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Old 03-01-2016, 12:43 AM   #21
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What a terrible event for everyone involved. I was just at Sundance two weeks ago while in Portland. I make it a point to drop in and say hello to Nick when time allows. We nearly purchased his 42 LRC while boat hunting and moored at Sundance while bringing our boat up the Columbia from Poulsbo. Nice folks & nice facility.
Thankfully there was no loss of life.
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Old 03-01-2016, 12:55 AM   #22
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Ted-I have a friend here in Seattle who is a forensic arson investigator, retired from the Seattle FD, he now works for a firm that does insurance investigations. I have talked to him about it one time because I had the same thought as you. How the hell can you figure anything out? It is pretty amazing what they can find. He showed me one huge warehouse fire here several years ago that killed 3 firefighters. Looking at the pics, it was just a massive sodden mess where the building had collapsed from the fire and from about 12 hours straight of water being pumped on it by about 20 firetrucks. Yet they were able to eventually determine where it started, how (arson by a disgruntled employee!), what accelerants were used. All that was used to convict two people of arson and manslaughter. A lot of close observation and a lot of science involved!
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Old 03-01-2016, 02:26 AM   #23
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The only additional information I've seen is just that the fire hydrants were not able to supply the water needed. Doubt it would have made any difference, but could be a concern for others in the area.
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Old 03-01-2016, 05:58 AM   #24
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Ted-I have a friend here in Seattle who is a forensic arson investigator, retired from the Seattle FD, he now works for a firm that does insurance investigations. I have talked to him about it one time because I had the same thought as you. How the hell can you figure anything out? It is pretty amazing what they can find. He showed me one huge warehouse fire here several years ago that killed 3 firefighters. Looking at the pics, it was just a massive sodden mess where the building had collapsed from the fire and from about 12 hours straight of water being pumped on it by about 20 firetrucks. Yet they were able to eventually determine where it started, how (arson by a disgruntled employee!), what accelerants were used. All that was used to convict two people of arson and manslaughter. A lot of close observation and a lot of science involved!
Thanks, still amazing to me. Understand conceptually what an arson investigator does and what they look for. It's just hard to imagine that they can find the correct evidence in such a massive volume of debris.

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Old 03-01-2016, 09:31 AM   #25
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We had our much loved Scout 187 Sportfish stored at Sundance. We have been in touch with insurance and will be made whole again but it still does not take the sting out of our loss. We loved that boat.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:04 AM   #26
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We had our much loved Scout 187 Sportfish stored at Sundance. We have been in touch with insurance and will be made whole again but it still does not take the sting out of our loss. We loved that boat.
You will be made financially whole again. The reality is you will still have suffered a loss. Even financially, you'll have the cost and effort to find a replacement and perhaps even additional cost getting the replacement boat to the condition of the one lost. A lot of time and effort. The replacement boat likely more expensive than the one lost although it doesn't have to be.

I'd rather have my five year old boat any day than someone else's five year old boat valued the same.

We feel for you. We know it's painful. We're just thankful there wasn't loss of life in Portland. Definitely a reminder of what can happen and why we do all need good insurance.

A thought to Sundance a moment too. Depending on their policy they may incur a significant unreimbursed cost. I doubt seriously that they have property coverage that will even come close to the cost of replacement for the facility. I sure hope they have good business interruption insurance. On top of the direct losses, they've lost a lot of good customers as well and substantial trust and goodwill has been lost.
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Old 03-01-2016, 11:09 AM   #27
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We had our much loved Scout 187 Sportfish stored at Sundance. We have been in touch with insurance and will be made whole again but it still does not take the sting out of our loss. We loved that boat.
MyCow - Sorry to hear about your boat Amigo, I hope there is not a big hassle with insurance etc. The folks that own the Marina must be living a night mare, now. Hope things go well with them. Tonto
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Old 03-01-2016, 11:16 AM   #28
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We had our much loved Scout 187 Sportfish stored at Sundance. We have been in touch with insurance and will be made whole again but it still does not take the sting out of our loss. We loved that boat.
Sorry to hear of your lost boat. Glad it wasn't that beautiful Krogen, but it sucks to lose a boat.
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Old 03-01-2016, 11:44 AM   #29
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Going to the marina today and see the wreckage. I have also been assigned to a claims adjuster and have e-mailed a list of personal property to my insurance company.
The fire was about 600 feet as the crow flies from where we keep Tamaroa and she was never in danger so it will not affect our summer plans for cruising. The most important thing is that there was no loss of life and hopefully Sundance will rebuild as there is a need for direct to water dry storage in Portland.
Just by coincidence the Scout dealer moved to a location just 2 blocks from the fire. I may just have to check out the new models.........
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Old 03-01-2016, 02:29 PM   #30
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I have always been worried about the prevalance of "boat stacks" especially covered or indoor ones. There are quite a few of them up here around the PNW. There is an outdoor one, on the northside of Lake Union that had a fire about 2 years ago. The fire started from someone setting off fireworks on July 4th from condos above the stacks. One still lit landed in a boat. Something like 30 boats burned. The only reason it was not more is that there was a staff person there who could run the forklift and he alone saved most of the boats. Not to sure I would want my boat stored that way.
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Old 03-01-2016, 04:30 PM   #31
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MyCows, sorry to hear about you losing your small boat. I hope you come out of it OK.
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Old 03-04-2016, 02:57 PM   #32
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A small update on the fire. The arson squad, ATF and Oregon State Police did turn the facility over to the owner and insurance company. Although they will continue their investigation, they've found no evidence of arson.
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Old 03-08-2016, 03:55 PM   #33
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This made me curious so I decided to check with a facility here to see if they have sprinklers. They do.
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:01 PM   #34
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This made me curious so I decided to check with a facility here to see if they have sprinklers. They do.

