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Old 02-06-2015, 09:10 PM   #181
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Eye (or anybody) if you have the grooved bow rolled and all chain I don't see how the chain and anchor would not come up the way it went down. Can you explain how an anchor could come up any way but the way it went down?
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Old 02-06-2015, 09:22 PM   #182
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Eye if you have the groved bow rolled and all chain I don't see how the chain and anchor would not come up the way it went down.
A grooved bow roller would be nice. Our vintage of boat did not use these, but instead has large, relatively wide, flat surface rollers on the pulpit. Lots of freedom for the chain to do whatever it damn well pleases.
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Old 02-06-2015, 09:35 PM   #183
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I'll bet that's why they put that groove in the roller ... when they do. I would think a grooved bronze roller would be ideal.

But via your testimony I'm glad it's not a big deal to nudge the anchor into a user friendly attitude. And a swivel probably would make that adjustment even easier. I remember Delfin had a big Bruce and felt he needed a swivel to be able to more or less able to easily orient the anchor before pulling it aboard.
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Old 02-06-2015, 10:38 PM   #184
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First off I would like to recommend that you go with your plan for 5/16 chain. It is stronger than nylon. You won't have chaffing like nylon and it cleans up better when your in the mud.
I would caution you on the length of chain. I purchased 200 feet and used less than a 100 feet each time I anchored. And you always have the extra nylon at the back end of the chain just in case.
For any easy bridle hook we found the French made unit with the keeper pin to really work well
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Old 02-07-2015, 01:10 AM   #185
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First off I would like to recommend that you go with your plan for 5/16 chain. It is stronger than nylon. You won't have chaffing like nylon and it cleans up better when your in the mud.
I would caution you on the length of chain. I purchased 200 feet and used less than a 100 feet each time I anchored. And you always have the extra nylon at the back end of the chain just in case.
For any easy bridle hook we found the French made unit with the keeper pin to really work well
Attachment 37146
Thank you for the advice!

After much agonizing, I went with 150' of 5/16 G4 chain (COO is USA) and 200' of Sampson 5/8" 3 strand nylon.
I say agonizing, because I didn't want the excess weight of an all chain rode, (nor the expense) but I wanted enough chain to be able to day anchor and not have to stuff the rope part back into the hawse pipe every time I day anchored.

With my current set up (50' chain + 200' nylon) after pulling up the anchor, I'm always on my hands and knees threading the line into the hole. When it's windy, it makes me nervous as the boat drifts.

Thinking back to my 20 years of boating with smaller boats that had combo rodes I almost never anchored deeper than 50'.


I'm hoping what I've chosen is a good compromise for my style of boating.
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Old 02-07-2015, 02:43 AM   #186
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I'll bet that's why they put that groove in the roller ... when they do. I would think a grooved bronze roller would be ideal.

But via your testimony I'm glad it's not a big deal to nudge the anchor into a user friendly attitude. And a swivel probably would make that adjustment even easier. I remember Delfin had a big Bruce and felt he needed a swivel to be able to more or less able to easily orient the anchor before pulling it aboard.
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Rex Wrote:

Unroll rope or chain it will twist one way roll it up and it will twist in the opposite direction, garden hose, electrical cable, fishing line.

Why is this so? I asked this question at school, I was told the following by our physics teacher.

This is a natural phenomenon, Why? I cannot remember and don’t care because I cannot change it, but by knowing about it helped me to work with it when testing anchors.

This twisting phenomenon it is commonly known as chain warp, it certainly can have an effect on an anchors performance when setting (MINIMAL) - but rarely when set.

The longer the length of chain deployed the more twists you will get, when the chain is pulled bar tight these twist then try to rotate the chain straight, in normal—say up to 15 knots rarely straightening of the chian influences your anchors performance, by the time the anchors hold is sufficient to pull the chain bar tight—well buried can overcome these warp forces, rope is no different, this was extremely noticeable when we were testing anchors with the TATS RIG Tidal Anchor Test Skid.

