels than a cat as well.

This thread has been very helpful to me as it’s given some various perspectives to consider.

True, my response WAS a bit strong. btw, my last boat was a sportfish, and before I knew any better, I was dealing with house/gel cells, that occasionally turned to concrete. I anchored that boat quite a bit, even for a week in a spot at a time. Zero solar, so, like your example, had to run a petro-chemical charge station. I'd go Li if that same opportunity presented itself again. So, I don't see this as a power vs sail study.

Sooo, what about trawlers make them want Pb? the owners have stronger backs? They do or don't charge as often? They might not have solar? They put initial cost first and life cycle cost second? They sell their boats often? confused....

 

[XBoater]

Interesting discussion,

It seems the common reasons that most won't recommend LiFePo is the initial price or unfamiliarity with the technology.

The benefits though seem to far outweigh this,

Weight, less than 50% per useable Ah (how ready are you to swap out 8D 200lb LA batteries from the bilge vs 80lb LiFePo or maybe 2 smaller size for same Ah)

Actual power, LiFePo batteries can discharge at far more varied conditions and still get rated capacity. LA can lose up to 50% of rated output based on temp and current flow. In head to head testing posted online, LA batteries almost never meet their labeled output.

Most LiFePo batteries have a BMS that prevents damage from overcharge or discharge. With LiFePo, the rate of output doesn't significantly affect the total output, it does significantly affect LA output.

Something I haven't seen commented on, especially with solar users is the charging difference. LiFePo batteries will charge much faster as the can charge up to 90% capacity at a .5C rate as opposed to LA with a short bulk charge at .2C, then a lower second stage, then float.

Most quality inverter/chargers can be easily set to LiFePo charging profile.

Many of the reason to disqualify LiFePo are just not correct.

No more fire risk than LA. In fact LiFePo batteries are totally sealed so can be installed in enclosed areas. No so with any LA batteries.

No more complicating to charge LA. In fact LA charging profile and directions to fully recharge after each use is not needed with LiFePo

Far more charge cycles in lifespan than LA. While there are many claims it is generally up to 5 times the lifespan.

LiFePo batteries will provide power at cold temps, you can not charge them below 20deg. LA must be charged to store at cold temps or they freeze, also provide as little as 20% of rated output.

No more likely to be damaged by incorrect installation LA. I will agree it is more expensive to brick a LiFePo than a LA of equal size.

One place a LA battery excels vs LiFePo is as a starting battery. Large, short discharge followed by proper charging.

Everything being equal if you are looking to keep your boat for a few years AND you spend some time on the hook, LiFePo battery system should be seriously considered. Generally in most installations, over the lifespan of LiFePo batteries the upfront cost will be less expensive than the overall cost of LA batteries in the same timeframe.

I am looking into a boat with a questionable solar installation, 4 300w panels trying to charge 10 AGM 8D batteries. So I have been doing a great deal of research as to upgrading to LiFePo. Too much weight, to little charging time with solar. Owner wanted to run AC while on the hook, but after a couple days the solar system can't put enough power back to last the night.

 

[Codger2]

Interesting discussion,

It seems the common reasons that most won't recommend LiFePo is the initial price or unfamiliarity with the technology.

The benefits though seem to far outweigh this,

Weight, less than 50% per useable Ah (how ready are you to swap out 8D 200lb LA batteries from the bilge vs 80lb LiFePo or maybe 2 smaller size for same Ah)

Actual power, LiFePo batteries can discharge at far more varied conditions and still get rated capacity. LA can lose up to 50% of rated output based on temp and current flow. In head to head testing posted online, LA batteries almost never meet their labeled output.

Most LiFePo batteries have a BMS that prevents damage from overcharge or discharge. With LiFePo, the rate of output doesn't significantly affect the total output, it does significantly affect LA output.

Something I haven't seen commented on, especially with solar users is the charging difference. LiFePo batteries will charge much faster as the can charge up to 90% capacity at a .5C rate as opposed to LA with a short bulk charge at .2C, then a lower second stage, then float.

Most quality inverter/chargers can be easily set to LiFePo charging profile.

Many of the reason to disqualify LiFePo are just not correct.

No more fire risk than LA. In fact LiFePo batteries are totally sealed so can be installed in enclosed areas. No so with any LA batteries.