Do you know if it is a code thing in Florida? or just business installed?

I would hope it is more of a deluge system vs something called sprinklers....to many flammables and high temp, fast burning fuels.
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:25 PM   #35
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Do you know if it is a code thing in Florida? or just business installed?

I would hope it is more of a deluge system vs something called sprinklers....to many flammables and high temp, fast burning fuels.
This is Broward County's amendment to the state Fire Code. I'm still looking to see what the State Code provides, if anything.

F-22. 2.3 Boat Storage:
In boat storage facilities with four or more boats, regardless of square footage. When boats are stored on inside or outside multilevel racks for in and out operation, automatic sprinkler protections shall be provided for the entire building or structure and each boat in accordance with the Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, NFPA13.
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:28 PM   #36
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When fuels are involved, water isn't your friend, since it floats on top of the water and is simply spread to a larger area. Only foams that ride atop the water / fuel mixture and exclude air are viable, but the open air space of most lift / rack storage buildings are so large that it would require an immense amount of foam to protect the boats. Even if it works and kills the fire, all the boats sprayed with foam would require cleaning of the foam residue.

I suspect insurance is simply the cheaper route, with good business practices to mitigate risk in the rack.
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:29 PM   #37
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This is Broward County's amendment to the state Fire Code. I'm still looking to see what the State Code provides, if anything.

F-22. 2.3 Boat Storage:
In boat storage facilities with four or more boats, regardless of square footage. When boats are stored on inside or outside multilevel racks for in and out operation, automatic sprinkler protections shall be provided for the entire building or structure and each boat in accordance with the Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems, NFPA13.
Sounds like it's just applicable to rack storage?
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:37 PM   #38
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When fuels are involved, water isn't your friend, since it floats on top of the water and is simply spread to a larger area. Only foams that ride atop the water / fuel mixture and exclude air are viable, but the open air space of most lift / rack storage buildings are so large that it would require an immense amount of foam to protect the boats. Even if it works and kills the fire, all the boats sprayed with foam would require cleaning of the foam residue.

I suspect insurance is simply the cheaper route, with good business practices to mitigate risk in the rack.
A deluge system displaces enough air/cools the fire front to quell a fire. Thus my comment of "deluge system" over sprinklers with just wet the fuel.

USCG aircraft hangars have these systems and I would guess many others hangars do too....at least they used too...maybe they have been replaced by higher tech stuff as the USCG takes its aircraft safety seriously.

We put out many a fuel fire with fog nozzles in military fire fighting schools with just water...the trick is really displacing the O2 and cooling the fire front below combustion.

But it does take a lot of water....and deluge systems usually have to have their own water storage tank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fog_nozzle

A fog nozzle is a firefighting hose spray nozzle that breaks its stream into small droplets. By doing so, its stream achieves a greater surface area, and thus a greater rate of heat absorption, which, when compared to that of a smoothbore nozzle, speeds its transformation into the steam that smothers the fire by displacing its oxygen. Specially designed fog nozzles (with no stream adjustment) have been certified by Underwriters Laboratories (UL) for use on Class B & C hazards
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:38 PM   #39
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Sounds like it's just applicable to rack storage?
That's what the Portland facility was I believe.
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:47 PM   #40
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I believe to meet the standards they indicate it would have to be some form of deluge system, but I haven't been in the boat storage unit or looked that carefully.

I would think from common sense there are many regulations regarding the storage of plastic, the storage of flammable materials, the storage of liquids, all of which a boat storage building has.

This is a document on the subject. Here is part of the foreword:

Specific criterion for the design and installation of fire protection for boats stored on racks inside of buildings is currently lacking. NFPA 303, Fire Protection Standard for Marinas and Boatyards requires that automatic sprinklers systems comply with the provisions of Chapter 12 of NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems for Group “A” Plastics. However, NFPA 13 does not specifically address indoor rack storage of boats. Fire test data of
boats in rack storage is needed to establish more specific requirements for fire control and protection of this type of vessel storage. This project recognizes and addresses this problem by providing a literature review, documenting loss history, and carrying out a hazard analysis of fires involving indoor rack storage of marine vessels in boatyards and marinas. The information helps to clarify additional
research needs that, if addressed in a subsequent research project and ultimately completed, would establish important design parameters such as water demand, automatic sprinkler placement and other essential design requirements for the control and extinguishment of
unwanted fires. The results this study, and such a follow-up research project, are of direct interest to the Technical Committees responsible for NFPA 303, Fire Protection Standard for Marinas and Boatyards and NFPA 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.


http://www.nfpa.org/~/media/files/re...rage.pdf?la=en
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