Fuel Cost Changing Cruising Plans?

[Slider70]

Well not being too political I hope, but Canada has no shortage of fuel in the ground. Our problem is getting it to market and refined. Too many people don't want pipe lines for reasons I don't really accept as sensible. We can't even get a new pipe line from Alberta to the East Coast on Canadian soil.

We are therefore forced to purchase most of our needs for the East Coast of Canada from other counties.

I know there is great logic in this. At least that is what I am told by my Government.

We will be cruising to the same places we planned but will be going slower and staying longer in our stops on the hook. Maybe doing some salmon trolling in the direction we want to go? Thank God for retirement. I do have empathy for those having time constraints or money challenges. We are busy spending our son's inheritance's with their encouragements. They tell us life is short enjoy it while you can!

 

[NEtrawler58]

We are focused on fuel prices, but we tend to forget that expensive fuel makes just about everything more expensive because of higher production costs and transportation costs. Also, labor cost are rising to keep up with inflation and because of low unemployment. My point is that after you pay all your bills, the amount you have for disposable income on boating will get eaten up faster by everything else you buy so the pain of higher boat fuel becomes even worse. Don't mean to be gloom and doom, I will still be boating but will likely be doing so at a slower speed as well.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Motor oil availability has become an issue also. Depending on the brand you prefer availability has been spotty and prices are starting to climb. I use Rotella T4 15W/40. Availability has been spotty this winter. Rumors have it that manufacturer's are having a hard time sourcing enough materials for the additive packages. Don't know if this is true, but now have enough oil and filters for this year's cruising, and then some.



Ted

I use Valvoline or Castrol. Walmart has been putting Castol out on the shelves 3 gallons at a time at just over $13 a gallon. I need 10 gallons, so I have 4 more gallons to go. Last time I changed my mains were 32 hours. Valvoline is really hard to find and when you do find it, it I'd around $22 a gallon.

Stock up while you can.

 

[woodlord]

I filled up last November 500 gallons at last year price before we left the boat for the winter to go down to Mexico
It should last awhile at 2 gallon burn a hour then we pay ? and moorage going up next month no brake for boater’s still going to have a good time anyway safe boating everyone

 

[SteveandZoila]

The price of fuel has nothing to do with "you" paying your fair share or Putin.

 

[jimfrens]

Just came back from south FL, marine diesel there was $5.50. Now back at home, I’ll reduce use of the truck to bare minimum and ride my bicycle (much healthier).

 

[Captain DJ]

I bought my boat last year with 650 gallons of crap fuel. Contracted to have it all polished and do inspections on all three tanks. The contractor only could do an interior inspection of one (center) because he did not have large enough new gasket material for the two biggest side tanks. He made me a deal, I used the boat for the season going up the coast from Westport to Neah Bay and onto Port Angeles, Port Towsend and a dozen more interesting ports and eventually at Olympia for drydock winter storage. He was supposed to come and do the inspection of the side tanks in the Fall and then I was going to fill her up at about $3.19/gallon. Because of the bloody hard rain, that did not happen and I figured, well I can just get the inspection done in June and then fill up. Boy oh boy do I wish I had just had him come on out during that cold, hard rain, and then filled up prior to parking her on land for the off-season. Gotta a strange feeling that the increase in fuel costs will be hirer than the added value of knowing/seeing the interior condition of those nearly 50-year-old tanks...They were glassed into the hull on all sides and there are no external signs of corrosion, I just wanted to see for myself and document for any future owner the condition.
C'est la vie

 

[Raduran]

+2, Kevin. I just filled up in Tucson AZ, $5.10/gal. Come summer, BC and AK will very spendy. But we're not ditching another cruising season based on fuel cost.

Today in Ketchikan Alaska, Petro Marine:
Under a 1000 gallons.
Unleaded: $4.43 Diesel No. 2 $4.21


Happy cruising.

