Hydrogen Internal Combustion Engines

[Mako]

I just ran across this recent announcement by Cummins to put into production hydrogen fueled engines (in 2027 however). To say that the infrastructure for refueling is sorely lacking would be a huge compliment, we barely have the infra to support electric vehicles, so I'm not a huge fan of H2 as it is not practical yet. However, I suppose for short haul and regional trucking it could work out if small refueling ops could be built. However, it's scary just walking past the 10,000 psi tank farms at work, and these are Gov't-maintained on huge budgets. Anyway, it is great seeing progress being made.

https://www.cummins.com/news/releases/2022/05/09/cummins-inc-debuts-15-liter-hydrogen-engine-act-expo

 

[O C Diver]

Wonder if this is anything more than PR or they actually have plans to build for inventory. Can see Cummins telling the government, we're not the evil petroleum engine builder anymore, we've done our part, just waiting for the orders.

Ted

 

[HopCar]

I wonder if running the H2 through a fuel cell to make electricity to turn the wheels might be more efficient than burning it in an IC engine?

Hydrogen fueled IC engines are not pollution free. They still produce nitrous oxide while a hydrogen fuel cells just puts out water vapor.

 

[HopCar]

Could water vapor from a hydrogen fuel cell be condensed to fill your water tank?

 

[Slowmo]

Fuel cells are efficient only at low energy draws, as energy demand increases efficiency drops to being not much better than an IC engine. The energy density of H2 is low which might make it impractical for boats.

 

[HopCar]

Fuel cells are efficient only at low energy draws, as energy demand increases efficiency drops to being not much better than an IC engine. The energy density of H2 is low which might make it impractical for boats.

Actually trawler type boats might be the ideal use for hydrogen power. They have relatively lower power requirements and room for large fuel tanks. There are already hydrogen fueled cars, both IC and fuel cell.

 

[phillippeterson]

Wasn't hydrogen used to make bombs? I'm admittedly totally ignorant here. But I am willing to be the fool and ask questions.

 

[twistedtree]

I can see speciality applications like mining where you need to run big equipment is poorly vented spaces. And I expect there will continue to be buses and the like where they need to carry more energy that space will permit using batteries. Cummins bought a company in this space not too long ago. If I recall correctly, it was a company that made equipment to generate hydrogen. Or maybe it was a fuel cell company. Can’t recall.

The biggest win for Cummins would be the trucking industry where they supply a lot of engines.

So I expect there will be applications, but I don’t see a total take over of the internal combustion engine segment, simply because it’s so energy inefficient.

 

[dannc]

Saw a video on hydrogen use in JCB equipment years ago. JCB is a UK company that builds construction equipment. From what I can remember, electric just was not going to work in some of their equipment in an economical manner since the batteries simply could not run the equipment for the number of hours required in a work day. Hydrogen can do so and can be used with modified diesel engines.

If one is worried about human caused climate change/warming then, the only way this makes sense is if the hydrogen is made from solar, wind or nuke power production.

I dug into boat use of hydrogen but never got good answers. My simple questions are, can a cruising boat with 5-6KW of solar panels generate and store enough hydrogen to power itself and make money sense? The bits and bobs are out there to do this but I could never figure out if it made money sense, if there was enough hydrogen could be stored on the boat for ocean crossing abilities, and if the boat could actually produce the hydrogen it needed.

The boat we are seriously considering at this point has 5-6KW of solar panels, and for much of the year, that array would produce excess power. Given the plan is to be sitting at anchor for a week or so before moving 30-50 nm, there seems to be plenty of time to produce hydrogen. IF this did work, and made money sense, this would make an awesome cruising boat.

But the boat would still need ocean crossing fuel storage. Just not sure that is possible to have room for fuel storage and the equipment, nor if it is possible to actually generate that much hydrogen, and it has to make money sense. The equipment exists but I could not figure out if the existing equipment would work in this use case.

Later,
Dan

 

[Gdavid]

So I expect there will be applications, but I don’t see a total take over of the internal combustion engine segment, simply because it’s so energy inefficient.

The engine in this news release is an internal combustion engine, it just happens to be hydrogen fueled, but not a fuel cell.

Cummins designed this new block architecture to support a number of different fuel sources with maximum parts sharing and minimal manufacturing resources as possible, the heads and fuel injection are different (and probably the compression ratios) but most other major components are shared. Being able to adapt to diverse energy sources will be key for transportation and this seems smart for Cummins.

 

[Mako]

Obviously hydrogen would only be practical for specific, specialty applications for the next decade or so.

We have a hydrogen powered bus at work and huge supplies of fuel, but even so, the bus is sitting in the weeds with deflated tires and is now home to hydrogen powered wasps and African bees ?

