Boat buying nightmares

[tiltrider1]

I think an important take-away from this discussion is that any prospective buyer needs to step back and decide whether this is a market they want to participate in at the moment. For many, including the OP, the best decision is to step away and do something else for a while rather than try to buy a boat. Or go down the path of buying a new boat.

In the past I have recommended buyers use a Buyer’s Broker. Right now that would only work if you paid the broker yourself. Selling brokers are not willing to share commissions. For the last two years if you followed my past advice on buying a boat you would never have had your offer accepted. This does not mean I am wrong. It just shows how crazy the market got. I would hate to be a buyer right now. The risks are very high. I saw the same thing in the house market were buyers waved inspections to be first in line to buy. My advice now is to wait. This to will pass. I can’t tell you when but the buying will turn to selling.

 

[mncruiser]

In the past I have recommended buyers use a Buyer’s Broker. Right now that would only work if you paid the broker yourself. Selling brokers are not willing to share commissions. For the last two years if you followed my past advice on buying a boat you would never have had your offer accepted. This does not mean I am wrong. It just shows how crazy the market got. I would hate to be a buyer right now. The risks are very high. I saw the same thing in the house market were buyers waved inspections to be first in line to buy. My advice now is to wait. This to will pass. I can’t tell you when but the buying will turn to selling.

In my case they split the commission some way, but looking back I’d have paid the buyers broker if I had to. His advice and professionalism and solid contract and closing help was worth it.

 

[Art]

I don't deal with used boat brokers. They remind me of used car sales persons... yuck!

I do purchase from private owners. By asking questions, I can usually tell soon on phone if the owner is shooting straight... or not. If not shooting straight, I cordially thank em for their time and move on. When they are shooting straight, if rest of conversation regarding boat condition meets my approval, I'll visit them at their boat. From that point on the usual items occur as to whether or not I purchase the boat.

I've purchased and sold boats over the years. I make it simple by telling the truth on my side of the deal and make sure they are telling the truth on their side.

 

[krouth]

I just called a broker in Maryland (today) about a listing on Yachtworld that had been there for nearing 2 months. She said "Oh, is that still on there - that's been sold for weeks!". As I was about to ask if they had any other inventory, she just hung up! No good-bye, no what am I in the market for, no attempt to build any rapport with me. She just hung up. I guess in a hot market like this manners and customer service don't matter.

 

[Nick14]

I really think that what made the deal work. All parties trying to be decent humans to each other. It’s what is missing in a lot of things in life.

I like a good deal as much as anyone. I’ve got friends that make fun of me for giving stuff away…as in not asking enough. For me it’s all about being fair and decent, not wasting a lot of time to get that extra $100.

If more people felt the way you do, the world would be a much better place.

For too many people, their priority seems to be to choke the very last nickel they can possibly get out of a deal.

 

[Nick14]

@twistedtree, @Fletcher500, @tiltrider1

Your words and advice are very wise and reasoned. Thank you for the enlightened and experienced counsel that I think anyone considering buying a boat right now should seriously think about.

It's all too easy to get overly emotional about a boat, and the buying process. It's a slippery slope getting caught up in the frenzy of a hot market. I did, as the frustration with each lost deal piled up.

It's also easy to continue sliding down the slippery slope and end up doing something you later regret (I've done that as well, too many times in life, but not this time in trying to buy a boat). It takes self-awareness to step back and take stock of what is really happening.

For me, it became clear that trying to buy a used boat in this market was like trying to catch fireworks. A bad idea, because it was only going to end up with me getting burned. Fireworks might be exciting, but they explode. Like this market probably will at some point.

 

[HTurner]

Remember, except for very few states, there are no real requirements for becoming a boat/yacht broker. Meaning that Joe or Joelynn the broker may know more about lawn care than boats and lawn care may be their primary job. Boat brokerage may be nothing more to them than a hobby or secondary job.

