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Old 10-08-2011, 12:52 AM   #41
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RE: Newbie Advice

We have read and value all of your input to this thread. We really thank all of you very much as all of this information has been very useful as we try to work out the dizzying array of options available to boaters.

I must say that I am still resistant to the idea of a wood boat, the caveat is my admiral really enjoys the "boaty look" of the wood boats we have seen. Here in the California delta region, that we are exploring, covered floating berths appear to be the norm rather than the exception. After bumping our size range a few feet I have to admit (dare I say) the houseboat option is looking feasible for a potential first craft. I always thought of houseboats as travel trailers on pontoons, the reality I am finding is in our chosen region a line called Gibson appears fairly common and almost looks(by houseboat standards at least) aerodynamic? Kind of a split level sorta boat with a mono-hull design. For those familiar with the region we have little desire to venture much west of the Antioch bridge. After looking at a map we purchased, it would appear to have plenty of relatively safe boating area available for us to get our sea legs under us.

We are what I would assume to be the very basic looky-loo stage but the options are promising. I am beginning to see the logic of what some have recommended as enjoying the hunt, so to speak.

After sitting down and dedicating a line item in our monthly budget, we feel more confident that our dream of boat ownership will become a reality. We have set aside approximately 5 times our anticipated mooring fee and wonder how realistic (in generic terms at least) that seems to you folks here on the forum? Keeping in mind of course that we are planning on paying cash for the boat, does this albeit generic amount seem kinda in the ballpark as place to start? Our anticipated realistic actual usage of the boat is every 2nd or 3rd weekend as we still have school age children. Week long plus outings will be as often as possible during the summer months. Mid week dinners at the dock will be very doable too as we live within 30 minutes of our anticipated area to berth the boat.

As always your thoughts are valued and appreciated.
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Old 10-08-2011, 08:01 AM   #42
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RE: Newbie Advice

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CPseudonym wrote:
We have read and value all of your input to this thread. We really thank all of you very much as all of this information has been very useful as we try to work out the dizzying array of options available to boaters.

I must say that I am still resistant to the idea of a wood boat, the caveat is my admiral really enjoys the "boaty look" of the wood boats we have seen. Here in the California delta region, that we are exploring, covered floating berths appear to be the norm rather than the exception. After bumping our size range a few feet I have to admit (dare I say) the houseboat option is looking feasible for a potential first craft. I always thought of houseboats as travel trailers on pontoons, the reality I am finding is in our chosen region a line called Gibson appears fairly common and almost looks(by houseboat standards at least) aerodynamic? Kind of a split level sorta boat with a mono-hull design. For those familiar with the region we have little desire to venture much west of the Antioch bridge. After looking at a map we purchased, it would appear to have plenty of relatively safe boating area available for us to get our sea legs under us.

We are what I would assume to be the very basic looky-loo stage but the options are promising. I am beginning to see the logic of what some have recommended as enjoying the hunt, so to speak.

After sitting down and dedicating a line item in our monthly budget, we feel more confident that our dream of boat ownership will become a reality. We have set aside approximately 5 times our anticipated mooring fee and wonder how realistic (in generic terms at least) that seems to you folks here on the forum? Keeping in mind of course that we are planning on paying cash for the boat, does this albeit generic amount seem kinda in the ballpark as place to start? Our anticipated realistic actual usage of the boat is every 2nd or 3rd weekend as we still have school age children. Week long plus outings will be as often as possible during the summer months. Mid week dinners at the dock will be very doable too as we live within 30 minutes of our anticipated area to berth the boat.