Not very impressive so far. Does anyone know of H2 vehicles in use today? Weren’t there a couple of experimental refueling stations built in California somewhere?

 

[KnotYet]

Wasn't hydrogen used to make bombs? I'm admittedly totally ignorant here. But I am willing to be the fool and ask questions.

Assuming you are referring to 'The Bomb', i.e. the hydrogen bomb, aka
mankind's only successful application of fusion technology thus far.

Actually, the H-Bomb uses deuterium and/or tritium which are fairly rare
isotopes of hydrogen.

 

[High Wire]

When someone makes a way to disassociate Hydrogen and Oxygen from water for fuel at a rate to power a 100+ hp engine and without the need for huge electrical sources, then H2 will be practical. Imagine a water tank, water pump and simple plumbing into a "splitter". Out comes Hydrogen gas and Oxygen gas that feed into the intake of an IC engine, gas turbine or something else, at a rate to give you the performance of a Tesla. Some day.

 

[Nomad Willy]

HopCar wrote;
“Actually trawler type boats might be the ideal use for hydrogen power. They have relatively lower power requirements and room for large fuel tanks. There are already hydrogen fueled cars, both IC and fuel cell.”

Good example of one of the many fuel/technology systems to challenge the lithium battery and electric motor movement that I frequently call a fad. Everybody’s jumping on a bandwagon to promote the new thing.
Not say’in the lithbatt system will flop but I am say’in there are many fuels and systems out there that could quickly de-throne the lithbatt system. And if (or should I say when it happens?) the sooner the better before further fortunes are spent on the lithbatt infrastructure that likely won’t be our solution. And the long term replacement for dino fueled internal combustion engines may quite likely not even been spoken of yet.

But the eco necessity re climate stability is so important that perhaps the bandwagon approach is great as it may get the job done. But I’d like to see more work spent on the hybrid concept. The important advantage to that choice is that we do have lots of oil left to slowly and gracefully transition to a new power system. I’m surprised at the high milage numbers hybrid cars show. Even for larger sedans that most car manufacturers are producing.

But not being interested in eco power I don’t have the knowledge to say more than I have here. Maybe there are other variations of hybrid systems that are being ignored in the mad rush to lithbatt cars. Who would do research on hybrid power in an environment looking at hybrid as a system that may be viewed already as old school?

 

[HopCar]

Obviously hydrogen would only be practical for specific, specialty applications for the next decade or so.

We have a hydrogen powered bus at work and huge supplies of fuel, but even so, the bus is sitting in the weeds with deflated tires and is now home to hydrogen powered wasps and African bees ?

Not very impressive so far. Does anyone know of H2 vehicles in use today? Weren’t there a couple of experimental refueling stations built in California somewhere?

Yes both Hyundai and Toyota sell hydrogen fuel cell cars.
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_sbs.shtml

 

[HopCar]

My feeling is that before we can get away from petroleum powered transportation we first need to find a way to generate abundant clean electricity. Wind and solar aren’t going to do it.

The holy grail of clean abundant electricity is nuclear fusion. We are getting close on that. Humans have recently produced a fusion reaction that put out energy in excess of the energy required to contain it but only for a few seconds.

In the mean time there is no reason not to build fission reactors. The technology has come a long way since the first ones were built and many old technology reactors are still safely producing clean power today.

With abundant clean electricity it will become a battle between hydrogen and batteries as to how our transportation is fueled.

 

[KnotYet]

My feeling is that before we can get away from petroleum powered transportation we first need to find a way to generate abundant clean electricity. Wind and solar aren’t going to do it.

The holy grail of clean abundant electricity is nuclear fusion. We are getting close on that. Humans have recently produced a fusion reaction that put out energy in excess of the energy required to contain it but only for a few seconds.

In the mean time there is no reason not to build fission reactors. The technology has come a long way since the first ones were built and many old technology reactors are still safely producing clean power today.

With abundant clean electricity it will become a battle between hydrogen and batteries as to how our transportation is fueled.

The reasons not to build fission reactors are the reasons they are not being built.
They are the least economical method of power generation even before the
very real concerns of long term waste storage which will also be extremely expensive.
The very long (10+ years) lead time to build a new reactor is also
a tough sell, along with the inevitable cost overruns along the way.

 

[Nick F]

My feeling is that before we can get away from petroleum powered transportation we first need to find a way to generate abundant clean electricity. Wind and solar aren’t going to do it.

The holy grail of clean abundant electricity is nuclear fusion. We are getting close on that. Humans have recently produced a fusion reaction that put out energy in excess of the energy required to contain it but only for a few seconds.

