An interesting development

[KnotYet]

I think this thread was about things which might be achieved. Doesn't take a lot of imagination to picture an energy storage technology being used in the railway context. We might call such a thing...I don't know...a tender?

Dream bigger.

From 2007:

 

[Mako]

I think of all the wonderful memories my wife and I have, quietly cruising down canals and through jungle rivers. Never more than 5 knots, especially since many are no-wake zones. It would be fantastic to have about 2 hours of cruise time on electric propulsion.

For a big, ocean-going trawler, the ideal would be to fit a marine gear equipped with a PTI, which would suit dual roles: short term E-propulsion and also get-home power on a single. Advance Gear and ZF make them, plus ABB for big ships.

A 30-40kW electric motor would need about an 100kW-hr battery bank. Probably better just to fit an oversized generator in an acoustic box, thus you could use it as a normal generator, plus load it up weekly or biweekly to keep it healthy. But as a get home motor on a single, you would need this size for a big trawler.

 

[twistedtree]

Well, 10-seconds of Google search for Diesel-Electric efficiency surfaced this research paper comparing two cruise ships. (HERE). Being a physic's flunker, I do not have the spare brain cells so will leave to the physics' aces to pick apart.

From the abstract: "This shows that the annual cost of the diesel-electric option is less than that of the conventional by 22%"


Peter

Interesting paper - thanks for posting. The savings really come from changing fuel from Marine Diesel Oil (MDO) to Ultra Low Sulfur Heavy Fuel Oil (ULSHFO). The fuel is less expensive, produces less CO2 emissions so has a lower carbon tax expense, and exhaust can be treated to meet IMO emissions requirements. So I think it comes down to what mechanism can burn the cheaper, cleaner fuel.


Looking at how this might apply to a mid to large pleasure boat, I think the answer is "not at all" since it doesn't let us move to a lower cost fuel, and reduce carbon taxes. We would be using the same engines and same fuel, so not gaining the advantage discussed in the paper, yet would be incurring the energy efficiency loss in the motor/generator mechanism.


BTW, the report was entirely a paper study. Here's Westerdam's actual status as of 2016. https://mvdirona.com/2016/02/behind-the-scenes-on-the-westerdam-2/

 

[sunchaser]

Thanks for posting TT. James Hamilton is and has been such a great nautical resource. As I recall, you spent some time with him in Europe a few years ago; that must have been a rewarding discussion or two.

Holland America is very forward thinking in so many ways. Their purchase of the Yukon White Pass RR is another example of their commitment to AK cruising. For those wanting to see a cruise ship docking up close and personal, go to the upper floors of the Juneau library to be within a few feet of the ships' bridge wing stations.

 

[Art]

Well, 10-seconds of Google search for Diesel-Electric efficiency surfaced this research paper comparing two cruise ships. (HERE). Being a physic's flunker, I do not have the spare brain cells so will leave to the physics' aces to pick apart.

From the abstract: "This shows that the annual cost of the diesel-electric option is less than that of the conventional by 22%"

Peter

Regarding the paper linked in post above: Maybe I'm incorrect in what I say in the next sentence and show in the following quoted paragraph; HOWEVER... "Table One" and "Case Study Description" [on paper's page 53] present stats that do not at all add up to me. Stats below do add up to what is mentioned in the liked paper's "Case Study Description". Therefore it seems to me there is some sort of wide discrepancy as to how/what/where this paper's study emanates from [regarding its printed "Table One" and "Case Study Description" comparison] ... so... I stopped reading the paper. What got me going initially on questioning this were the huge [too large in my way of thinking] reduction numbers stated in a post on TF that represented the reduction numbers stated on the paper's Abstract [page 52]. Those reduction numbers do not add up - in my opinion.

I googled MS Westerdam: Vista-class cruise ship owned by Holland America Line. She is the third ship of the class to be operated by the line, as well as being the third ship to bear the name Westerdam. Her sister ships are Oosterdam, Zuiderdam, and Noordam.
Launched: July 16, 2003
Length: 936′
Draft: 26′
Beam: 106′
Builder: Fincantieri
Capacity: 1,964 passengers – travelagewest.com
In service: 2004–present

 

[mvweebles]

Unless someone slips in between me and #65, this will be the 66th post in this thread. Likely half of which have keyed into one statement in the marketing brochure - that diesel electric was more efficient.