The chain twist is more of an influence when continually pulling an anchor at set speed with a set load-- speed, when testing anchors non twist cable should be used - a 10 percent list of square when applying a continuous pull in a anchors design due to chain or cable warp will, can affect the holding power of that anchor, many that do not understand this chain warp effect will criticize an anchors performance from observation after power setting,THEY CALL IT LISTING- poorly set due to the design? Sometimes even with a swivel, because of force the swivels can become one body – rigid under load.

As a matter of fact we would not have been able to observe anchor Rhode twist and its effect had we not designed the TATS RIG.
We found with the TATS SKID WE COULD USE 3 MTR lengths of chain at 7 to one in straight mode, one meter of water on the beaches, (REAL WORLD CONDITIONS) that is no twist in the chain, NO SWIVEL, all anchor DESIGNS tested set and buried straight, ( no list )

We also found with the TATS we had no variations in wave height to contend with, identifying the bottom types with a tug almost impossible, with the TATS Rig identification of the bottom types was easy but still not perfect, we found moving 3 feet one way or the other all substrate types we tested in could still vary, at least we could observe what was happening , a slight slip in throttle speed increase can result in an increase in holding power with the anchor on test at the time, one of the worst attribute from testing from a tug is dragging across or in a previous drag impression from another design.

I think as long as one tests with a tug, anchor tests will always vary in performance and holding power that can defy past - other anchor test results.

Forget the stepped out roller for keeping the chain twist free, it won’t happen, as the chain is retrieved it will want to rotate, and as sure as your tucker goes in it has to come out, most times on retrieval the chain twist will rotate the anchor once broken free, if it doesn't the chain will eventually jump the step in the roller to relieve the natural phenomenon, twist, what the stepped roller will assure you of is if your anchor does come up upside down then that will remain its destination.

So yes a swivel can help to some extent to reduce Rhode twist (chain warp) as far as your anchor coming up the right way, remember a swivel will not always do the job, understand, the Ultra swivel will not have the same effect, and doesn't fit on every anchor design - it was specially designed for Ultra to ensure correct orientation against the chain twist, the ball does only give you approx. 35 degrees of line pull before it takes the strain of an effective extended shank.

No swivel will replace the robust ness of the anchors shank itself, the question is will it ever have to.

Yes we do have a device of which is called a boomerang, this will effectively retrieve your anchor the same way as it went down, no swivel – super strength, only downside like the Ultra won’t fit all applications but is simple and works a treat.

Well there is plenty in this post to wet your appetite for another long variation of speculation and intrigue.

Regards Rex.
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Old 02-07-2015, 06:44 AM   #187
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Thanks for coming in on that Rex, I kinda hoped you might.

So tell me, was my advice to Bruce above re the correct shackle set-up for the Sarca slot right…just incase you did not wade through the whole thread, it was posts #149 P8, & 173 P9. I would hate to think I was putting anyone wrong.

Also, do you agree I should lose the simple swivel I have there, like several here say, or leave well alone…? No pressure….
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Old 02-07-2015, 08:26 AM   #188
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Thanks for coming in on that Rex, I kinda hoped you might.

So tell me, was my advice to Bruce above re the correct shackle set-up for the Sarca slot right…just incase you did not wade through the whole thread, it was posts #149 P8, & 173 P9. I would hate to think I was putting anyone wrong.

Also, do you agree I should lose the simple swivel I have there, like several here say, or leave well alone…? No pressure….

Hi Peter,

Yes your advice to Bruce was fine, one thing - the shackle, depending on brand and design you may be able to use a shorter shackle than the one you have, just make sure it can clear the end of the shank without binding or sticking, I don’t have a problem with customers using swivels, if asked I will tell them if you want you can use one but I don’t believe you will need it.

However a swivel is a wearing part, as the swivel is mostly buried in sand it wears far quicker than one might expect, therefore regardless of strength in design - in my book it is a weak link, I haven’t explored all avenues as to where a swivel may be of an advantage, I am sure the argument will continue regardless of evidence, advice or speculation, if it is tied to an anchor- anchor thread then the answers are not simple.