 

[Unclematt]

I have full tanks (300 gal) and burn 2 gph @ 7 knots. I have been planning to Loop this year for a long time and will suck it up and pay what I have to. I will anchor more to offset the costs. I am a positive thinker so there is a chance prices could come back down. As far as prices go I filled my truck today and paid $5.40 in RI.

 

[O C Diver]

I re-pitched my props over 3,000 hours ago which bettered my fuel consumption by over 1/2mpg. I don't buy into any of the 'experts' views on running diesels at 1800rpm or their other words of wisdom so please don't supply me with any. I've been running 2 x 120 Lehmans at 1050rpm at 6.4kts for over 25,000 miles and get 3.3 statute miles per gallon.
On my trip up to New England this year, I'll be running at 800rpm at 5kts to mitigate fuel costs. Who knows - I may get up to 4mpg.

You need to be careful about running too low an RPM. For my John Deere, peak oil pressure exists above 1,300 RPM. As I go below 1,200 RPM, the oil pressure is down by 20%. John Deere is quite emphatic about not idling the diesel but for a few minutes. For start warm up, they recommend a neutral high idle around 1,000 RPM.

This is not to say your Lehmans are the same as my John Deere. But understand both splash and pressure lubrication are proportional to RPM.

The other thing to understand is that you've probably reached the point of diminishing returns. Simply each of your Lehmans with their transmission in neutral at 800 RPM is likely consuming around .5 GPH. If the engines are consuming 1 GPH in total without generating propulsion, it's unlikely you will reach 5 knots on .25 additional GPH. Nothing wrong with slowing down to improve MPG, provided the engines don't suffer as a result.

Just to brag a little, my single engine boat does:

6 knots at 1,200 RPM, 1.2 GPH, 5 MPG !
The 4 cylinder engine in neutral at 1,200 RPM is consuming .5 GPH.

Ted

 

[friz]

Open the drilling no impact for probably a decade. Infrastructure for refining and transport has taken a major hit due to weather, regulations and market forces starting even before Covid. Refineries and distribution systems need a major reworking. Probably need to be moved and significantly weather harden. Some companies playing the long game factoring in decreased use for domestic heating and for transportation down the road. Read their prospectus. Interesting stuff. Their calculus has probably changed as regards long term capital investment in development as well as infrastructure. They look at 30-50yrs. out. Only the French haven’t canceled natural gas exploration/development in Russia. Shell, BP and the US companies are out of there. Russia has the GNP of Italy. Don’t expect them to do major development for quite some time to come. US reserves are a pittance c/w demand. May be needed to keep our military functioning. Would wait and see what further brutality trumps friend Putin does before draining reserves. Both parties are complicit going back to Johnson. Backward tax structure and absence of meaningful competition.
Yes, agree the western world made a contract with devils (middle east monarchies and Russia). Now see the consequences. If Saudis and OPEC opened their output it could absorb Russias decrease NOW and infrastructure to handle it is already available.

and we must forget (ignore as an inconvenient truth?) that 18 months ago we were energy independent. Producing more than we needed and exporting to the world. I suppose I am angry at being so deceived. But that does not answer the OP's question. Our plans have definitely changed. Our pockets are not as deep as some the the other members here.

 

[rslifkin]

and we must forget (ignore as an inconvenient truth?) that 18 months ago we were energy independent. Producing more than we needed and exporting to the world. I suppose I am angry at being so deceived. But that does not answer the OP's question. Our plans have definitely changed. Our pockets are not as deep as some the the other members here.

We were in a huge demand dip 18 months ago. So it's not a great comparison point to anything before or after.

 

[mickand]

Here we go. I knew that the 'experts' would kick in!
I am not interested in any theories. I prefer the proof of the pudding and I'm eating it.
I have proved 5kts at 800rpm today with no current running, so time will tell whether I get much of an mpg improvement . I would love to afford a modern more fuel efficient vessel but most of us just have to urinate with the tool that we have.

