Need help on Balmar Alt/ smart reg choice

[Simi 60]

I have the opportunity to get a Balmar 24v J180 mount alt
https://balmar.net/product/9504-24-140-ig/

And a MC 624 regulator, looking near new for the right price.

Whilst the blurb says the MC 624 "Now includes lifepo4"
https://balmar.net/product/mc-624/

further digging shows "partial" (scroll down link)
https://balmar.net/balmar-technology/multi-stage-regulation/

What does this mean to me?

ALSO, seeing as we only run at around 1150rpm, what sort of output would we realistically expect from this?
I am thinking I'd be busting off the pulley on my 40amp Delco and installing it on this?

Thanks

 

[O C Diver]

In your first link, there is a product data sheet with some pretty nice graphs. If you're running 1,150 RPM and have a 3:1 ratio with the crank to alternator pulleys, it looks like you will get about 60 amps.

In a perfect world, you want to max out the ratio for best results. The alternator can turn 6,000 RPM as a maximum. Assuming the engine turns 2,500 WOT, the ideal ratio is 2.4:1. Obviously you can fudge it a bit if you know your not going to exceed 2,000 RPM, or atleast for an extended period. The larger frame alternators such as the Leece Nelville, have a much steeper ramp curve. With my cruise RPM of 1,200, and a 3:1 pulley ratio, I get almost full output from my 220 amp alternator.

Ted

 

[Insequent]

Ted's correct about about pulley ratio and output. My Leece Neville alts were setup to give high output at low engine rpm. It seems Balmar alts do not ramp as steeply. I guess the question is, what happens if your pulley ratio means that at high engine rpm you exceed 6000 rpm on the alt? If nothing much then you can be more aggressive on the pulley ratio. You might need to be to get much benefit over your existing alt.

I have Balmar 612 dual reg. Its been flawless for 11 years. They are highly programmable so you do not need to rely on the built-in battery options. You can set it up for LFP exactly the way you want. But it can almost do your head in stepping through the advanced menu and selecting the options using the magnetic screwdriver.

My understanding is that the Wakespeed regs were designed by ex:Balmar people, have all the programming flexibility you want BUT can be done with a modern interface. I would go that way.

 

[DennisB1]

To get a better estimate you need the drive pully diameter and the alternator pulley diameter. Also the max engine rpm. The goal would be to not go over about 5k alternator rpm at max engine speed. As I recall Balmar had some performance curves alternator rpm vs output. Not knowing details you probably would be in the 50% range of output at your 1100 rpm cruise speed. A double belt pulley would be needed to drive the alternator.

 

[w8n4sun]

Simi, we just had that exact Balmer 24V 140A alternator installed on our 2 mains with Wakespeed WS500 external regulators. We also run at 1150rpms and these produce 210-220A combined total.

 

[twistedtree]

My understanding is that the Wakespeed regs were designed by ex:Balmar people, have all the programming flexibility you want BUT can be done with a modern interface. I would go that way.

I wouldn't characterize it as a "modern interface". I'd characterize it as from a different cave in the caveman era.

 

[Insequent]

I wouldn't characterize it as a "modern interface". I'd characterize it as from a different cave in the caveman era.

My bad. I've not used one. But it is an significant advance on the Balmar magnetic reed switch interface isn't it?

 

[DDW]

No reason you can't set up the 624 for LFP - not like the Wakespeed but as good as any other out there. All voltages are programmable if you go to the advanced menu.

I tried a Balmar alternator (not that one) and it couldn't break even at idle - engine and field drew more than it made - and gave it up for a Delco. I sold the Balmar with 10 hours on it for half price, then bought the Delco for 1/3 of that new. Delco works much better.

The Wakespeed does have a modern interface, once you write an app to bury the command line ;-).

 

[Insequent]

No reason you can't set up the 624 for LFP - not like the Wakespeed but as good as any other out there. All voltages are programmable if you go to the advanced menu.

I tried a Balmar alternator (not that one) and it couldn't break even at idle - engine and field drew more than it made - and gave it up for a Delco. I sold the Balmar with 10 hours on it for half price, then bought the Delco for 1/3 of that new. Delco works much better.

The Wakespeed does have a modern interface, once you write an app to bury the command line ;-).

No need to write an app, just download it.
https://www.wakespeed.com/latest-version-of-wakespeed-app-released/

 

[Simi 60]

Simi, we just had that exact Balmer 24V 140A alternator installed on our 2 mains with Wakespeed WS500 external regulators. We also run at 1150rpms and these produce 210-220A combined total.

Thanks

I can live with 100 amps going in from one.
Better than the zero amps we currently get under power.