TTs original observation was indeed compelling. You can't add friction and expect a reduction. Makes sense. I recall that 15-20 years ago Pasaagemaker Magazine did an article on a GB42 that has been concerted to diesel electric with the goal of it being the springboard to launch a company that went nowhere. And I have a close friend who is a respected marine propulsion guru who tells me from empiracal experience, there's a sizeable loss when doing the conversion. But in the back of my mind, I can imagine a scenario where a diesel engine could run within a high efficiency zone close to 100% of the time versus the typical use a day boat runs and indeed be more efficient. Or a scenario where the engine lasts longer. Who knows how the builder defines 'efficiency.' Would be better if they explained, but to dismiss the concept as sleight of hand is short sighted in my opinion.

What I find more compelling though is a history of innovation and breaking boundaries. Long ago I worked through University as a freelance technical illustrator who mostly did patent illustrations. Rumor has it that at the dawn of the 20th century, the head of the US Patent Office boldly stated that all inventions of consequence had been discovered. If true, i can understand why - hard for me to imagine a world transformed again the way it has been in my lifetime.

I am 61. Weebles is 52 and has been given a new life that, cared for, could last another 52 years long after I'm gone. Somewhere along that continuum, propulsion will change dramatically. Something will change and make the improbable suddenly possible (lithium batteries have done that for autos). Whether this boat is that Rosetta Stone makes no difference - the domino's have started to fall. I find it incredibly exciting. I hope it happens sooner rather than later so I can see it happen.

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

My hope is to die with 1/2 full fuel tanks. A great selling feature. SMILE

 

[rslifkin]

Potential efficiency gains of diesel electric exist, but only in some situations. If you always cruise at the same speed, it's not hard to optimize a mechanical drive package for good efficiency, so diesel/electric is likely to be less efficient.

But look at something like a charter fishing boat. Blast out to the fishing grounds on plane, then troll slowly for hours. In the Great Lakes, trolling is slow enough that they're often trolling with 1 engine shut down, the other at the lowest idle it can tolerate, additional drag in the water and sometimes having to under-prop the boat as well.

So for that fishing scenario, if you had 1 or 2 big gensets and a small one, you'd troll on just the small one at a more optimal load scenario, plus having better speed control with the electric drive (so no more wasting fuel pulling drag devices through the water). And you could still drive both shafts, so you'd have better handling as well (many of the charter boats fit larger rudders for better steering at trolling speeds especially on one engine). In that case, the diesel/electric would have functional advantages and would likely burn a bit less fuel too.

 

[AlaskaProf]

From 2007:

I see it, but I'm not sure where the batteries are. I note that it still has the big radiators. Gotta do some more reading. Not entirely reassured by the diesel on the other end of a one-car consist.


[EDIT] Ah, this is better. 2018 version is actually being sold.

 

[sunchaser]

Viking is betting on their newest line of sport fishing boats, Valhalla models, to be trend setters. Given the sales backlogs they enjoy they are onto something. Of course, counter to this thread. The latest design is the 55' center console with 4 600 HP V12s on the stern.

Why is this relevant one may ask? Because Viking determined that for their admirers and buyers that speed, style, build quality and cruising range topped the desirables list. None of these attributes combined have yet hit the E drive deliverables list.

 

[Art]

We are in a race for pulling enough CO2 out of atmosphere to stop global climate warming... For civilization to continue a virtually uninterrupted tenure on Earth - this is simply a must do scenario - and, it will be done!

As a profit filled, employment creating, clean-energy bi product [in meaningful direct correlation and coordination with accomplishing atmospheric CO2 drawdown] there will become global access to Full-Cycle, Carbon Neutral liquid hydrocarbon gasoline, diesel and jet fuels. These new-source fuels will be fungible and drop-in ready to mix with refined fossil/crude oil fuels.

Operative intent for these new source fuels. Full-Cycle, Carbon Neutral

 

[Art]

Viking is betting on their newest line of sport fishing boats, Valhalla models, to be trend setters. Given the sales backlogs they enjoy they are onto something. Of course, counter to this thread. The latest design is the 55' center console with 4 600 HP V12s on the stern.

Why is this relevant one may ask? Because Viking determined that for their admirers and buyers that speed, style, build quality and cruising range topped the desirables list. None of these attributes combined have yet hit the E drive deliverables list.

"None of these attributes combined have yet hit the E drive deliverables list."

Boy, ain't that the truth!

 

[Northern Spy]

I thought the hybrid drive system installed in the YouTube star, Tally Ho, was innovative. I'd love to have that Beta Marine parallel hybrid set up in my boat.

https://youtu.be/xohxmwPfctg

https://youtu.be/c4UMMQFgmVI

 

[AlaskaProf]

I thought the hybrid drive system installed in the YouTube star, Tally Ho, was innovative. I'd love to have that Beta Marine parallel hybrid set up in my boat.

https://youtu.be/c4UMMQFgmVI

Outstanding! First time I've fully understood the appeal for a boat installation.