As always your thoughts are valued and appreciated.
*
Hi again Craig Good to see youre still VERY interested, and to read the contents of your up-beat post.* You ol hull kicking fellow you!*
*
Pleased to hear you and your Admiral are enjoying your boat search.* Not only is it a great experience/adventure, but even more so than for experienced boaters, it is a very important learning experience for new boaters such as you and family.* Thats not to incline that experienced boaters arent always learning new things too... cause we are... thats one of the joys of boating a consistent learning experience.* You mention ... I am still resistant to the idea of a wood boat..., and, ... admiral really enjoys the boaty look.* IMHO wood boats are for boaters who are VERY experienced in maintaining and caring for wood boats.* But they are NOT for brand new boaters who have no wood boat experience.* That said, there are some very beautiful boaty looking wood boats that your Admiral may feel great attraction to... I recommend you steer her toward fiberglass, in the long and short run, once you purchase, you will be VERY glad you did.
*
As you are musing your boat design choice, houseboat in the Delta works just fine... as long as you do NOT plan to get into SF Bay... or God forbid - - beyond the GGB.* Gibson that Ive seen are an OK houseboat.* There are other good makes too.* I believe you would be extra pleased when using your boat, houseboat or otherwise, if it has a flying bridge.* Piloting from flybridge provides a greatly increased view of the water and proximity items as well as continual great views of long distance scenery that piloting from the salon complete misses out on in the Delta due to never-ending tall*levies on both sides of canals.* Believe me... scenery and general views on from the salon control station while cruising or docking is a 5 on scale of 1-10; whereas in comparison scenery and general views turns into 10+ on a flybridge!
*
In regard to your line item of 5X dock fee to cover annual coats:
-********* Say your boat cost $20K.* General rule of thumb is at least 10% of that per year for OHD (overhead coats, not including berth fee, fuel etc)... that = $2K annual.* Berth fee of say $300 a month ($3,600 per year) = minimum annual total of $5,600.* Thats not including fuel or fun/needed items you will at times purchase as additions to the boat.* So... IMO... your average annual coat may range between $8 to as much as $10K.* Some years turn out more expensive than others!
-********* Using your 5X dock fee line item... $3,600 x 5 = $18K.* I believe you have plenty calculated to care for your boat.* Unless you are figuring the 5X a considerably reduced dock fee than $300 per month I used as example.
*
Sounds like you and family have plenty of fun time available (planned) for using your boat, and you live fairly close too.* We dock at Paradise Point and live 99.8 miles door to door... we average 13 to 15 3 to 5 day weekends per year, cruising and hanging on the hook while we play and relax.* It appears from your posts that you and yours will love boating!* You have plenty of time for boat search and get ready for next spring... and, due to soft economy, boat prices are perfect to assist in your choice.
*
BEST O LUCK! Cheers, Art* *

*
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Old 10-08-2011, 03:06 PM   #43
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Newbie Advice