I will say this, because you haven’t fitted your swivel directly onto the anchors shank-- you have full articulation alleviating any side loads via fixing the shackle first, as it is not an enclosed ball - you can easily check it for wear, like I said the Ultra swivel was designed specifically to fit Ultra anchors, it must be fitted directly without any shackle for it to work, you cannot fit them via a shackle to other designs if you want the anchor to right itself, many of the boats fitting Ultras have pull pits, an upside down anchor under a pull pit trying to enter can be a very costly exercise.

Take note, before purchasing one of these Ultra swivels understand they are subject to side loads, Ultra will tell you there is no problem with that and I have no evidence as to it being a problem with their brand , the other thing to check is make sure it will indeed fit your anchor if it is not an Ultra -they are not a cheap item.

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Old 02-07-2015, 11:34 AM   #189
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Thank's Rex,
It's amazing how much anchoring we can do in the winter w/o even getting close to our boats.
Your posts frequently offer much opportunity to "read between the lines". Takes time but there's often rewards.
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Old 02-08-2015, 04:59 AM   #190
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I've done it.

Ok, the swivel has gone. Are we happy now,?

PS, I do intend to replace that shackle connecting the chain to the anchor slot shackle, as on close inspection, it's a bit passed it's best. I might even go one size up as well. Now lets see if the bugger comes up every time the right way as Eric reckons it must. There is a groove in the anchor rollers.
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Old 02-08-2015, 05:33 AM   #191
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sleeping well tonight!

Thanks Pete!

Why do you have a white chain?

Where on earth did you buy that so long shackle and do you really need one that length?

Appearances are deceptive but the white chain looks stronger than the shackles. The chain should be the weak link, or the shackles should be stronger than the chain. Those SARCA hold tenaciously and last time I was in Manly (your Manly) someone gave me a shackle attached just like yours, pin through slot, except the shackle had been pulled sideways and the pin pulled out of the thread, no harm done, except he had to buy a new anchor from Rex.

With such a long shackle?

Jonathan

PS edit - I think you are using cable ties, might suggest Loctite (as well). close edit.
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Old 02-08-2015, 06:13 AM   #192
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Peter I always find the large heads on these sort of shackles a nuisance. There is a danger they can catch on something as the anchor slides over the bow roller. The anchor winch can exert a lot of force if something jams. Removing this is a simple modification worth considering

It is possible to drill a small hole in the head of the shackle and then cut the majority of the head off. There is still enough to grip the pin with some pliers to undue the shackle if needed.

You need to mouse with wire (the purpose of the small hole) rather than cable ties.

You can get special shackles with more streamlined pins, but they are hard to get especially in stronger materials.




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Old 02-08-2015, 07:16 AM   #193
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Djbangi wrote:

Thanks Pete!

Why do you have a white chain?

Where on earth did you buy that so long shackle and do you really need one that length?

Appearances are deceptive but the white chain looks stronger than the shackles. The chain should be the weak link, or the shackles should be stronger than the chain. Those SARCA hold tenaciously and last time I was in Manly (your Manly) someone gave me a shackle attached just like yours, pin through slot, except the shackle had been pulled sideways and the pin pulled out of the thread, no harm done, except he had to buy a new anchor from Rex.

With such a long shackle?

Jonathan

PS edit - I think you are using cable ties, might suggest Loctite (as well). close edit.
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Peter Djabi is right in the customer replacing his anchor from a failed shackle, difference being he has a No 5 Excel, (not a sarca) a tested bow shackle is what we insist on with the Excels, unfortunately he bought a cheap bow shackle, he was then caught in a fairly stiff blow, two other boats of around his size could not hold anchor so he rafted them up, next morning they were very great full and left, when our customer decided to weigh anchor I believe it was buried very deep from what he told me, any way he assured me that he had applied minor load to retrieve the anchor when the shackle let go, the pin was bent and had pulled the thread out of the bow shackle, most of this damage he believed happened during the night and the little nudge from his winch pulled it out and new anchor required.