Would be even better on a sailboat! [/blasphemy]

 

[twistedtree]

I see it, but I'm not sure where the batteries are. I note that it still has the big radiators. Gotta do some more reading. Not entirely reassured by the diesel on the other end of a one-car consist.


Ah, this is better. 2018 version is actually being sold.

There was a link some ways back to a Union Pacific article. They built an "engine" that is nothing but batteries and electric motors. It's always operated in conjunction with at least one conventional diesel electric engine. So it kind if is the "coal car" that someone else posted a while back. The electric "helper" engine sucks up and stores regenerative braking power, or what the railroads have called Dynamic Braking for the past 70 years or more. Historically the power generated by dynamic braking was just burned up and wasted by large resistor banks. With this new design it's stored or reuse. Then the helper engine can add propulsion power as needed. It wasn't clear to me whether then conventional diesel is also capable of recharging the helper engine. It's all identical to how a hybrid car works, except it's packaged differently, and is much larger.

 

[sunchaser]

For many generations overhead "trolley" lines have powered locomotives. Think 80 years ago with Penn Central. With re-generative braking the systems can be designed for the braking KWH to be put back into the grid. The same systems are being used and designed for large mine haul trucks which already have electric drives. Progress is being made and profit driven.

Oh oh though, the power plants still largely burn fossil fuels.

 

[Hippocampus]

Often I’ve pointed out physics cannot be ignored. I’m interested in small boats with mixed coastal and offshore use. In this setting any propulsive energy or house requirements supplied by on boat alternative energy or “green” shore power will decrease diesel use and emissions.
In this context parallel hybrid seems the best current opportunity to achieve mixed use in a responsible cost efficient manner. Although initial costs are higher total cost of ownership is the same or lower as engine hours and fuel burned are less. Still improvements of the same of greater magnitude can be achieved by a change in the nature of cruising boats.
Going away from GRP construction. In both sail and power GRP has negative impact and is non recyclable. Although Fe requires less energy than Al Al is recyclable and decreases displacement. CF like GRP is hydrocarbon dependent and non recyclable.
Accepting vessels optimized for efficiency. This means accepting lower displacement, less useful payload and internal systems designed for efficiency. This means greater LOA for equivalent interior volume so greater berthing fees. However impact is decreased by many cruisers already avoiding slips for berthing except when servicing is required.
Such a parallel hybrid in the 55-65’ range can make use of the small JDs or large Betas improving reliability and owner self servicing. To achieve self righting battery weight if appropriately placed would both improve range and stability.
Energy losses from transferring from electric to mechanical are minimized. This is unlike the the diesel electric discussed above and is free of the difficulties of serial hybrid. However with suitable clutches the need for separate gensets is eliminated. Both the redundancy of two engines and two electric motors in combination with multiple energy sources (solar, wind, diesel) allows the greatest flexibility and safety.

 

[twistedtree]

For many generations overhead "trolley" lines have powered locomotives. Think 80 years ago with Penn Central. With re-generative braking the systems can be designed for the braking KWH to be put back into the grid. The same systems are being used and designed for large mine haul trucks which already have electric drives. Progress is being made and profit driven.



Oh oh though, the power plants still largely burn fossil fuels.

Funny you bring that up. My father was a train nut and worked for the penn central for a while. I remember him telling about such a rail line when I was a young kid.

 

[twistedtree]

Funny you bring that up. My father was a train nut and worked for the penn central for a while. I remember him telling about such a rail line when I was a young kid.

It was right around the same time, perhaps even inspired by the train story, that I came up with the seemingly brilliant idea of connecting an electric motor to a generator, then feeding the generator output back to power the motor. At least it seemed brilliant until he told me about perpetual motion machines…..

 

[Porgy]

Amtrak between Boston and D.C. has been all electric for ages. Their latest fleet of locomotives are regenerative. Philadelphia’s transit, SEPTA light rail trolley, subway and El, has also been electric for as long as I can remember and they are outfitting new units that are regenerative as well.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I am in the 'you can't convert energy without loss' camp, however, perhaps more importantly, who will troubleshoot, diagnose and repair such a complex system, especially at sea? I pose this question to builders who use similarly complex and rare propulsion systems and frequently get the laughable, "we'll use a modem or satellite link to remotely evaluate and diagnose the system" response. In this industry we have a hard time getting conventional propulsion systems diagnosed and repaired, and those are, well, extremely common. Manufacturers who buy into these complex systems almost never invest enough money in support, dealers or training. From my perspective, if it is even slightly less reliable than a conventional diesel (and it's def more expensive), why would I go that route?