No more complicating to charge LA. In fact LA charging profile and directions to fully recharge after each use is not needed with LiFePo

Far more charge cycles in lifespan than LA. While there are many claims it is generally up to 5 times the lifespan.

LiFePo batteries will provide power at cold temps, you can not charge them below 20deg. LA must be charged to store at cold temps or they freeze, also provide as little as 20% of rated output.

No more likely to be damaged by incorrect installation LA. I will agree it is more expensive to brick a LiFePo than a LA of equal size.

One place a LA battery excels vs LiFePo is as a starting battery. Large, short discharge followed by proper charging.

Everything being equal if you are looking to keep your boat for a few years AND you spend some time on the hook, LiFePo battery system should be seriously considered. Generally in most installations, over the lifespan of LiFePo batteries the upfront cost will be less expensive than the overall cost of LA batteries in the same timeframe.

Most know that i am currently driving an all electric boat. (Duffy 22' Cuddy) I have had 10 diesel powered boats since 1995 and all kinds of batteries. For my electric boat with 16-6 volt batteries, it's going to be LIFEPO4s in the future. I've spent more time that I care to admit researching battery chemistry and it's no contest, LIFEPO4s are the clear winner. Cost be damned! It's a boat & I want the best!

 

[catalinajack]

Interesting discussion,

It seems the common reasons that most won't recommend LiFePo is the initial price or unfamiliarity with the technology.

The benefits though seem to far outweigh this,

Weight, less than 50% per useable Ah (how ready are you to swap out 8D 200lb LA batteries from the bilge vs 80lb LiFePo or maybe 2 smaller size for same Ah)

Actual power, LiFePo batteries can discharge at far more varied conditions and still get rated capacity. LA can lose up to 50% of rated output based on temp and current flow. In head to head testing posted online, LA batteries almost never meet their labeled output.

Most LiFePo batteries have a BMS that prevents damage from overcharge or discharge. With LiFePo, the rate of output doesn't significantly affect the total output, it does significantly affect LA output.

Something I haven't seen commented on, especially with solar users is the charging difference. LiFePo batteries will charge much faster as the can charge up to 90% capacity at a .5C rate as opposed to LA with a short bulk charge at .2C, then a lower second stage, then float.

Most quality inverter/chargers can be easily set to LiFePo charging profile.

Many of the reason to disqualify LiFePo are just not correct.

No more fire risk than LA. In fact LiFePo batteries are totally sealed so can be installed in enclosed areas. No so with any LA batteries.

No more complicating to charge LA. In fact LA charging profile and directions to fully recharge after each use is not needed with LiFePo

Far more charge cycles in lifespan than LA. While there are many claims it is generally up to 5 times the lifespan.

LiFePo batteries will provide power at cold temps, you can not charge them below 20deg. LA must be charged to store at cold temps or they freeze, also provide as little as 20% of rated output.

No more likely to be damaged by incorrect installation LA. I will agree it is more expensive to brick a LiFePo than a LA of equal size.

One place a LA battery excels vs LiFePo is as a starting battery. Large, short discharge followed by proper charging.

Everything being equal if you are looking to keep your boat for a few years AND you spend some time on the hook, LiFePo battery system should be seriously considered. Generally in most installations, over the lifespan of LiFePo batteries the upfront cost will be less expensive than the overall cost of LA batteries in the same timeframe.


No, sir, not even close, not a few years, more like 36 years to break even if one considers the time value of money. In my example that follows, even after 24 years, you would be $3,000 in the hole. Even using a straight-line projection, the break-even point would be 24 years.

An LFP purchaser has a lot of money tied in an asset of depleting value. It is actually quite easy to make a cost comparison with a few reasonable assumptions. There are just three that are required: (1) cost; (2) expected number of cycles; (3) useable amp-hours.

FLA 6V Golf Car - $150 each, 2 required, 115 amp-hours usable, 500 cycles (East Penn/Deka, price found locally)
BattleBorn 12V, 100-amp - $1,000 with shipping, 90 amp-hours useable, 3,000 - 5,000 cycles

So, a Deka FLA bank of eight will cost $1,200 and provide 460 amp-hours depleted to 50%. A BattleBorn bank of five will cost $5,000 and provide 450 amp-hours depleted to 90%.