In the mean time there is no reason not to build fission reactors. The technology has come a long way since the first ones were built and many old technology reactors are still safely producing clean power today.

With abundant clean electricity it will become a battle between hydrogen and batteries as to how our transportation is fueled.

+1 !

With abundant clean electricity it will become a battle between hydrogen and batteries as to how the energy for our transportation is stored onboard.

By the way - yes, you can drink the water produced by fuel cells (I have, and so do the astronauts).

 

[JRO]

Wasn't hydrogen used to make bombs? I'm admittedly totally ignorant here. But I am willing to be the fool and ask questions.

Different technology. Hydrogen-electric technology is the answer to all our energy issues… From power plants to scooters. Coal, nuclear, fossil fuels and natural gas will be as dead as your VCR. Best of all… You will not have a choice. It will eventually become mandatory. Green energy is real!

 

[twistedtree]

Different technology. Hydrogen-electric technology is the answer to all our energy issues… From power plants to scooters. Coal, nuclear, fossil fuels and natural gas will be as dead as your VCR. Best of all… You will not have a choice. It will eventually become mandatory. Green energy is real!

Another hollow proclamation with nothing to support the notion other than a bunch of youtube promotional video, and no ability or willingness to address the obvious issues and counter arguments that have been presented in other threads. You say you are a teacher, so surely know about primary source material and how to construct a credible argument for or against something, right?

 

[twistedtree]

There are buses running everyday in California… I personally see them running everyday. Wake up!

OK, now I'm convinced. That's a truly cogent argument. Not.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. J. Ok. I'm a bit confused here. " Hydrogen power plants will be supplying electricity to the worlds power grids..." So it takes energy to produce hydrogen. Where will this energy come from?



The articles I've just read note that hydrogen production using current and future technologies (solar and biological) has "... long-term potential for sustainable hydrogen production with low environmental impact." and "...have the potential for sustainable, low-carbon hydrogen production." Nothing about the here and now, just potential. https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-processes


Also noted is: "Today's grid electricity is not the ideal source of electricity for electrolysis because most of the electricity is generated using technologies that result in greenhouse gas emissions and are energy intensive. Electricity generation using renewable or nuclear energy technologies, either separate from the grid, or as a growing portion of the grid mix, is a possible option to overcome these limitations for hydrogen production via electrolysis." https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-electrolysis Note the word limitations.


Seems like you're robbing Peter to pay Paul.(Origin: Peter Heylyn's Ecclesia Restaurata


I tend to side with Mr. NW (gasp). The "answer" is not yet found.

 

[JRO]

Greetings,
Mr. J. Ok. I'm a bit confused here. " Hydrogen power plants will be supplying electricity to the worlds power grids..." So it takes energy to produce hydrogen. Where will this energy come from?

The articles I've just read note that hydrogen production using current and future technologies (solar and biological) has "... long-term potential for sustainable hydrogen production with low environmental impact." and "...have the potential for sustainable, low-carbon hydrogen production." Nothing about the here and now, just potential. https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-production-processes
The "answer" is not yet found.

We will be dead, but hydrogen is the future. Internet gab is more ego than facts and you and I have as much credibility as everyone else, none. Extracting hydrogen from water is being done using at best solar and hydro power. At worst, fossil fuel. Hydrogen technology is advancing everyday and we are “not far” from a world changing energy supply. “Not far” is not within our lifetimes if you are near retirement age. Companies like GE are not limited by age and they are doing it along with many global companies. Outside of California, the USA is not leading the race to go green and efficient. To sidestep ego and credibility go online and check out what GE is powering with hydrogen technology. GE is just one suggestion if you are really interested in learning what is really happening and where it’s going.
The chemistry of extracting hydrogen from H2O exists and as the technology advances it will get cheaper and faster. Our great grand kids will consider our burning of fossil fuels primitive.

 

[Jeff F]

Greetings,
Mr. J. Ok. I'm a bit confused here. " Hydrogen power plants will be supplying electricity to the worlds power grids..." So it takes energy to produce hydrogen. Where will this energy come from?

The recent agreement between Canada and Germany gives an example. The basic plan as I understand it is to develop new wind farms in relatively remote areas in eastern Canada, use that electricity to create hydrogen, then produce ammonia for shipping to Germany, where the hydrogen will be extracted and used to generate electricity.

In this case hydrogen is the storage and transportation vehicle to allow renewable energy generation on one continent and consumption on another.

I found the ammonia conversion interesting. Apparently it's much easier to transport in bulk than hydrogen. I think there's been some development on using it as a fuel in combustion engines as well.




Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

 

[JRO]

The recent agreement between Canada and Germany gives an example. The basic plan as I understand it is to develop new wind farms in relatively remote areas in eastern Canada, use that electricity to create hydrogen, then produce ammonia for shipping to Germany, where the hydrogen will be extracted and used to generate electricity.
In this case hydrogen is the storage and transportation vehicle to allow renewable energy generation on one continent and consumption on another.
I found the ammonia conversion interesting. Apparently it's much easier to transport in bulk than hydrogen. I think there's been some development on using it as a fuel in combustion engines as well.
Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app

Germany has 14 brand new trains running on hydrogen power right now. Canada might be collaborating with Germany but transporting ammonia or hydrogen doesn’t sound efficient IMO. Germany has wind and hydro. The big advancements will be in hydrogen fuel cell technology. It is making great stride’s. The big problem is the process requires platinum, which is limited. They’re learning how to minimize the amount necessary down to molecules… And this is just the beginning.
GE has converted existing power plant turbines to run on hydrogen. I guess building new turbines is expensive.

 

[Mako]

@JRO, you seem to be a preacher of pure green energy but your avatar shows you burning huge amounts of diesel to push your cruiser at 25 knots.

In any case, what you're saying is that hydrogen is the solution to our energy needs in the far future. Okay, I'll go for that, so here is my proclamation:

"Hydrogen will solve all of our Earth's energy needs 100 years from now." I dare anyone to prove me wrong

 

[FWT]

When any alternative power source becomes superior in the total package of cost, reliability, availability, maintainable, and practical, and do so without subsidy or penalizing carbon just to make the alternative look better, then everyone will gladly make a shift and it won't take much selling and no forced move.

Solar on boats serves a valid need and purpose, and thus sees adoption to augment other power sources.

I hope the future does bring some of the alternatives toward practical adoption. Its fun to keep tabs on such things and hope.

 

[Nick F]

As I read this thread I sense that a number of forum members are under the impression that production of hydrogen will get easier in the future. THIS IS NOT TRUE!

To produce hydrogen from water you must supply energy. This is the same energy that you get back when you combine the hydrogen with oxygen to do something useful (drive a boat, or car, for example).

The energy in 1 kilogram of hydrogen is (approx) 40 kW-hr. There are some losses in the process of separating water (electrolysis) such that it takes about 50 to 55 kW-hr of electricity to produce one kilogram of hydrogen in a today´s technology. Future improvements in electrolysis systems could never reduce this 50-55 kW-hr to less than 40 kW-hr.

Please get your minds around the fact that hydrogen, as a fuel, is like a pre-paid cash card. You put energy into its creation and get this energy back at the point of use.

Hope this helps!

 

[JRO]

@JRO, you seem to be a preacher of pure green energy but your avatar shows you burning huge amounts of diesel to push your cruiser at 25 knots.

In any case, what you're saying is that hydrogen is the solution to our energy needs in the far future. Okay, I'll go for that, so here is my proclamation:

"Hydrogen will solve all of our Earth's energy needs 100 years from now." I dare anyone to prove me wrong

We, the living, are already experiencing the benefits of H-Power. We will not live long enough to see the Grand Banana but we will see it advance like a rocket until we’re dead. 100 Years is a blink of time to comprehensively change the world while fighting the Oil Industry for every inch of progress.
From a science perspective I love watching hydrogen finally get rolling… If not for global warming the oil industry would have continued to keep us in the Stone Age. Within 10 years we will see H-Power fuel cells available at gas stations. It will be like trading an empty BBQ propane bottle for a full one. Electric motors are the future putting an end to pistons, rods and cranks. Cummins should be developing electric motors not H-Power combustion motors. The combustion motor will be dead as it should have years ago.
I’m interested in the science and change. I’m not a conservationist by any means. I don’t care what happens after I’m dead. I’m happy to have lived in a period when the Earth was still bountiful. I’m happy I watched LED lights kill those stupid incandescent caveman torches. If I want to get somewhere fast I will not feel the slightest guilt burning $1,000 in diesel and contributing to global warming. I’m the guy who stuffed that plastic straw in that famous sea turtles nose. I ate it’s swimming buddy. Global warming is a byproduct of allowing the oil industry to get immensely wealthy… Goodbye and thanks for all the fish!

 

[Mako]

I’m not a conservationist by any means. I don’t care what happens after I’m dead. I’m happy to have lived in a period when the Earth was still bountiful. I’m happy I watched LED lights kill those stupid incandescent caveman torches. If I want to get somewhere fast I will not feel the slightest guilt burning $1,000 in diesel and contributing to global warming. I’m the guy who stuffed that plastic straw in that famous sea turtles nose. I ate it’s swimming buddy.

@JRO, please do us favor and admit that you're just a troll trying to stir the pot. Go ahead and say it, it's okay bud.