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Old 12-12-2013, 05:35 PM   #21
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I also have a question, we have a 2040ah bank, would a 3000w be good, also that's in 12v.
Figure out what your power needs are. You can stack some inverters (Outback is one) to get all the power you need. Regardless of the size of your battery bank and yours is good size, what you take out has to be replaced. So how you charge should be as important as inverting, IMHO.
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Old 12-12-2013, 05:35 PM   #22
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I saw this just recently on another trawler discussion....

XXXX has a Heart Freedom Combi 3000 inverter charger I personally installed at least ten years ago. Still inverts and charges just fine but recently developed a dangerous fault. We have two 30 amp circuits, each circuit divided into inverter and non-inverter loads.

I am finding continuity between both the AC1 and AC2 black ?hot? outputs of the inverter and the 12VDC negative ground at my main panel. There is measurable AC voltage now passing through the DC side. With shore power turned on the DC ground, engine block and gen set are energized at approximately 50VAC. The inverter case is properly grounded to the AC ground and the connections are clean and tight. I am guessing there is some sort of internal fault between the AC side and the charging side of the Combi unit. Both shore power circuits are wired through the inverter. There is no continuity between the non-inverter AC busses and the DC side.

For my next step I plan to disconnect the inverter AC inputs from the panel and put jumper wires from the non-inverter busses to the circuits that were powered through the inverter. That should safely restore complete dockside and generator AC power to all circuits and isolate the DC charging circuit.

Hopefully this step will also eliminate the AC leakage to the DC side.
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Old 12-12-2013, 05:47 PM   #23
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Figure out what your power needs are. You can stack some inverters (Outback is one) to get all the power you need. Regardless of the size of your battery bank and yours is good size, what you take out has to be replaced. So how you charge should be as important as inverting, IMHO.
Oh ok, those Victron units look nice because there Nmea 2k networkable.
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Old 12-12-2013, 05:48 PM   #24
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ideally it would be equivalent to the input power of the vessel less say hot water, and air conditioning/electric heat....30 amp, or 2x30 amp or even 50 amp (which is really 2-50 amp panels inside if wired nicely.

that way your vessel could be wired so the electrical demand would be transparent for "electrical dummies"......
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Old 12-12-2013, 06:09 PM   #25
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Oh ok, those Victron units look nice because there Nmea 2k networkable.
Oliver: What do you have on your boat now? Nordhaven currently uses Outback as standard equipment.

Outback Power Inc. - Marine

Not to be funny but I'm not sure how NEMA 2000 all integrates with charging and inverting?
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Old 12-12-2013, 06:12 PM   #26
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Oliver: What do you have on your boat now? Nordhaven currently uses Outback as standard equipment. Outback Power Inc. - Marine Not to be funny but I'm not sure how NEMA 2000 all integrates with charging and inverting?
Our boat is 2003, it has 2500watt inver/charger by Trace. It may have to be replaced, not sure we're having a guy look at it. also it gives you voltage parameters along with amps and other data I believe. Here's a pic of the PC interphase.
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Old 12-12-2013, 06:31 PM   #27
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Oliver: Good stuff. But don't rule out some of the others, just saying. NEMA 2000 isn't a cure all. Most of the higher end inverter/chargers have the ability to monitor data via a PC or their own controllers.
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Old 12-12-2013, 06:40 PM   #28
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Oliver: Good stuff. But don't rule out some of the others, just saying. NEMA 2000 isn't a cure all. Most of the higher end inverter/chargers have the ability to monitor data via a PC or their own controllers.
I wasn't saying I would choose the Victron because of the Nmea capabilities, it was just a cool feature I pointed out. Victron and Outback have great reputations, so neither way I can go wrong.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:05 PM   #29
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Our boat is 2003, it has 2500watt inver/charger by Trace. It may have to be replaced, not sure we're having a guy look at it. also it gives you voltage parameters along with amps and other data I believe. Here's a pic of the PC interphase.
I believe there was long term poster on these forums that posted something about severe problems with a Trace inverter, but I've been searching my memory/bookmarks/whatever and can't find it. I know a made a note of it, but just can't find it

I remember being surprised as I believe Trace has a very good (or at least big) name in the marine field. I also hope that I have not miss-identified the inverter brand name I remember being mentioned.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:15 PM   #30
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A pic of our current setup.
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Old 12-12-2013, 07:23 PM   #31
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Brian. To run the items you mentioned. (Cooktop , microwave , A/C etc.) I'd suggest the 3.6kW Outback. We use a pair of these to supply ALL our A/C needs.

Microwave is about 1.5 kW. Rack induction burner is up to 1.8kW. 800 kBTU air is 600 watts. TVs and computers hardly register.

More importantly is how long between charging you want your battery to last. We have a 1,000 AH/48v Lithium battery (4,000 AH 12v equivalent ).

I cannot recommend Outback highly enough.
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Old 12-13-2013, 08:10 AM   #32
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Please excuse my poor electrical knowledge.

If one were

A) buying a used vessel of approx 40-45 feet that had no inverter system (nor sizable battery bank) on board, or

B) building a Pilgrim 40 type vessel I am playing with here
Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

....and wished to make either vessel a more stand-alone vessel (away from dockside power) for considerable times,
what SIZE (power) inverter might be recommended for a 2 person liveaboard situation to include:
1) power for galley with convection/microwave oven, induction cooktop, coffee maker, efficient and good size refrigerator
2) power for computer and TV
3) power for at least one small air con at times

I've seen a number of different references and complaints with different inverter brands, but have no specific knowledge to quote at this time. But it does appear as those these Victron units are a real premium brand??

Brian, does the induction cooktop operate on 220 volts or 110 volts? If it is 220 volts then the normal inverter will not operate it.