 

[Art]

Actually... because of health and my increasing business circumstances, we may be selling our Tolly and tow behind runabout... once we get them moved back into bay area, minutes from home. Then... I'd purchase a faster, 24' to 28' boat that's still a comfortable overnighter and can well handle the waves.

Being the boats [for 14 years] were 100 miles away in SF Delta... I thought that maybe - "just maybe" I could locate a broker I could work with.

Well - that maybe-wish fell fallow. I made email and text contact with or spoke to four boat brokers in that area. One was a seldom responsive jerk. One a really nice guy... but...his dealership would not sell boats older than 1995 [ours are both in the mid 70's]. The other two had stipulations that my living 100 miles away made a no-go.

Planning to post as events unfold. May cruse back to SF Bay Sat 6/18... depending on tide sequences and other items.

 

[Slowmo]

This might be fate or God working in your favor. The winds are changing in the economy and within a year you may have a very experience. By the way, if you had a hand shake deal can be considered binding in some states. Texaco lost billions in the 1980's this way. So the handshake can be very binding and there is court precedent to back that up.

 

[BruceK]

My unsolicited advise,

1) Submit an offer with a deposit and contingencies (subject to survey and seatrial). People are making offers sight un-seen. You're calling to book appointments. It's not the broker you should be frustrated with, it's the other buyers.

2) Stop asking 'tire kicker' questions (e.g. 'engine hours'). There is time for that during survey. You are sending up a red flag to the broker.

3) The only question to ask is 'who is holding the deposit in escrow'. You'll get your money back provided the
P&S contingencies are not met. Don't bother asking about 'When will I get the deposit back'? The broker isn't the escrow/title agency and can't answer this question. Again, (no offense) but you're sending up red flags.

4) Yes, wire transfers, because checks can bounce. Purchase and Sale agreements are not sent without a 'good faith' deposit. 10% is standard. When bidding wars occur, deposit mini's can be higher. Your (albeit mild) resistance to wires and deposits and sending up red flags to the broker.

5) I would avoid negotiating changes and customizations. Buy the boat, then higher someone to implement the changes. If you were selling a car, would you sell to the guy that wants to buy it 'as is' or the guy wants to pay you to upgrade the stereo before he gives you a purchase and sale agreement
??

The Purchase and Sale is king. The guy on the phone promising to buy if he likes what he sees is just one of a conga line of people scrambling to buy the boat. Picture yourself behind the brokers desk with a line of 20 people out the door all trying to buy one boat. There is only 8 hrs in a work day. IF you worked with no lunch that would give you 24 minutes per person. Who are you going to focus time with? The guy with a completed P&S, wire? Or the guy asking about engine hours, and why a wire and when am I getting my money back??

I would rather not buy a boat than follow that advice.

 

[Nick14]

I would rather not buy a boat than follow that advice.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Me too!

Since that is what it seemed to take to buy a used boat in this market - submit to being a sucker - that's why I walked away from the whole process and am buying a new one instead.

 

[danderer]

I've always done better being lucky than good.

We signed the contract for our current boat about 2 weeks before Covid hit. It was a pre-Covid type transaction: time to visit the boat and others on the market a couple times, submit an offer, and negotiate to a mutually-acceptable contract. No rush and no fuss.

All Covid did was force us to be creative for the survey and sea trial but we worked that out.

During this period I was a bit depressed because I *knew* Covid would cause the boating industry to crash and therefore I had just signed a contract at a price that would be too high.

Pure luck on all counts.

 

[bowball]

I've always done better being lucky than good.

We signed the contract for our current boat about 2 weeks before Covid hit. It was a pre-Covid type transaction: time to visit the boat and others on the market a couple times, submit an offer, and negotiate to a mutually-acceptable contract. No rush and no fuss.

All Covid did was force us to be creative for the survey and sea trial but we worked that out.

During this period I was a bit depressed because I *knew* Covid would cause the boating industry to crash and therefore I had just signed a contract at a price that would be too high.