 

[Simi 60]

Ted's correct about about pulley ratio and output. My Leece Neville alts were setup to give high output at low engine rpm. It seems Balmar alts do not ramp as steeply. I guess the question is, what happens if your pulley ratio means that at high engine rpm you exceed 6000 rpm on the alt? If nothing much then you can be more aggressive on the pulley ratio. You might need to be to get much benefit over your existing alt.

I have Balmar 612 dual reg. Its been flawless for 11 years. They are highly programmable so you do not need to rely on the built-in battery options. You can set it up for LFP exactly the way you want. But it can almost do your head in stepping through the advanced menu and selecting the options using the magnetic screwdriver.

My understanding is that the Wakespeed regs were designed by ex:Balmar people, have all the programming flexibility you want BUT can be done with a modern interface. I would go that way.

Thanks for that Brian
Hopefully it'll be a once only thing.

 

[Insequent]

Thanks for that Brian
Hopefully it'll be a once only thing.

True. Read the Balmar manual (not very good) and then use MarineHowTo's article on doing it. One of the keys is to use the crib sheet Rod has in his article, but obviously with the parameters that you want to use. Have that in front of you as you step through the settings, Rod has them all in the correct order. You still need to be 100% focussed. It isn't all that difficult, just a PITA.

Also be sure to go through the Basic Settings menu as well, since that has the alt temp sensor selection in it. You DO want to be using the temp sensor. Then monitor the alt temp with an IR gun when its been running for a good length of time at full output. If its a bit close to the alt's temp limit spec you have a couple of choices. One is to alter the temp limit value in the reg. The second is to de-rate the alternator a bit using the Belt Load Manager. There are a number of steps, from memory each one is a 5-7% de-rating. LFP's can overload (overheat) an alternator easier than AGM's can.

Also, use a serpentine belt if you possible, otherwise a dual v-belt. And clearly "w8n4sun" pulley ratio would be good to know as they use the same alternator and same engine rpm at cruise.

 

[Simi 60]

True. Read the Balmar manual (not very good) and then use MarineHowTo's article on doing it. One of the keys is to use the crib sheet Rod has in his article, but obviously with the parameters that you want to use. Have that in front of you as you step through the settings, Rod has them all in the correct order. You still need to be 100% focussed. It isn't all that difficult, just a PITA.

Also be sure to go through the Basic Settings menu as well, since that has the alt temp sensor selection in it. You DO want to be using the temp sensor. Then monitor the alt temp with an IR gun when its been running for a good length of time at full output. If its a bit close to the alt's temp limit spec you have a couple of choices. One is to alter the temp limit value in the reg. The second is to de-rate the alternator a bit using the Belt Load Manager. There are a number of steps, from memory each one is a 5-7% de-rating. LFP's can overload (overheat) an alternator easier than AGM's can.

Also, use a serpentine belt if you possible, otherwise a dual v-belt. And clearly "w8n4sun" pulley ratio would be good to know as they use the same alternator and same engine rpm at cruise.

Eyes glazed over at the complexity
I hate complications
But we currently run twin v belts so that bits sorted.

 

[O C Diver]

Simi, we just had that exact Balmer 24V 140A alternator installed on our 2 mains with Wakespeed WS500 external regulators. We also run at 1150rpms and these produce 210-220A combined total.

To produce 105 amps per alternator, they would need to turn at around 4,500 RPM. With the engines turning at 1,150 RPM, thats a ratio of 3.9:1. That's impressive, but would max out the alternator (6,000 RPM) at around 1,550 engine RPM.

Ted

 

[Marco Flamingo]

True. Read the Balmar manual (not very good) and then use MarineHowTo's article on doing it. One of the keys is to use the crib sheet Rod has in his article, but obviously with the parameters that you want to use. Have that in front of you as you step through the settings, Rod has them all in the correct order.

And keep a copy with your changes in the ship's log or wherever you keep engine alternator information. I would not remember my settings the next day, so this information is handy for any future changes/troubleshooting.

 

[Cigatoo]

We have a Balmar 100 amp with external Balmar regulator on our 135 Lehman. We easily see 60 amps at idle. 80 amps plus at just over 1000 rpm. Lead acid batteries. Obviously depends somewhat on battery state of charge.

 

[Bmarler]

The new balmar regulator has a Bluetooth option. I’m going to be changing out my 612 for a new one soon.

 

[sunchaser]

The fascinating thing about this thread is how the longer distance cruisers are optimizing on board charging using fact based and hands on experience.

Which raises the question, are builders of new vessels on top of the on board charging systems as much as smart users?