Assuming that a FLA bank lasts six years, a conservative assumption, one must factor in the lost earnings from the up-front $5,400 investment in LFP versus FLA. Here is the investment cost.

1. Period 1 - $5,000 - $1,200 = $3,800. Invested at a 4% rate of return, for six years, compounded monthly yields $1,029 in lost interest.
2. Period 2 - $5,000 - $2,400 + $1,029 = $3,629. Invested at the same rate and term, this yields $983 in lost interest.
3. Period 3 - $5,000 - $3,600 + $983 = $2,383. Invested it yields $645.
4. Period 4 - $5,000 - $4,800 + $645 = $845. Invested, it yields $229.

So, after 24 years in place, the real cost of that LFP bank is the $5,000 of capital investment, plus $2,886 of forgone interest for a total cost of $7,886. That’s for 2,000 cycles.

5. Period 6 - $5,000 – 6,000 + $229 = ($771). Invested yields $209 to the good.
6. Period 7 - $5000 - $7,200 + $209 = ($1,991). Invested it yields $539.

After 36 years, the LFP cost is $5,000 plus a net of $2,138 of forgone interest ($2,886 - $209 - $539) for a total cost of $7,138 compared to $7,200 for six FLA banks. The BREAK-EVEN point for the LFP bank is 3,000 cycles and 36 years in the boat. Even after 24 years, you are under water by $3,000. Battle Born estimates 3,000 – 5000 cycles and warrants their batteries for 10 years and also stating that their batteries will last 10 - 15 years. Dakota estimates their batteries will last 2,000 cycles and warrants them for 11 years. The break-even point assumes that the Battle Born batteries make it to 3,000 cycles and we don’t know for certain that they will. We do know, however, that FLA batteries last six-to-nine years. This analysis has assumed a conservative useful period of six years. If a FLA lasts longer than that, then the break-even point would be 42 – 48 years.

So,yes, LFP works, they are not dangerous, and if one is paying attention, they should not be murdered prematurely but cost is just not a reason to go with LFP. The technology may get better with time and/or the cost will decrease but, until then, cost savings are a myth. But, as always, your boat, your money, and your choice is the right choice for you. And I ask you, who among us will even be still be boating 36 years or even alive?

My conclusion: LFP is not cost-effective, not even close. However, there are other good reasons to go with LFP.




I am looking into a boat with a questionable solar installation, 4 300w panels trying to charge 10 AGM 8D batteries. So I have been doing a great deal of research as to upgrading to LiFePo. Too much weight, to little charging time with solar. Owner wanted to run AC while on the hook, but after a couple days the solar system can't put enough power back to last the night.

See my comments in red above.

 

[ksanders]

Something to ponder LiFePo4 batteries and quality:
"1, Rebranded generic made in China batteries like the Chins batteries, which seem to be relabeled and sold under a number of brand names.


2, Customized built to spec made in China batteries, like the ReBel batteries I recently bought, where the seller specifies all sorts of details about the construction of the battery pack, size and gauge of wire used inside, brand and model of BMS, type of cells, and even how they are secured internally, and the thread size of the terminal screws.


3, Custom designed, or exclusively distributed made in China batteries, the Renogy smart batteries with the RS485 port on top are probably a good example of these.


4, Premium assembled in North America (or Europe) batteries such as Battle Born.




What each person has to decide is where do they choose to strike the balance between cost, build quality, warranty and support. Do you mind buying from a fly by night, no name brand with no contact information in the US for warranty claims, if they even have a warranty. How about the small shop, one man show selling customized batteries, do you prefer a bigger company like Renogy who has been active in the US selling solar panels and other solar accessories for about a decade, or maybe you prefer a dedicated LiFePo4 premium brand with premium level of support and very long warranty like Battleborn, that is somewhere between a one man shop, and a big company."

Great post!

The points you brought up, the no name, no support, no nothing batteries you mentioned are the ones that seem to be quoted as price competitive with FLA.

The fact is that right now a LIFeP04 battery from a "reputable" manufacturer, like Battle Born for example is still about a thousand dollars per 100 AH at 12 volts.