From what I was told Djbangi may have a photo of the shackle?

Noelex Wrote:

Peter I always find the large heads on these sort of shackles a nuisance. There is a danger they can catch on something as the anchor slides over the bow roller. The anchor winch can exert a lot of force if something jams. Removing this is a simple modification worth considering

It is possible to drill a small hole in the head of the shackle and then cut the majority of the head off. There is still enough to grip the pin with some pliers to undue the shackle if needed.

You need to mouse with wire (the purpose of the small hole) rather than cable ties.

You can get special shackles with more streamlined pins, but they are hard to get especially in stronger materials.

Rex Wrote:

Peter you need not worry about Noelexs advice with the Sarca, the little do nut that prevents the shackle from going underside of the shank basically isolates the problem Noelex is talking about, the Stainless shackle could be a bit shorter but is not a problem, you have proven that, when you compare your stainless shackle to the thickness of your chain again I see no problem, if you want to make a comparison to a stainless swivel pin thickness again you are miles ahead. I am sure you would have sauced a good quality stainless shackle so rest easy, the Super Sarca requires the shackle pin to be threaded through the slide rail, as you have done is the correct way, if you fit the shackle u shape and pin through the chain the shackle can turn sideways and jam.

Your second shackle could also be of stainless - if you want and you can get them with countersunk heads, if it were me I would just leave it the way you have it.

With your joining shackle burr over the thread and then cut the ear of flush, worst scenario if you have to remove it cut it off and put on a new one, very cheap,

Regards Rex.
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Old 02-08-2015, 07:35 AM   #194
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Sorry Pete,

Something I did overlook, I have to agree with Djbangi and Noelex as in the cable ties,they are not the best idea, stainless wire works well among many things.

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Old 02-08-2015, 05:12 PM   #195
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An option for stainless fittings is to buy stainless lifting shackles. These will be in the Grade 50 range of any lifting catalogue. In America Suncor would be a good place to start. In Australia someone like Beaver will hold in stock (Beaver market shackles from Pewag).

It might be difficult to get the range of sizes (as Rex mentioned) and it might be best to take the components with you to ensure everything fits.

Grade 50 components are Rated and are used in lifting where corrosion is a big issue - so available in most countries. Having said that I ordered my rated stainless shackles from the UK, a company I think called Tecni Lift (Techni Lift?) as the ones (that I found) available in Oz were too big.

Jonathan

edit, I've just looked them up: www.tecni-lift.com

they ship small lots by normal air parcel post which works out to be quite economic in Oz and appear to handle all the major component suppliers, Pewag, Crosby etc.

close edit
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Old 02-08-2015, 05:42 PM   #196
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Peter, can you report how anchoring goes sans swivel. I still think the swivel motivation came from you, as a solution to my chain getting caught up on the shackle. I will remove the swivel and replace the existing Ronstan 12.7mm pin slot shackle with a "Long Dee" Ronstan with same pin(assuming it fits across the 20mm wide shank). The "ultimate strength" rating of these shackles is 8618kg, the published rating for shiny s/s anchor connector/swivels( which I would never use as a connector) at Whitworths maxes at 1350kg, I can`t find an advertised rating for the gal type I have.
Whitworths have 2 types of lock/mousing wire,I like the multi strand one, I learnt about using it from an aircraft engineer mate(they lock wire everything) when we prepared our rally car.
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Old 02-08-2015, 11:39 PM   #197
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Thanks all for helpful tips.