Craig
*
Appears you are advancing toward understanding and dealing with the nitty-gritty on some details regarding choosing your boats parts and portions, be it a cruiser, tri cabin, or houseboat... wood or fiberglass.* So... here is a brief list of things to be aware of on boat choice and*on accessories/items you may want, need, or simply enjoy having available on the boat you choose.* That said, many of the items I mention pertain to a boat that has living accommodations and that can stay at anchor for a few days or longer while being completely self sufficient.**It is likely the size and weight*of said boat will not be easily trailerable, but rather it will stay wet in a berth.* Perhaps other forum members will chime in to fill out input toward*your soon to occur choice of boat and item details.* One important thing... although they cost from $12 to $16 per foot in*LOA, I recommend you get a reputable surveyor to accompany you when you feel pretty darn certain that you want to lay cash on the table, and for sure before you do!* Again, Best of luck in your search. Art
*
Boat Detail Items:
*
Wood Boat:
Any rot at all?* When and with what was it refastened with? Wood stringers in good condition any rot?* Transom in good condition any rot, especially at cold joint with hull and bottom, inside and outside? Bow stem check inside and outside.* Hint... an ice pict pushed into wood tells much of the story.* Good wood and the*pick only imbeds or less with much resistance where as rotten/soft wood and pick may go from to many inches with little resistance until (and if) the pick eventually hits good wood beyond the rot.* Owner may not like you prodding with a pick... but oh well... you must know if rot exists before buying.* Under paint rot can hide from the naked eye! Has it any superstructure or hull leaks?* What was it finished with (i.e. paints, coatings, laminates... etc)?* You know I recommend against you purchasing wood, at least for your first hands-on boating experience.
*
Fiberglass Boat:
-********* Check to see if it has had or does have any blisters, above and below waterline.* If repairs to blisters are documented call the yard and speak with supervisor of the project to get opinion of the boats fiberglass long-term integrity.* David Pascoe has plenty to read re blisters.
-********* Check to see if the stringers are in good condition.* Most fiberglass boats stringers are wood encased with fiberglass.* Check for any cracks on the fiberglass of the stringers.* Check for rot. * There are ways to do this, again review Pascoe articles.* Some builders used close cell foam as stringer core, wherein they laid the fiberglass inter-woven with the hull... the foam should be fine, but because it provides little structural integrity -*check to see if cracks or separation from hull has occurred on the stringers.* With foam core the entire integrity/strength of stringer is the fiberglass.* With wood core it is shared structural integrity.
-********* If there is water in the bilge how did it get there!* Leaking thru-hulls?* Seeping hose connections to thru-hulls?* Leaking decks or windows?* Leaking water pump or other items*on engine?* The list goes on!
-********* Check for leaking windows.* If discoloration is noticeable around interior ice pick to see if the wood frame or panels are rotten!
-********* Check to see that anti corrosive anodes have been regularly maintained and that no deterioration has occurred to any below water metals.
-********* If it had outdrive(s) on transom check to see it has been regularly serviced and is reported to be in top condition.
-********* If it has straight shaft drive check on the stuffing box condition as well as condition of the shaft, prop, rudder etc...
-********* Check to find service record on the engine(s) and reported condition.* Number of hours on an engine is not the only thing thats important, because maintenance and usage style means a WHOLE lot too.* But if there is an hour meter, in general 300 minus is considered pretty low, 1000 +/- is mid life, 2000 + is considered old.* That said... If motors were poorly maintained and used roughly they may be ready to blow at 300 to 1000 hours.* Whereas if motors experience real good maintenance and gentle use Ive seen them last into the early 4000s.* Im depicting gas engines only, as that is likely what you will find in the boat type and size youre looking at.* Diesel engines are a whole other ball of wax!
-********* Check out the electric panel, fuses, receptacles, wiring... etc ...
*
Boat Accessories/Items:
-********* Genset is real nice to have 120 volt electricity available while at anchor especially if*boat equiped with electric stove, big mocro wave*and 12 volt refridge.* I like Kohler brand, but there are many good ones.* Condition of generator need sto be researched similar to boat engines.
-********* 120 volt shore power receptacle on boat with at least*a 50 marine cord
-********* Both 120 and 12 volt lights and outlets working inside boat
-********* Dink with or without outboard is real nice to have aboard... or in tow
-********* Heating of some type for those colder winter nights
-********* AC is nice if desired, but we do not find it necessary in the Delta, even on hottest days.* We have one but never activate it.* Of course we are swimming nuts, so staying cool is no problem.* Found that nights are always comfortable
-********* BBQ of some sort. *Yeah Baby!* Grilled steaks anyone!
-********* General assortment of swimming tubes etc
-********* Especially if boat is straight shaft to propeller drive I recommend a good dive mask, swim-fins/flippers, underwater flash light, and smaller bronze brush (small BBQ brush works fine)* This equipment is for going under boat while at anchor to make sure all anodes are clear of film, shaft, prop, rudder, thru-hull water intakes... etc... are kept scrubbed clean and clear.* Except for the coldest months I go under boat for this purpose about once a month.* Besides keeping underwater equipment in excellent shape it gives you a birds eye view of your crafts running gear and bottom condition.* This can save on needs for premature haul-out and can also let you know if something is occurring that may necessitate a haul-out for repairs... before the problem becomes a BIG expense.
*
Well thats my 2 cents theres of course more than what is mentioned.* Maybe others will add to or improve upon my list!* Once you get into the flow of being a boat owner/user for a couple years these things become 2<sup>nd</sup> nature!* Ciao, Art ***