Pure luck on all counts.

What do you think the price would have been then a year or two later?

(And obviously the purchase process would have been substantially different but did it affect price too, and by how much in your estimate?)

 

[danderer]

What do you think the price would have been then a year or two later?

One data point I have is the boat we sold in the fall of 2019 resold for 20% more in late 2020. She was a popular model and very clean.

 

[Shrew]

I If asking the engine hours is a 'tire kicker' question on a half-million dollar boat, then I'm not in the market.

I never said it was an inappropriate question. What I said was it was a 'tire kicker' question when you are asking it while making an initial call to set-up an appointment.

These brokers have many, many boats in their listings. They rarely have all of the details and even more rarely is that info. at their fingertips. Often the owner themselves don't know how many hours are on the engines.

You're competing with other buyers who are submitting P$S's with deposits sight unseen. It's not the brokers you should be frustrated with. You're competing against other buyers.

 

[rslifkin]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a broker that take 3 - 5 minutes to answer a few quick questions over the phone or in an email is a crappy broker. The quick questions are to determine if it's worth more of anyone's time to look at the boat or if the answers have killed the interest.

 

[Gdavid]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that a broker that take 3 - 5 minutes to answer a few quick questions over the phone or in an email is a crappy broker. The quick questions are to determine if it's worth more of anyone's time to look at the boat or if the answers have killed the interest.

Agreed, I would add that a listing without engine hours is sloppy work or an intentional ommision. High engine hours are less relevant to me than a good mechanical inspection and parts availability but it is a valid question especially for the price range in subject.

 

[Nick14]

I never said it was an inappropriate question. What I said was it was a 'tire kicker' question when you are asking it while making an initial call to set-up an appointment.

These brokers have many, many boats in their listings. They rarely have all of the details and even more rarely is that info. at their fingertips. Often the owner themselves don't know how many hours are on the engines.

You're competing with other buyers who are submitting P$S's with deposits sight unseen. It's not the brokers you should be frustrated with. You're competing against other buyers.

:lol::lol::lol:

So in other words, (some) brokers are so busy that they prefer to sell to suckers who won't ask questions and will just blindly send their money?

Maybe it's just me, but if I was a broker and a seller wanted to list a boat and didn't know the engine hours, I would ask them to find out before I listed the boat.

But maybe greed and laziness are sometimes prevailing over ethics and civility.

The actions of buyers determine pricing in any market, but brokers themselves decide how they behave. As I said, if a broker considers it a 'red flag' for someone to ask the engine hours on a half million dollar boat, then that's a red flag to me for a broker I don't want to do business with and a boat I won't be buying.

The current 'hot' sellers market won't last forever. In the foreseeable future the dynamic may well return to historical norms. People will remember how they were treated. When it does, for me there's a list of brokers I will never work with again, and a (shorter) list of those I will seek out for any buying and selling I do, those who maintained a sense of ethics, courtesy, professionalism, and civility rather than giving in to greed or laxness.

 

[Art]

Posts 45, 46, 47 [as well as many other posts on this thread] are why I purchase boats from owners... not brokers.

My "qualifying" questions [to the boat's owner] upon first phone contact [sometimes by email]:

I say in very beginning... "I have questions to have answer for before we set up a meeting time for me to review your boat for purchase. Please let me know a bit about your boat."

1. How long have you owned the boat? If quite a while [3 years or more] I usually do not need to delve further into that topic. If less than 3 yrs - There are added questions to better understand circumstance at hand.

2. Please tell me any problems your boat is currently experiencing?? Depending on answer provided that topic may be satisfied - or - more questions may be needed.

3. Hours on engines and general condition of entire drive train? Depending on answer... maybe move on to next steps... maybe ask more questions.

4. Is your boat now registered and do you have its pink slip?

5. Has this boat ever been sunk or otherwise badly damaged?

Having politely taken control of the conversation by asking some straight-up questions in the beginning - I then know from the answers if I want to continue learning more before visiting for review, or, if I want to politely end our conversation.