Now to answer the queries…

Even as I put those cable ties on, (as a temporary arrangement until I get some more stainless wire), I had a chuckle, and thought to myself, "when I put this pic up it will draw all sorts of comment re the ties, and that connecting shackle as well, because it is a bit rusty and only the same gauge as the chain". I was not wrong. I had thought about lopping off the heads of the shackle bolts, but they seldom appear to interfere with retrievals as my roller assembly is quite wide - actually wide enough sometimes the shank comes up flat side on and can ride far enough up the roller assembly to jam in the opening, until released with a kick. It will be interesting to see if that ever happens again with no swivel, or if it will always come up correctly aligned, like Eric says, as the rollers are grooved in the middle.

The trouble with the countersunk type of bolts through shackles and swivels is they stick so tight after a few years they have to be sacrificed and cut off to replace or even disconnect. How do I know..? Because for a time I replaced the existing swivel with one of this fancy ones, and that's what happened when I went to remove it to end for end the chain, and I have to cut it off with an angle grinder. So, I went back to the original simple swivel. I left the swivel on there because the PO had it there, and he said the chain might bunch up and jam if twist built up in it. Maybe that happened to him because his chain was so rusty, but I replaced it with new as soon as I bought the boat, so maybe it was never needed as you guys maintain. Vee vill see..

Actually, while my D-shackle, ( I think of them as U-shackles), is a bit longer in the U than strictly necessary, it does work exceptionally well. I don't see that extra length ever being an issue in terms of twisting. It's the biggest bugger that would fit in the slot comfortably. What I do see as possible is the chain catching on it if shorter like Bruce mentioned happening to his a few times. I suspect that extra leverage of the longer U pulls the shackle straight so it does not jam and bunch up the chain. I have never had that happen.

Watch this space - I will report over time. Rest assured guys, I will not rely on the cable ties. Having said that, it is amazing how much grunt one needs to actually undo a shackle that has been well-tightened and in the seawater on and off a few times, (in the case there yesterday of the galvanised connecting shackle, I had to use vice-grips and large spanner, and then only after spraying with penetrating oil and leaving a while would it budge. I notice quite a few people on our finger have no seizing on their shackle bolts at all, and I've never heard of anyone actually going adrift because of that - but I'm sure someone will be able to quote a case…

Oh yes, sorry, forgot. Djbangi's query re the white chain. Puzzled you had to ask actually Dj. Just to make the last metre or so stand out so I know to slow down a bit on the retrieval before the shank hits the roller, especially helpful in the dark, and because my chain counter is not so easily read where it is while one is watching the pulpit. This will show why...
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Old 02-09-2015, 12:23 AM   #198
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Peter,

You have gone to inordinate lengths!

Nothing wrong with painting a chain! We use a bunch of fine cable ties for the same purpose, knowing when the anchor will appear over the bow roller. But we have our chain painted so that we can approximate as to how much chain is buried. Our Excel disappears completely - the more chain that is buried the deeper the anchor. A deeply set anchor is a good anchor and one that is developing a high hold.

We have another set of cable ties at the bitter end to indicate when we have nearly all the chain deployed and that the bridle needs be attached at the cable ties. The cable ties go through the gypsy easily but need replaced once a year, once every 2 years - not sure the frequency.

It is interesting the numbers of people who do not mouse shackles, who have their swivel connected directly to the anchor, do not use rated shackles and when you see them at anchor - never use a snubber etc. and who never, apparently, have an issue! They are prime candidates for membership of TF!

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Old 03-04-2015, 06:21 PM   #199
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Eye (or anybody) if you have the grooved bow rolled and all chain I don't see how the chain and anchor would not come up the way it went down. Can you explain how an anchor could come up any way but the way it went down?
just noticed this old question what if there is mud on the anchor and it is not symmetrical? What if imperially it just keeps happening and does not match the theory? What if the theory is incomplete or wrong?
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Old 03-04-2015, 09:56 PM   #200
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Glad to hear from you.
Non-symmetrical mud on anchor? If the anchor rotates it should rotate the other way as soon as the torque gets great enough to cause the anchor to un-wind in the other direction. So the anchor should wind up in one direction X number of turns and unwind the same number of rotations in the opposite direction ..... just as the last chain link comes over the bow roller.

About the rest ............. I have no idea.
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