-- Edited by Art on Saturday 8th of October 2011 07:43:37 PM
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:27 PM   #44
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RE: Newbie Advice

Quote:
CPseudonym wrote:

We have set aside approximately 5 times our anticipated mooring fee and wonder how realistic (in generic terms at least) that seems to you folks here on the forum? Keeping in mind of course that we are planning on paying cash for the boat, does this albeit generic amount seem kinda in the ballpark as place to start?
*Don't know if someone has mentioned this earlier in this thread, nor do I know if it even applies to houseboat-type boats.* But as a very rough but reliable rule of thumb, the ownership costs of older/used boats like most of us on TF have is ten percent of the purchase price of the boat per year.* Ownership cost includes insurance, moorage, electricity, fuel, service, maintenance, repairs, and upgrades.* In other words, everything except boat payments if the boat is financed.

So if you buy a boat for $100,000 you should figure on spending an average of $10,000 per year to own the boat for as long as you own it.* Some years will be less, but these will be made up for by the years that are more--- say if you have to have new exhaust systems installed or new engine mounts or a new shaft or some such expensive item.* And you might be able to keep the ten-percent figure down a bit by doing a lot of the service, maintenance, and repair work yourself.* But by and large, that ten-percent-per-year figure has proven to be pretty accurate.
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Old 10-10-2011, 02:51 PM   #45
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Newbie Advice

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Marin wrote:CPseudonym wrote:

We have set aside approximately 5 times our anticipated mooring fee and wonder how realistic (in generic terms at least) that seems to you folks here on the forum? Keeping in mind of course that we are planning on paying cash for the boat, does this albeit generic amount seem kinda in the ballpark as place to start?
*Don't know if someone has mentioned this earlier in this thread, nor do I know if it even applies to houseboat-type boats.* But as a very rough but reliable rule of thumb, the ownership costs of older/used boats like most of us on TF have is ten percent of the purchase price of the boat per year.* Ownership cost includes insurance, moorage, electricity, fuel, service, maintenance, repairs, and upgrades.* In other words, everything except boat payments if the boat is financed.

So if you buy a boat for $100,000 you should figure on spending an average of $10,000 per year to own the boat for as long as you own it.* Some years will be less, but these will be made up for by the years that are more--- say if you have to have new exhaust systems installed or new engine mounts or a new shaft or some such expensive item.* And you might be able to keep the ten-percent figure down a bit by doing a lot of the service, maintenance, and repair work yourself.* But by and large, that ten-percent-per-year figure has proven to be pretty accurate.
Marin You sound almost board!* No good Nation VS Nation debaters these days??* Just kidding...* My biz became too hectic to continue outside debates!*
*
I may be wrong, far as I know he hasnt mentioned price range, but dont think Craig is looking at $100K + boats.* Therefore in the lower price range 10% does not always hold true.* 10% of $20K to $30K is only $2K to $3K... And, $2 or $3K doesnt go far these days for annual boat ownership costs; especially if the boat due to age/condition requires even more up-keep and due to size requires same berth cost as the $100K contestant!.* See my post (two*above yours) regarding annual costs. Ciao, Art*

*


-- Edited by Art on Monday 10th of October 2011 02:54:26 PM
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Old 10-10-2011, 05:58 PM   #46
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RE: Newbie Advice

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Art wrote:!* *
I may be wrong, far as I know he hasnt mentioned price range, but dont think Craig is looking at $100K + boats.* Therefore in the lower price range 10% does not always hold true.*
This can certainly be true.* The one hard and fast rule one soon learns about boating is there are no hard and fast rules.* But when one starts talking about "trawlers" the boats that most ofen come to mind range from 32 to 50, 60 feet.* And they tend to have a fair number of systems on them from propulsion to plumbing to electrics, so they tend not to be overly simple boats.* And, if fiberglass and*in decent condition, they tend to run in the $75k on up into the several hundred thousand dollar range depending on size, age, and condition.* So for that type of boat, the ten percent rule seems to hold pretty true on average.