If I want to go on with conversation I simply say: Please tell me anything you'd like me to know about your boat and the fun you've had with it! People who love their boat usually answer my questions well. And, when asked to "... tell me anything they'd like me to know about their boat and the fun they've had with it"... Some go "overboard" [pun intended] with stories and fond memories.

Speaking nicely with most boat owners gives me a world of info abut the boat. Talking with most [but not all] brokers = a brick wall.

I always know pretty quickly if it's worth proceeding past initial contact.

Happy Boat Buying Daze! Art

 

[Nick14]

Posts 45, 46, 47 [as well as many other posts on this thread] are why I purchase boats from owners... not brokers.

My "qualifying" questions [to the boat's owner] upon first phone contact [sometimes by email]:

I say in very beginning... "I have questions to have answer for before we set up a meeting time for me to review your boat for purchase. Please let me know a bit about your boat."

1. How long have you owned the boat? If quite a while [3 years or more] I usually do not need to delve further into that topic. If less than 3 yrs - There are added questions to better understand circumstance at hand.

2. Please tell me any problems your boat is currently experiencing?? Depending on answer provided that topic may be satisfied - or - more questions may be needed.

3. Hours on engines and general condition of entire drive train? Depending on answer... maybe move on to next steps... maybe ask more questions.

4. Is your boat now registered and do you have its pink slip?

5. Has this boat ever been sunk or otherwise badly damaged?

Having politely taken control of the conversation by asking some straight-up questions in the beginning - I then know from the answers if I want to continue learning more before visiting for review, or, if I want to politely end our conversation.

If I want to go on with conversation I simply say: Please tell me anything you'd like me to know about your boat and the fun you've had with it! People who love their boat usually answer my questions well. And, when asked to "... tell me anything they'd like me to know about their boat and the fun they've had with it"... Some go "overboard" [pun intended] with stories and fond memories.

Speaking nicely with most boat owners gives me a world of info abut the boat. Talking with most [but not all] brokers = a brick wall.

I always know pretty quickly if it's worth proceeding past initial contact.

Happy Boat Buying Daze! Art

Very wise advice. A 5 minute phone conversation takes much less time (and costs much less money) than preparing and submitting an offer, and doing a survey. It's both much more efficient, and more respectful of everyone's time, buyer and seller alike. If you know what you're looking for and what to ask, as you said in a few minutes you can quickly tell if it's worth proceeding.

It's astonishing to me that some people consider such a logical, respectful, efficient thing as a 5 minute phone call to answer a few questions to be a 'red flag.'

I would rather buy directly from a seller. Historically there haven't been that many boats for sale directly by owners, probably because yachtworld.com has become the universal place to look for boats (kind of like the MLS for houses), and only brokers can list a boat there. In this hot market there seem to be a few more boats being sold directly by owners on various sites and owners forums. It'll be interesting to see if that trend continues.

 

[twistedtree]

Very wise advice. A 5 minute phone conversation takes much less time (and costs much less money) than preparing and submitting an offer, and doing a survey. It's both much more efficient, and more respectful of everyone's time, buyer and seller alike. If you know what you're looking for and what to ask, as you said in a few minutes you can quickly tell if it's worth proceeding.

This is an interesting conundrum in the current market. This seller mentality of "make and offer and if I accept it then we can talk about the boat" might seem like a great way to sell a boat in a sellers market, but I wonder if it really is. When a seller accepts an offer, it typically includes a stand-still clause prohibiting the seller from entertaining other offers while the current contract is in force. They can only re-offer the boat for sale if you reject the boat. This of course assumes more or less typical P&S terms.


The result is that the seller will be locking up the sale for a period of time for a buyer who is really just a tire kicker and who is ultimately going to reject the boat. In my limited buying and selling experience, I have had more issues with buyers who talk a good story, but in the end can't perform, so I've become much more careful about vetting buyers to be sure they are really committed and capable of following through. Those early conversations can can help both buyers and sellers to figure out if they are a match, or a likely dud.