 

[Don L]

For the regulator, it is a lot easier to program it while it is not installed by connecting jumpers to it and plugging it into an acc plug etc. than trying to do it after.

 

[tpbrady]

Tom,

They are probably ahead of RV manufacturers which are really backwards at energy management.

Tom

 

[DDW]

No need to write an app, just download it.
https://www.wakespeed.com/latest-version-of-wakespeed-app-released/

That app lets you build the configuration (with a lot of limits). Does not let you program the device or observe operation. The Android version does let you program, again with a lot of limitations. Off Grid has a better one but it still has problems.

 

[luna]

The Balmar alternator referenced by the OP suffers from a number of issues including very low output at anything below 2300 (alter.) rpm and a low max. rpm.

As it appears that there is no working alternator at present and I think a reasonably new LiFePO4 battery bank, I would opt for something like a Delco 36 or 40SI.
Yes, it will cost you something around $1K USD (+ freight) but you will get a brushless, (field coil is stationary) hairpin wound, and more efficient device that is capable of 8 or 10K rpm continuous. You may have to give up the isolated ground but that should not be a big deal.

Any of these Delco alternators will deliver more than twice the Balmar's current to the batteries as you chug along at 3000 alternator rpm.

Here is an interesting and revealing graph for a 12V 40 SI I got from Delco years ago.

One needs to recognize that the total power generated by the alternator is expressed in KW, which has to be factored by the efficiency, then divided by the system voltage (14V) to match the Ahs. shown.

The revealing part was the heat generated, which is KW x (Eff.-1)
For example this alternator at 3000rpm dissipates 5.8 x (0.67-1) = -1.914 KW in waste heat.
That's likely more than your tank that heats your water or the cube heater that warms your toes. No wonder alternators burn up.

One final word from Delco was, 3000 rpm was the worst (from a cooling vs heat generated perspective) rpm to run the alternator.

Good luck with whatever you do.

 

[Simi 60]

To produce 105 amps per alternator, they would need to turn at around 4,500 RPM. With the engines turning at 1,150 RPM, thats a ratio of 3.9:1. That's impressive, but would max out the alternator (6,000 RPM) at around 1,550 engine RPM.

Ted

Thanks for that.

The NTA855m is supposed to go to 1850.
We spooled it up near there during sea trials
But reality is in the past 7 years of usage, we've never gone past 1500 and that'd be 10 minutes at a time at best - entering or exiting a lagoon pushing big tide.

But what happens if the alt did spin faster?
Surely the "Smart" regulator would have something to say about it and save the alt from damage?

 

[Simi 60]

The Balmar alternator referenced by the OP suffers from a number of issues including very low output at anything below 2300 (alter.) rpm and a low max. rpm.

As it appears that there is no working alternator at present and I think a reasonably new LiFePO4 battery bank, I would opt for something like a Delco 36 or 40SI.
Yes, it will cost you something around $1K USD (+ freight) but you will get a brushless, (field coil is stationary) hairpin wound, and more efficient device that is capable of 8 or 10K rpm continuous. You may have to give up the isolated ground but that should not be a big deal.

Any of these Delco alternators will deliver more than twice the Balmar's current to the batteries as you chug along at 3000 alternator rpm.

Here is an interesting and revealing graph for a 12V 40 SI I got from Delco years ago.

One needs to recognize that the total power generated by the alternator is expressed in KW, which has to be factored by the efficiency, then divided by the system voltage (14V) to match the Ahs. shown.

The revealing part was the heat generated, which is KW x (Eff.-1)
For example this alternator at 3000rpm dissipates 5.8 x (0.67-1) = -1.914 KW in waste heat.
That's likely more than your tank that heats your water or the cube heater that warms your toes. No wonder alternators burn up.

One final word from Delco was, 3000 rpm was the worst (from a cooling vs heat generated perspective) rpm to run the alternator.

Good luck with whatever you do.

And this is why I have shunned the idea of getting something thus far.

If we really do need to top up the 840ah @ 24v lifepo4 , running the Genset puts in 120 amps via the Victron 5000/120 multiplus

The close enough to $3,000 AUD needed for decent on engine charging buys a lot of Genset hours

We also have a Victron skylla 80amp charger sitting there doing nothing - probably should look at hooking that up as well, Genset could probably run both at a pinch.

The near new looking 2nd hand Balmar was a nice idea if I can get it all for under $1k but given some of the information provided I'm starting to go a bit cold on it.

 

[Simi 60]

We have a Balmar 100 amp with external Balmar regulator on our 135 Lehman. We easily see 60 amps at idle. 80 amps plus at just over 1000 rpm. Lead acid batteries. Obviously depends somewhat on battery state of charge.