Of course you can buy an example of one of these boats for less-- perhaps a lot less--- than $75k.* But the chances are it will need a lot of work, so the ownership cost can be even higher, perhaps much higher.* And if you buy a brand new one the ownership cost will be considerably less than ten percent per year, at least for awhile until stuff starts wearing out.

But that ten percent per year figure seems to average out as being pretty accurate for boats like ours, for example.* Which is what I think of when I hear the (inaccurate) term "trawler."* For something like a Bayliner or a smaller Tollycraft, I don't know if the ten percent of the purchase price is still a good estimate.* Mabye it's more like fifteen or twenty percent given the usually-lower purchase prices of these boats.
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Old 10-10-2011, 06:45 PM   #47
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RE: Newbie Advice

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Marin wrote:But that ten percent per year figure seems to average out as being pretty accurate for boats like ours, for example.*
10% is a good rule of thumb for boats of a price...*true!* However, Craig has been recently mentioning looking into used houseboats in SF Delta.* And,*I believe of not too big a size.* I have learned the Delta's house boat offerings during last couple of years. *First time I moored inland, fun though, consistent swimming in fairly clear warm freshwater 6 to 8 months a year, basking-warm water in summer!* Anyway, back to Delta houseboats... there are quite a few older models in the 30 to 40 range for sale in the $15K to $30K category.* In SF Bay and Delta the soft economy has drastically reduced price on older craft but not so much on dock fees and general maintenance.* Your GB glass or wood?
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Old 10-10-2011, 07:05 PM   #48
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Art wrote:*Your GB glass or wood?
It's from the first year of fiberglass for American Marine.* The switch from wood to glass was made in mid-1973 in the company's Singapore yard.* Our boat's hull was molded in late '73, so the boat was probably delivered in early '74.* The first fiberglass GB36 was hull #360.* Ours is #403.* For about the first year of production each Grand Banks hull was molded under the direct supervision of Howard Abbey, the man who designed and built the original molds for the GB36 and GB42.* (He's also the man who helped Hatteras get started*with *fiberglass.)

In mid-74, with American Marine churning out GBs at a prodigious rate to meet the demand, the company overextended itself and was looking at potential bankruptcy.* Howard, who was getting concerned about his paycheck, quit the company in mid-1974 before things hit the fan*and went on to other projects.* American Marine brought him back a few times to help solve production problems that cropped up a few years later.

In 1988 Abbey's original molds finally wore out and the company made brand new molds for the GB36 and GB42.* They took this opportunity to make both models a bit longer, a bit wider, and signficantly taller for quite a bit more interior volume.

But those mid-73 to mid-74 GB36 and GB42 hulls are considered by some to be the best Grand Banks hulls ever built.* Gelcoat technology was not as good then as it is now so cosmetically the older glass GBs can look a little worn.* But the hull intergrity is pretty amazing.* Our boat needs a good paint job, but we are very happy to have a "Howard Abbey hull.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 10th of October 2011 07:06:33 PM
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Old 10-10-2011, 08:22 PM   #49
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RE: Newbie Advice

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Marin wrote:Art wrote:*Your GB glass or wood?
It's from the first year of fiberglass for American Marine.* The switch from wood to glass was made in mid-1973 in the company's Singapore yard.* Our boat's hull was molded in late '73, so the boat was probably delivered in early '74.* The first fiberglass GB36 was hull #360.* Ours is #403.* For about the first year of production each Grand Banks hull was molded under the direct supervision of Howard Abbey, the man who designed and built the original molds for the GB36 and GB42.* (He's also the man who helped Hatteras get started*with *fiberglass.)

In mid-74, with American Marine churning out GBs at a prodigious rate to meet the demand, the company overextended itself and was looking at potential bankruptcy.* Howard, who was getting concerned about his paycheck, quit the company in mid-1974 before things hit the fan*and went on to other projects.* American Marine brought him back a few times to help solve production problems that cropped up a few years later.