If it is 110 volts then when the cooktop is used powered by the inverter you will have a large electrical draw. The combination of the ac refrigerator and the cooktop will be enough that a 2,800 or 3,000 watt inverter would be advisable.

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Old 12-14-2013, 12:08 AM   #33
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We have a Magnum MSW 3100W-160A unit and like it a lot. I met an electical engineer on a Shucker 50 that had his boat running off two 300A alts and two of the Magnums. He didn't think there was a better inverter available. The guys at West Marine when I bought it two years ago said they had never seen a Magnum come back yet they had never in recent years sold a Xantrex that didn't come back. We have an all electric boat run off a 1200ah bank of 6volts and twin 108amp alts and a 70amp alt. The inverter is inline after the shore 1,2,genset power selector switch.
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Old 12-14-2013, 08:22 AM   #34
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If you need 240 VAC for the range, then a pair of inverters can be ganged to make the 240 volts. Single induction burners are typically 120 V. A range w/oven or multi-burner cooktop will most likely be 240 V.

I have also heard good things about the Magnum (but never used one).
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Old 12-14-2013, 08:49 AM   #35
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110 vs 220 AC, 12 and 24 DC

I believe I would stick with only one voltage in the AC range,....the most common 110 voltage. I don't imagine a great deal of need for 220v AC on a vessel?

But at the lower DC voltage range would there be any advantages to having a 12 and 24 volt capability these days? Would an inverter have an easier job working from higher 24v supply of DC as apposed to 12v ??

If an alternative 24v supply seemed feasible in some cases, couldn't that easily be provided by the arrangement of the robust 6 volt golf cart battery bank?
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:01 AM   #36
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Charging Battery Bank

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Originally Posted by Larry M View Post
Figure out what your power needs are. You can stack some inverters (Outback is one) to get all the power you need. Regardless of the size of your battery bank and yours is good size, what you take out has to be replaced. So how you charge should be as important as inverting, IMHO.
I know this is a pretty board subject, but a few basic questions.
1) With wet cell batteries I had always understood that a slow rate of charge was best,....true or not?

2) There are inverter models that are just inverters, and there are those that are both inverters and chargers??
a) What generally are the positives and negatives of each type?
b) It would seem that in the interest of KSS it might be best to have these functions of charging the battery bank, and inverting from it, separated into two different units that could be trouble-shot, and repaired/replaced as individuals??
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:25 AM   #37
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The advantage of higher voltages , both DC & AC, is smaller wires to carry the same current.

Regarding slow charging of wet cells - it's been so long since I've used them , I have no knowledge other than making sure settings on charger are correct for type and size of bank.

The sad vantages of single charger/inverter are:
1. Less equipment - less weight - less space.
2. Built in auto change over from charging to inverting.
3. Single remote screen/control.

Disadvantage: if one function goes down, the other may fail at same time.

If you choose a 24 VDC battery bank , you can use DC/DC converters for you 12V needs. But if your engine alternators and starters are 12v , then you can't charge your house bank from motors. A major concern.
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Old 12-14-2013, 09:41 AM   #38
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The advantage of higher voltages , both DC & AC, is smaller wires to carry the same current.
I may have an electrical challenged brain, but I do know this fact....ha...ha

Quote:
Regarding slow charging of wet cells - it's been so long since I've used them , I have no knowledge other than making sure settings on charger are correct for type and size of bank.
I thought I remembered something about quick charging driving off more of the fluids. I also realize they can be overcharged.

One fellow I know swears by a solar charger to keep the batteries topped up when leaving the vessel unattended for extended periods.

Quote:
The advantages of single charger/inverter are:
1. Less equipment - less weight - less space.
2. Built in auto change over from charging to inverting.
3. Single remote screen/control.
Sometimes these days I am just less impressed with all of this 'automation' being controlled by the integrated circuit boards that seem to have a mind of their own, and/or get 'impregnated' with faulty Chinese electrical components (such as the faulty capacitors they spread thruout the electronics community a few years ago)


Quote:
Disadvantage: if one function goes down, the other may fail at same time.
Exactly


Quote:
If you choose a 24 VDC battery bank , you can use DC/DC converters for you 12V needs. But if your engine alternators and starters are 12v , then you can't charge your house bank from motors. A major concern.
Good point.
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Old 12-14-2013, 10:53 AM   #39
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I like solar. Of course you need a controller/charger between the PV array and the battery bus.

I set my solar charger to a higher voltage than my shore charger. - this keeps it charging even when plugged in.

My Outback controllers have been working continuously since fa 2008 w/o a hiccup. Genesun makes controllers for the marine environment in smaller sizes. I feel it is better to have the solar voltage about 2x the battery. My array is. 90v nominal charging a 48 v battery.

When choosing a controller make sure it has settings for the battery type you choose.
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Old 12-14-2013, 11:09 AM   #40
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Regarding automatic switching.

One nice thing about current crop of charger/inverters is they switch so fast , the clock on the microwave holds the time. Ditto other electronics plugged in to AC.

My current philosophy completely bypasses ANY switching among AC power sources. (Shore, inverter or generator) making operation seamless to the user.

1. ALL AC power used aboard is from the inverter(s ).
2. Shore power leads ONLY to the battery charger. New chargers can work OK on voltages ranging from 90 VAC to 300 VAC - 50 or. 60 Hz. Do if you're plugged in at the end of the dock with ancient wiring,you're charging OK.
3. Variable speed DC generator.
4. Other charging as desired. - engine alternators, wind, solar, re-generative motor/generator (hybrid )

You always have perfect AC power - 120V - 60 Hz.

No switching ever when leaving shore or starting the generator.

With a sizable battery , you can sit on the hook overnight w/o the genset running a modest amount of air conditioning.
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