 

[O C Diver]

Here we go. I knew that the 'experts' would kick in!
I am not interested in any theories. I prefer the proof of the pudding and I'm eating it.
I have proved 5kts at 800rpm today with no current running, so time will tell whether I get much of an mpg improvement . I would love to afford a modern more fuel efficient vessel but most of us just have to urinate with the tool that we have.

Did you see an oil pressure difference between 1,050 and 800?

Ted

 

[evansrr]

True. But Putin is a cancer. I did nuclear attack drills in my school, under my desk with hands over my head. Everyone remember those fallout shelter signs everywhere? If this is the price I have to pay to stop Putin who has threatened us with nuclear war, so be it. I don’t want my grandkids to have to live through that.

I remember those days and living not far from DC at the time it was taken pretty seriously. I thought those days were long gone in the 21st century but madmen are obviously timeless. I’m willing to pay the price and hope that economic power can bring Putin to his knees. If the Ukrainians can do what they are doing a few extra bucks per gallon is a small price to pay.

 

[mickand]

Oil pressure remains more or less constant from idle up to my past usual of 1050rpm. Above 1050 it rises about 5lbs but I'm confident that at any rpms, it's not a problem. I do about 900 hours each year and have regular oil analysis which always comes back with no issues. I've also had exhaust elbows off and injectors out for routine mtce and they show no excess carbon build up.

 

[mvweebles]

Here we go. I knew that the 'experts' would kick in!
I am not interested in any theories. I prefer the proof of the pudding and I'm eating it.
I have proved 5kts at 800rpm today with no current running, so time will tell whether I get much of an mpg improvement . I would love to afford a modern more fuel efficient vessel but most of us just have to urinate with the tool that we have.

Just imagine what you could do if you ran on one engine only, maybe even remove the prop on the fallow engine. Maybe hoisted a bit of a sail too!

Peter

 

[mickand]

It's been proved that running on one engine doesn't make much of a difference, but hoisting a sail - now there's an idea. However, if I did run under sail, would I be considered a cheap ragbagger?

 

[mvweebles]

It's been proved that running on one engine doesn't make much of a difference, but hoisting a sail - now there's an idea. However, if I did run under sail, would I be considered a cheap ragbagger?

At those low rpms, it would make a difference. Your engines are not operating anywhere near their design usage. Every engine - especially older ones - has a sweet spot where it purrs with minimal vibration. I don't remember what it was on FL 120s, but it sure isn't 800 or even 1200. There is no free lunch.

With all due respect, I think your initial premise has holes in it. Yes, maybe you save money on fuel, but engine hours are increased, running distance decreased, and it just sounds like a mpg-absurdism reminiscent of Prius drivers back in the early days of hybrids.

My Willard 36 with ancient 75hp Perkins 4.236 burns around 1.25 gph at just under 6.5-kts in flat water (1750 RPM seems to be the sweet spot). Several years ago, I was aboard a Willard 40 from Long Beach to La Paz, roughly 1000 nms. It was a newer Willard 40 and had a JD 4045t, a similar engine to Teds 45 Independence. We averaged about 7.2-kts and burned under 1.5 gph in open ocean conditions. In the past, I've thought about repowering with an older NOS NA 4045 as they are still fairly available surplus. My goal however was less about fuel consumption and more about the engine - I just love those 4045s. Very nice marinization.

Peter.

 

[rslifkin]

It sounds like he's overpropped enough that he's loaded up pretty decently at 1050 RPM. I'd probably want to put an EGT gauge on that setup to make sure it's not overloaded, as it's loaded well above what the manufacturer would have expected at those RPM (for a boat propped to reach full RPM). And most likely, throttling up much above 1050 RPM isn't an option, as the engine would be overloaded enough to be a problem long before it tops out RPM-wise.