In 1988 Abbey's original molds finally wore out and the company made brand new molds for the GB36 and GB42.* They took this opportunity to make both models a bit longer, a bit wider, and signficantly taller for quite a bit more interior volume.

But those mid-73 to mid-74 GB36 and GB42 hulls are considered by some to be the best Grand Banks hulls ever built.* Gelcoat technology was not as good then as it is now so cosmetically the older glass GBs can look a little worn.* But the hull intergrity is pretty amazing.* Our boat needs a good paint job, but we are very happy to have a "Howard Abbey hull.



-- Edited by Marin on Monday 10th of October 2011 07:06:33 PM
Nice Marin, pleased to learn your GB is glass!* Our 34 tri cabin 77*Tolly is considered Ed Monks best Tollycraft hull design*of the era, a slightly down sized 37 convertible hull.* Shes roomy and built like a tank; Im pretty intimate with her... good gel coat too.* Can still shine like a penny, but wife and I are more into cruisen n usen our boats than shinen n whinen about them.* Wife likes to keep nice interior, I require near perfect mechanicals.... good boaten pair ehhh?* We enjoy using our Tolly out and about.* Both love to fool with our classic glass*Crestliner*tow behind runabout and*swim too!! *
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Old 10-17-2011, 07:46 PM   #50
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RE: Newbie Advice

Good stuff Art and Marin.

I had heard the ten percent figure somewhere else sometime back and it sounds prudent. Wife and I are budget nerds so we picked the amount of 5x anticipated berthage as a place to start. Hey it's on our budget so now we'll feel obligated to buy one Our true plan was to run the budget somewhat like a commercial real estate budget in that we would have an operational baseline and a sinking fund set in place to pay for things like engines, bottom jobs, etc.(I've been told 3 to 4 years between bottom paint is common in the Delta) Whatever the true numbers are they sound do-able on paper at least.

We went ahead and bought the dink first. 8' Livingston with a 4.5 hp Evinrude. Who knows, may throw it in at various places and tool around the marinas scouting for sale signs. Seems like a decent plan for places like Bethel Island where there is a high volume of boat sheds and fun to boot.

We are headed to Monterey this weekend for a day trip and decided to swing by Moss Landing and look at a Sailboat fractional ownership thing in the morning. I'll take a peek and see what they have to say. Can't be any bigger waste of time than some of the people and boats I have looked at already. Change of scenery is always a fun diversion.
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Old 10-17-2011, 08:12 PM   #51
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RE: Newbie Advice

Fractional ownership, or putting one's boat into a charter fleet, can be a way of reducing the operating costs of a boat. For some people that can be a major plus and may be the difference between being able to get into a cruising boat on their budget or not being able to.

We chartered a GB before we bought our own. It was a good way for us to find out if we even liked this kind of boating, but it also convinced us that we didn't want anyone but ourselves using any boat we might buy. The owner of the boat we chartered couldn't leave any of his personal stuff on board. The boat had to be kept spotless at all times--- no towels, washcloths, galley cabinets full of spices and sauces, books (other than a minimal collection of guidebooks to the area), no clothes in the hanging closets, you get the picture.

Plus everything you bring onto your boat for a cruise you have to take off the boat when you leave.

We have our boat set up just the way we want it, and much of the stuff on board is personal. Clothes, tools, galley items (my wife even has a small Cuisinart stowed under the oven), binoculars, foul weather gear, safety items, chart books, equipment manuals, and on and on and on. We don't have to return the boat to "charter ready" every time we come back from taking the boat out.

So for us the potential cost reduction of sharing the boat with other people or putting it in charter does not begin to offset the inconvenience of not being able to set the boat up the way we like it and leaving it that way. If we only used the boat a few times a year, chartering it or a timeshare might make more sense. But we use our boat year round so we want it to stay the way it is all year. We don't want to have to negotiate with other owners about every little item on the boat.

So there is a downside to frational ownership or putting a in charter as well as an upside. Which one is best for you will be dependent on budget and how you view owning and using a boat.
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