That puts LiFeP04 at something around 4X the cost of good quality FLA batteries for the same long term useable amp hours.

I got a decade of use out of my last FLA bank.

 

[sunchaser]

This thread is turning into quite an interesting discussion. If one does not have or believe in the need for Li batteries for their particular installation they are at times labeled as confused and stupid.

A step into reality may be helpful. Time and again we note the dock queens and seldom used boats that ply our marinas. Plugged in, sitting and waiting in many cases seemingly forever. On occasion the owner shows up and voila the vessel runs up 50 to 100 hours per year anchoring for a night or two between marina hops. These are the boats that keep the industry going and are the rule rather than the exception - whether Nordhavns, Flemings or 40 year old Grand Banks.

Kevin pretty well nailed it when stating cruising style normally dictates boat essentials including house bank requirements. Add in hobbyists (we all are) pursuits of boat oriented holy grails such as Li batteries, heads, anchors, chart plotters, auto pilots or stabilizers there is plenty out there to keep us challenged and interested.

Since we are not live aboards, don't cruise and anchor for weeks on end away from docks, do have a well setup generator and acceptable lead batteries the need for chasing the Li holy grail is not necessary. We normally cruise 2,000 plus miles per year last year exceeding 3,000 nm.

But we are hobbyists so playing around with the notion of going Li when our lead wears out is ongoing. Some of our best friends are hobbyists pursuing things such as horses, fast cars, airplanes, ranches and vinyl play turntables.
They are hardly confused, stupid or ignorant.

 

[OldDan1943]

Cat, I have 4X4D AGM batteries (3 house, 1 start battery) and 2X130 Amp solar panels. I consider the solar panels with their ability to float on the batteries and also do the final charge on the AGM batteries. I dont plan to live off the grid without a generator. IF necessary, the solar panels will keep enough battery life to run the 12vt fridge.

 

[sunchaser]

Most know that i am currently driving an all electric boat. (Duffy 22' Cuddy) I have had 10 diesel powered boats since 1995 and all kinds of batteries. For my electric boat with 16-6 volt batteries, it's going to be LIFEPO4s in the future. I've spent more time that I care to admit researching battery chemistry and it's no contest, LIFEPO4s are the clear winner. Cost be damned! It's a boat & I want the best!

God bless guys like Walt who want the best and just do it! No BS just action

 

[diver dave]

True; my argument becomes somewhat flawed on boats that dont get used much. But not the case with this audience, correct?.
[emoji41]

Lots of threads would be likewise affected. Oil type, engine type, hull design, antenna height. LOL.

 

[Hippocampus]

Weight- not infrequently losing the weight is problematic. Last boat was shipped to me with flooded Pb acid from mainland China. After 6 m they died. Looked at replacing with LiFePo4, carbon foam or lifelines. If I went LFP in order to maintain trim and AVS I’d have to glass in Pb to regain the weight. For many FD boats both power and sail going on a diet ain’t a good thing.
Expense - agree expense should be amortized over service life and that includes shipping costs. In the eastern Caribbean as long as you can get to a Water World or Budget given LFP weights less shipping costs are less if comparing to high quality AGM. So other than replacing ancillaries it’s a wash. But
Service - boat electricians and other service people in low volume markets ( the second and third world) have even less understanding of the nuances of LFP than the average boater. Like most both due to expense but also familiarity did as much work on my boat as I could. Found all to frequently local service people had little understanding of systems. However, they knew Pb cold wherever you went . Perhaps this is a non issue as maintenance, need for repair or adding new components is so rarely needed it’s non issue for the knowledgeable owner to do it yourself. However the LFP owners I know won’t let anyone touch anything to do with their electrical system but themselves.
We lived for 8 years with AGMs. Added batteries to the house bank so had 1020 in that bank. With two panels and two D400s they cycled between 80-100%. Spent <10% of the time on shore power. Were brought to 100% at least once every 3-4 days without genset runs. Yes, there’s benefits to Li. But in a displacement hull they may not be operative. You can easily live entirely off grid on alt energy long term with AGM or carbon foam as long as the bank is adequately sized. The additional weight is a plus/minus depending upon the boat.