 

[garbler]

I am in the 'you can't convert energy without loss' camp, however, perhaps more importantly, who will troubleshoot, diagnose and repair such a complex system, especially at sea? I pose this question to builders who use similarly complex and rare propulsion systems and frequently get the laughable, "we'll use a modem or satellite link to remotely evaluate and diagnose the system" response. In this industry we have a hard time getting conventional propulsion systems diagnosed and repaired, and those are, well, extremely common. Manufacturers who buy into these complex systems almost never invest enough money in support, dealers or training. From my perspective, if it is even slightly less reliable than a conventional diesel (and it's def more expensive), why would I go that route?

And I’m in the camp or school of thought that realizes such things are way above my pay grade or full comprehension. I’m stuck in conventional propulsion and drivetrain mode but I’m all ears.

Rick

 

[JWellington]

Many of the Europeans builders already say all their models are available as diesel/electric hybrids. They claims fuel savings of between 25-35 %.
When configured as serial hybrids, there is no power loss in transmissions, since they are direct drive. Then too , as other have mentioned, you use a slaller genset, and it will always run at its 'sweet spot'.

 

[Shaunc]

I had a friend who crossed from Cape Town South Africa to St. Petersburg Fl on a sailing cat that had batteries. They hayes it as it slowed down sailing when there was no wind.
The generator had to work so much to charge the batteries that he said the generator might as well turned propeller on a motor and would probably have been that same amount of diesel burn to move the boat forward as it was to charge the battery pack.

 

[twistedtree]

Many of the Europeans builders already say all their models are available as diesel/electric hybrids. They claims fuel savings of between 25-35 %.
When configured as serial hybrids, there is no power loss in transmissions, since they are direct drive. Then too , as other have mentioned, you use a slaller genset, and it will always run at its 'sweet spot'.

I think you are confusing serial hybrid with parallel hybrid.

 

[JWellington]

They let me post, but not reply now. Thats what this group is like.
https://www.volvopenta.com/about-us...el-hybrid-marine-propulsion-how-do-they-work/
Parallel has propulsion diesels, in series, just gensets.
A few of us here have been posting abou boat electrification for years already, and cited many example, including a hybrid 22m longliner, just a few days ago.
Another reason the euopeans are advanced in this field is because its not just for fuel savings, but also for pollution abatement. In harbors they dont pollute at all..

 

[Roland]

Hybrid Trawler and boats

Steeler Yachts in the Netherlands has come up with a full electric ocean going trawler. The 61 S Electric.

An interesting (but also not cheap solution) development.

See the 61 S Electric. Www.steeleryachts.com

Paul

Yes it is interesting, it is a HYBRID design Trondheim and Greenline are 2 good examples. What is the cost? Probably, just below $1M.
Trondheim was below $500K 2 years ago.
There is a Greenline 33 Hybrid owner in the forum as well, Scott C, City Malmo.
Regards,
Roland

 

[backinblue]

I think I get the math. 4 hours on a charge, then 2 hours running the generator and another 4 hours (unknown speed) nets you the 10 hour runtime on a 2-hour charge but you end up with depleted batteries that again need another 2 hours charging so not exactly truth in advertising. If you are burning diesel to charge batteries to run the electric motor, why not just power with diesel? I didn't find the purchase price but I wonder how that factors into their "economical" cruising model.

 

[JOHN CLAYMAN]

We are the North American distributors and have been promoting the Steeler 61S Electric at the last three TrawlerFests and other events. She was designed by our partners at Vripack to meet the live aboard requirements of her Norwegian owner. I would be happy to discuss her pros and cons. We will be starting construction of 77’ Doggersbank in March with hybrid propulsion which we believe will have much broader appeal. The Steeler is a very innovative design and could also be built with hybrid propulsion.

 

[JOHN CLAYMAN]

Steeler 61S Electric

We are the North American distributors for the Steeler 61S Electric and have promoted her at the last three TrawlerFests and other events. She was designed by our partners at Vripack to meet the specific needs of her live aboard Norwegian owner. We would be happy to discuss her pros and cons as we see them. Perhaps a better solution is the hybrid propulsion system that we will be installed in the Doggersbank 77 we are starting to build in March. The Steeler 61S
Electric is an innovative boat and could be also built with hybrid propulsion.