Up to a point, more load at lower RPM will help efficiency as it reduces pumping losses in the engine. But depending on how much load the engine can handle at low RPM without shortening its lifespan as well as the efficiency curve of a specific engine, there's definitely a point of diminishing returns.

The 6.4 kts he reports at 1050 RPM is a good speed for an efficient slow cruise for a 41 footer that's probably got 35 - 36 feet of waterline.

 

[Hippocampus]

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=126738&stc=1&d=1647100639

These numbers were generated on a fairly windy day (10-18) and a 2 occasionally 3’ chop. They are averages of all cardinal points of travel.

These are my numbers. What’s pleasant is ~10kts. Even in chop don’t need the Seakeeper so don’t need the genset running. Minimal noise/vibration. Engine is Cummins 540hp turbo/aftercooled/wet exhaust.
What rpm makes sense? 7 with a seakeeper and genset running?.Going to 10-12 for 10-15 minutes every 6-8 hours or before landfall on short days?
Or 9-10 with no seakeeper/genset?
Genset is a Onan 11.5. Don’t have an accurate burn rate for it.

Think many SD boats give a more pleasant ride running at a decent speed. Think many FD boats need to take into account burn (active fins/gyros etc) or speed lost ( fish) when thinking about this. Even Beebe’s appendix gives detailed information about form of stabilization when listed mpg .

 

[rslifkin]

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=126738&stc=1&d=1647100639

These are my numbers. What’s pleasant is ~10kts. Even in chop don’t need the Seakeeper so don’t need the genset running. Minimal noise/vibration. Engine is turbo/aftercooled/wet exhaust.
What rpm makes sense?

You've got a B series Cummins, right? Or is it a C? I'd probably run around 1000 - 1050 RPM for a standard cruise, as that appears to get you around 3 nmpg in flat water. And then increase speed when conditions or time factors make it worth the extra fuel.

As long as the engine gets up to full temp and everything is happy, cruising most of the time at that low RPM shouldn't hurt anything. Others on here have mentioned that Cummins has ok-ed low RPM cruise as long as you're a couple hundred RPM above idle and everything gets up to temp.

Might still be a good idea to speed up a bit and give everything a few minutes of higher load to get the exhaust temps up if you go enough running hours without increasing speed for anything. Generally with my gassers, I try not to go more than 15 - 20 hours of total time at slow cruise without jumping up on plane for 10 minutes to get the oil and exhaust temps up for a bit to clean things out and make sure everything is good and happy. This year unless we end up running any conditions where being on plane is a significant comfort improvement, I expect those run-ups once every few weeks to be about the only time we spend on plane.

 

[Hippocampus]

Other issue is genset loading. Know when spinning up the seakeeper unless on on shore power the genset is adequately loaded with nothing else other than navigation instruments. But once at full operating rpms load decreases. It has no issues even with all 3 AC units on and even the SeaRecovery running. Have yet to look at various house draws. But post this example for similar outfitted boats to offer a thought experiment about what constant low loads may mean to your boat over time. Believe most small boat gensets are non turbo/ and N/A. Will carbonize.

Engine is a QSC

 

[JohnP]

Our boat holds 410gallons of diesel. Luckly filled at around $3. per gallon. If we do the Summer Season weekly boat trip or overnighter we have enough fuel for 2 years. However the real enjoyment of the boat to me are the long trips. Down to Florida, Up to the Canals, etc. Never did the loop, but covered enough mileage to have done it. The Admiral is not interested in forking over $2000. to fill up the boat, so for the next year at least it is close to home for us. Definately going to try cruising at hull speed which is probably about 6knots or less for our boat. Looking forward to a different way of boating this year.

 

[friz]

It's been proved that running on one engine doesn't make much of a difference, but hoisting a sail - now there's an idea. However, if I did run under sail, would I be considered a cheap ragbagger?

and to get from point A to point B you would have to go somewhere else first. I like being in control of my destiny.