 

[ksanders]

True; my argument becomes somewhat flawed on boats that dont get used much. But not the case with this audience, correct?.
[emoji41]

Lots of threads would be likewise affected. Oil type, engine type, hull design, antenna height. LOL.

Lots of boats get used quite a bit yet still do not benefit so much if at all.

Not all boaters want to spend the majority of their time at anchor for extended time periods.

Actually I would argue that darn few power boats spend the majority of their time at anchor.

Sail boats are another story it seems.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Tesla's car battery fires were very, very good to me. I love to hear people talk about the fire danger. It makes me feel like a stock market wizard. About 2019, the fires were in the news several times. Tesla stock prices fell. I did some online research and of the 200,000 car fires that year, the vast majority were gasoline, a few thousand diesel, and a few electric. Even when figuring in the limited number of electric vehicles on the road, electric was still safer than gasoline. Where was the outrage about the danger of gasoline and diesel engines?

So I bought a bunch of Tesla stock at $165, IIRC. I haven't looked at the stock price lately, but given that it's all long term capital gains now I could have a new boat built with LiFePo. But that's not my cruising style. Same with an electric vehicle. Not my cruising style.

I still occasionally look at LiFePo for my present boat. If I were routinely stuck someplace at anchor for three days then it might make sense, but we've always cruised when we are cruising and that charges the lead batteries just fine. If I cruised in some dismal place where air conditioning was required in order to survive, then maybe. If I needed to blow dry my hair (I wish), or the wife needed to vacuum the carpet (also none), or the grandkids needed to play video games on the 60" TV screen in order to stop screaming (again, none), then I would need +800Ah on board. It would have to be LiFePo in order to fit because of weight and space limitations.

So are LiFePo required in new construction? It depends on the size of the vessel you need and what you want to do. For me the answer is still no.

But don't believe the claims that lithium batteries are a money loser. They can be a very lucrative investment.

 

[Simi 60]

My conclusion: LFP is not cost-effective, not even close. However, there are other good reasons to go with LFP.

So don't use the super expensive battleborn
They are not the only battery out there.

Discussion here at times feels like " I am not going to buy a car, those Ferraris and Rolls Royce are too expensive compared to my horse"

 

[twistedtree]

Back to the title of the thread, I think the only “stupid” thing you could do in a new build is to not consider LFP and make an informed decision based on your own planned use of the boat.

 

[sunchaser]

Back to the title of the thread, I think the only “stupid” thing you could do in a new build is to not consider LFP and make an informed decision based on your own planned use of the boat.

 

[jdecris]

When I bought the boat 3 years ago, the Heavy DC system in my '91 GB46 was all Deka FLA. An 8D for each Cummins 6BTA5.9 250hp diesel and a 4D for the Onan Kubota diesel. That's it.

The two 8Ds Start batteries doubled as a House system. Obviously not great by today's standards.

I spent literally a couple of years figuring out how to upgrade. Consulted with Rod at Compass Marine on email/phone, and locally at the boat on Chesapeake Bay with Andy at MTS in Deale, MD. Plus of course hours and hours of research.

I replaced all the Heavy DC wiring in the engine room with Ancor tinned copper 4/0, 2/0, 2, etc. Feeds and Neutrals. New Victron Multiplus 3000 Inverter/Charger, Bluesea ML-ACRs, centralized main positive and neutral busbars with ANL fuseholder/fuses, etc. New battery trays, boxes, hold downs. Took all summer, over 175 man hours.

I went back and forth on the battery system - both type and size. Traditional FLA or AGM (Deka, Trojan, Crown, Interstate).

I ultimately decided on Lifeline AGMs. One 12V 210AH 4D for each main engine start, one 12V 105AH GPL-31T for the Genset start, and six 6V 300AH GPL-6CTs for the House Bank (900AH 12V total).

The Lifeline AGMs were just over $4,000. And that was with Annapolis Boat Show price matching.

I chose the Lifeline AGMs because of their engineering, reliability, and performance track record. And cost. I have a good friend that has over 12 years on his Lifeline system, still going strong. And their charge/discharges cycles spec significantly exceeds most other manufactuerers.

I did not consider Lithium batteries because of the cost/risk/reward dynamic.

In other words should for some reason they fail or get damaged and needed to be replaced sooner than expected... to me... the risk just wasn't worth it.