 

[Helmsman]

Nick, I agree. I looked on the used market after selling my previous boat for a short period, realized how unpredictable and ridiculous it has become, and how far south professionalism has “left the store” that I went with a new build. The boat is arriving later than I wanted, but that was a predictable issue and easier to deal with than the nonsense you were put through. Your post is a cautionary one for experienced boaters and neophytes alike.

The market will tighten quickly in the next year, I think, and when it does I believe a lot of brokers will be looking for a new line of work. I was experiencing the same type of treatment in the service part of the market before Covid, I can’t imagine what that looks like now.

 

[Shrew]

:lol::lol::lol:

So in other words, (some) brokers are so busy that they prefer to sell to suckers who won't ask questions and will just blindly send their money?

What I'm saying is that brokers over the last two years are getting more phone calls and E-mails than they can respond too in a given day. It's simple math.

You're operating under the assumption that you're the only person calling this guy, or that you're the only one calling on this boat. You are literally the 50th person on a given day asking a myriad of questions. Of the 50 people that call and E-mail to ask these questions, maybe 4 will follow-up. Just offer any simple $50 item on Craig's list and sit back and watch the number of E-mails that roll in. 10 with just "IS this item still for sale?" only to get no reply when the response is 'yes'.

Again, I never said you didn't have the right to ask, or that you don't deserve to get an answer. I'm simply pointing out the reality of your situation. There is a time and a place in the process.

Those that are working the process are buying boats. Those that are fighting the process are railing on online forums about how unfair the entire thing is. You can stomp feet and insist how it should be, but you can't make everyone play by the rules you've defined.

 

[Nick14]

Those that are working the process are buying boats. Those that are fighting the process are railing on online forums about how unfair the entire thing is. You can stomp feet and insist how it should be, but you can't make everyone play by the rules you've defined.

I had no expectation or right to make anyone play by any particular rules, though the unethical, arrogant, rude conduct of so many seems uncalled for, regardless of how many phone calls they might be getting.

I fully recognized that the current 'rules' are not ones I choose to play by. If 'working the process' means having to bend over, grab your ankles, and act imprudently, others are welcome to it. So I walked away from the process and am having a new boat built.

I will always remember those who decided to act uncivilly and prioritized greed over integrity, and those who maintained a sense of ethics - and will shun the former and give my business to the latter.

 

[rslifkin]

What I'm saying is that brokers over the last two years are getting more phone calls and E-mails than they can respond too in a given day. It's simple math.

You're operating under the assumption that you're the only person calling this guy, or that you're the only one calling on this boat. You are literally the 50th person on a given day asking a myriad of questions. Of the 50 people that call and E-mail to ask these questions, maybe 4 will follow-up. Just offer any simple $50 item on Craig's list and sit back and watch the number of E-mails that roll in. 10 with just "IS this item still for sale?" only to get no reply when the response is 'yes'.

Again, I never said you didn't have the right to ask, or that you don't deserve to get an answer. I'm simply pointing out the reality of your situation. There is a time and a place in the process.

Those that are working the process are buying boats. Those that are fighting the process are railing on online forums about how unfair the entire thing is. You can stomp feet and insist how it should be, but you can't make everyone play by the rules you've defined.

In my mind, if the broker is getting a ton of calls and 10+ people are asking him the same question, it's probably a good time to update the ad with that piece of information.

 

[ranger58sb]

Posts 45, 46, 47 [as well as many other posts on this thread] are why I purchase boats from owners... not brokers.

Sounds good on paper... but it's not easy finding the owner of a specific boat that may be for sale.

Partly depends on how a seller has advertised, of course.

But we saw no sellers doing their own advertising for either of the two specific boat models we were pursuing from about May 2020 through June 2021. For that matter, there weren't many broker listings for those two models, either... and we could watch them being "picked off" Yachtworld one at a time...