Simi, we just had that exact Balmer 24V 140A alternator installed on our 2 mains with Wakespeed WS500 external regulators. We also run at 1150rpms and these produce 210-220A combined total.

But posts like this get me keen on it again

Actual users saying 100 amps at around 1000 rpm
If I can get that for under a grand I'm back in again.

I really did want a backup plan just in case the Genset and the sun stopped working

 

[luna]

In my mind it boils down to the question....Is there any material benefit (Other than redundancy, if the genset fails) in charging the house bank in a meaningful way while you move from place to place? I think you also have significant solar.

If your answer is still Yes, then you need to figure out how that is done.

That process should not start by picking an alternator. You first need to determine your normal engine speed, (1,150 RPM) max eng. speed, (1850 RPM) existing crankshaft pulley sheave diameter, and alternator dual sheave pulley size options.

From those you can then look at what alternators actually fit on the existing engine, and get a really good idea from their output graphs what their output will be using different alternator pulley sizes and engine RPM.

I doubt the Balmar that you referenced would be your first choice once you get familiar with the process.
For example, if the sheave on your crankshaft pulley is 12" in diameter and at your 1150 RPM you wanted a 105A output, this alternator would need to spin at 5500 RPM (forget the cold, blue line on the graph, alternators running at full trot are not cold for long) and the pulley would need to be 12" x 1150 / 5500= 2.5" in diameter.
Likely made from Unobtainium, unless you enlist a machine shop and even then, the remaining "wall" thickness of about 1/4" makes it unreliable.
Plus you have no alternator RPM headroom.

Moving along to a readily available alternator pulley size of 3.625" nets this alternator RPM, if your crank pulley is 12".... 12" x 1150 / 3.625" = 3807 RPM.
At 3800 RPM the alternator outputs 70 Amps. Maybe thats good enough.
At Max engine RPM you have no alternator RPM headroom left, but thats OK, by me as your likely never there.

If your crank pulley is say 9" the alternator RPM drops to 2800 where it only outputs 45 Amps.

The math is relatively simple, finding the product that fits at a reasonable price remains the challenge.

 

[w8n4sun]

We've had this system running for 2 months now since we converted to LFP, I don't know the math regarding main/alternator pulley but can affirm we get that level of output from the 2 Balmer/WS500 set up. Our 24V 1000AH LFP house bank charged from 53% to 100% in just around 2hrs cruise time at 1150 RPMS on our last outing a couple nights ago.

Good luck with your eventual set up.

 

[Simi 60]

.

Moving along to a readily available alternator pulley size of 3.625" nets this alternator RPM, if your crank pulley is 12".... 12" x 1150 / 3.625" = 3807 RPM.
At 3800 RPM the alternator outputs 70 Amps. Maybe thats good enough.
At Max engine RPM you have no alternator RPM headroom left, but thats OK, by me as your likely never there.

If your crank pulley is say 9" the alternator RPM drops to 2800 where it only outputs 45 Amps.

The math is relatively simple, finding the product that fits at a reasonable price remains the challenge.

Again, I'm getting mixed messages.

On paper theory is what you are offering
Vs
w8n4sun and Cigatoo's real life numbers.

Heading downstairs to measure pulleys.

 

[luna]

w8n4sun

I don't doubt that at all, but you would need to run (according to the Balmar graph) the alternator in question at about 6000RPM (flat out) to achieve an output of 110 Amps. This could be done with a large crankshaft v-belt pulley or perhaps with 6 or 8 groove flat belts, which typically offer smaller diameter alternator pulleys.
Either way, you have no alternator RPM headroom left. Increasing engine speed for any reasonably long duration may not be a good idea.

This begs the question why is it called a 140A alternator? Marketing or maybe it's rated at a higher RPM than that shown on the Balmar graph.

It could also be possible that you have a Balmar 97EHD-24-110 which while loafing along at 4000 RPM outputs about 108 Amps.

I'm sure that you paid a lot of $ for whatever your Balmar configuration is and hope that you're happy with it & that it lasts.

 

[luna]

Simi 60

First, remember I know next to nothing about what other people actually have, nor do you.

I suspect Cigatoo's 100 Amp Balmar on his 135 Hp Lehman is 12 V. Think about it. If so, easily done.

w8n4sun's configuration if it is stated correctly (by w8n4sun & Balmar) has an alternator RPM headroom problem and is likely unachievable by you without a new crank pulley or a change to multirib flat belts.

When you emerge from the ER we will know more.