 

[friz]

We were in a huge demand dip 18 months ago. So it's not a great comparison point to anything before or after.

okay, I apologize. 18 was not the best number for mincers. How about 24 - Gas at $2.33 in March of 2020 when the covid emergency was declared. In Jan 2021 it was $2.43 and has been rising since up to today around $4.50. My gasser trawler is on a trailer and I can fuel on the road. A 150 gal fill cost me $350 in March 2020. Today it costs me $675. $25 short of double. Looking at cutting back the two month cruise, early summer, in the Bahamas to one.

 

[rslifkin]

Other issue is genset loading. Know when spinning up the seakeeper unless on on shore power the genset is adequately loaded with nothing else other than navigation instruments. But once at full operating rpms load decreases. It has no issues even with all 3 AC units on and even the SeaRecovery running. Have yet to look at various house draws. But post this example for similar outfitted boats to offer a thought experiment about what constant low loads may mean to your boat over time. Believe most small boat gensets are non turbo/ and N/A. Will carbonize.

Engine is a QSC

A QSC definitely should have no issue with slow cruising. As far as the genset, I usually figure 1/4 load to be the minimum, ideally closer to 1/2. I've been known to run an A/C unit with windows and doors open just for extra genset load when I need it but not for something high powered.

As an option, depending on the max transient load, you may be able to put in a bigger alternator and run the Seakeeper on inverter power while underway after spinning it up with shore or gen power.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Other issue is genset loading. Know when spinning up the seakeeper unless on on shore power the genset is adequately loaded with nothing else other than navigation instruments. But once at full operating rpms load decreases. It has no issues even with all 3 AC units on and even the SeaRecovery running. Have yet to look at various house draws. But post this example for similar outfitted boats to offer a thought experiment about what constant low loads may mean to your boat over time. Believe most small boat gensets are non turbo/ and N/A. Will carbonize.

Engine is a QSC

I can offer one data point to counter the argument that a lightly loaded gen set will carbonize.
Two nearly identical gen sets. 40 KVA 480 Volt 3 phase. Isuzu 4BD1 natural diesels. The only mechanical difference between the two gensets is one had a hydrualic pump running off the front end requiring about 25 HP under full load. I'll call that one the day set, I'll call the one without the hyd pump the night set. Both ran about 12 hrs per day underway. The day set's electric load was normally between 15% to 40% with the hyd pump load on top of that. The night set's electric load was normally under 10%, often well under that only being asked to run 3 refers and some lighting. When I last worked on that boat they both had over 20,000 hrs. Beyond normal maintenance both had required only minor repairs, water pumps, thermostats etc. Both got a new set of injectors "just because". Both always got good oil reports. For what it's worth the day set's oil would turn black a lot sooner than the night set.

My best guess that unlike turning your main at low RPM and load a gen is always running at optimum RPM and up to temperature.

 

[Slider70]

I ran a 3208 Cat for a main engine in my salmon troller at low rpm for much of the time I owned it, 12 years. Got almost 20,000 hours on it before rebuild was done. Pulling the engine apart showed that the rebuild like should by have been done a bit sooner, maybe at 18 or 19,000 hr?

The reason it was ran in such low rpm was it was mainly used troller, 14 plus hours per day. At night it only ran a hydraulic pump driving the freezer, even lower rpm. The engine ran 24/7 only stopping each day to check oil and belts. It was a naturally asperated 210 hp unit. At least twice each day I ran her up to high rpm to burn out whatever.

My point is I am not concerned with running my now twin Hino engines at low rpm (naturally asperated) to same fuel burn from time to time. But I do run them up to high rpm for 10 minutes every four hours or so following the engine manufacturers recommendation.

 

[rslifkin]

For those giving examples of light load engine operation, keep in mind, not all engine designs handle it equally. Some engines are perfectly happy with anything more than an unloaded idle, others have various concerns when running them under a very light load (some of which can be mitigated by just running them up periodically).