If we'd waited to find a seller to talk to.... we'd still be boatless...

-Chris

 

[Nick14]

FWIW and IMHO, I'm sensing just maybe the beginnings of a shift in the used boat market.

For the past year, the yachtworld criteria I searched daily would come up with less than 10 new boats a day (usually 3-6, sometimes none). Over the past few weeks I've noticed this has now increased to 20-35 a day. Supply of boats in the market may be creeping up.

I've also noticed several boats staying on the market for a month or two and having one or even two non-trivial price cuts, something I didn't see much of at all over the past year.

In the past week I've received calls from two brokers on boats I originally reached out about a couple of months ago. At the time my inquiries were snarkily rebuffed with comments along the lines of 'I've gotten more offers than I can keep track of', now letting me know that the boats are available again.

I've also heard from a couple of friends with boats both saying things along the lines of they 'just can't do it' regarding diesel fuel prices north of $6/gallon, also saying it might be time to call it quits.

In our neighborhood, after two years of literally no houses coming on the market (and our getting unsolicited calls every week from realtors asking if we'd like to sell our house), there have been 7 listed in the past two months.

These are purely subjective and personal anecdotal observations. But just maybe the combination of stratospherically high fuel prices, the sinking awareness that they're here to stay for a while and probably aren't going down anytime soon, and the increasing drumbeats foretelling a coming economic decline/recession/stagflation (whatever you want to call it; Elon Musk put it as having a 'super bad feeling about the economy'), we might just be beginning to see the start of FOMO: Fear of Missing Out.

To be sure there are still boats listed on yachtworld that seem to show 'sale pending' after just a couple of days. Any 'correction' in boat prices might also take a stair-step saw-tooth path downward. What can happen with commodities or capital goods is people get used to a price of 10, when it comes down to 8 things seem like a bargain and prices get bid back up to 9, decline to 7, bid back up to 8, and so on. But the inevitable trend is downward, though how long it might take is anyone's crystal ball guess.

The only certainty in life is change.

 

[twistedtree]

What I'm saying is that brokers over the last two years are getting more phone calls and E-mails than they can respond too in a given day. It's simple math.

You're operating under the assumption that you're the only person calling this guy, or that you're the only one calling on this boat. You are literally the 50th person on a given day asking a myriad of questions. Of the 50 people that call and E-mail to ask these questions, maybe 4 will follow-up. Just offer any simple $50 item on Craig's list and sit back and watch the number of E-mails that roll in. 10 with just "IS this item still for sale?" only to get no reply when the response is 'yes'.

Again, I never said you didn't have the right to ask, or that you don't deserve to get an answer. I'm simply pointing out the reality of your situation. There is a time and a place in the process.

Those that are working the process are buying boats. Those that are fighting the process are railing on online forums about how unfair the entire thing is. You can stomp feet and insist how it should be, but you can't make everyone play by the rules you've defined.

I think you are right if you want to elbow your way through the crowd. Be a sight-unseen, no contingency, cash buyer, and you will find your way to the head of the line. That is indeed the reality of the market, or at least it has been.


I think Nick's point is that it's just not a crowd he wants to mingle with, let along elbow is way through.

 

[Nick14]

I think you are right if you want to elbow your way through the crowd. Be a sight-unseen, no contingency, cash buyer, and you will find your way to the head of the line. That is indeed the reality of the market, or at least it has been.

I think Nick's point is that it's just not a crowd he wants to mingle with, let along elbow is way through.

Thank you @twistedtree. You said it perfectly, much more eloquently and better than I could.

The new boat buying process has been so much nicer, a complete delight (other than the wait for it to be built). The complete polar opposite in every way from my experience trying to buy a used boat.

 

[twistedtree]

The new boat buying process has been so much nicer, a complete delight (other than the wait for it to be built). The complete polar opposite in every way from my experience trying to buy a used boat.

But now you have to tell us what you are building....