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Old 08-11-2013, 05:35 AM   #1
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Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat

I have become real intrigued with this vessel design, after only discovering what it was back in Aug 2012.
Help Please, what is this vessel?
http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/general-trawler-discussion/19252-trawler-houseboat.html


There is a very nostalgic look to this design, and it is VERY live-aboard friendly with its layout. I've lived aboard two different boats on two occasions in my lifetime, and now I'm considering it again, But at my age (70 now) I've come to appreciate certain comforts I would like to have on a vessel. This 40 footer appears to have a nice size galley, a more roomy than most head/shower, a nice saloon/living room, and a very nice covered aft deck.
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It reminds me of an older Elco or ACF that I once sought to buy for living aboard back in my college days.,....or even of the Trumpy/Mathis houseboats,...or of a few European canal boats that I've also admired

It has a single 6-cyl diesel engine for power. I've always considered the in-line 6-cyl engine the BEST configuration for a 4-cycle engine. Some of them will run forever as they are inherently the best balanced, and they can give excellent economy.

I just missed buying one of these vessels this past Sept that I thought was in very good condition. Then again I missed a really good buy on one up in Boston several months ago. Turns out there were only about 40 of these vessels built between 1983 & 1989. And even while there have been numbers of inquires as to if any more will ever be built, there appears to be no plans for the production to be resurrected.
http://pilgrim-trawlers.wikidot.com/history

So my thought processes turned to; ….what would it cost to build such a vessel,....what would I change if I were to build such a vessel,...are there like-minded individuals out there that would be interested in owning such a vessel, etc??

This exercise in 'Redesigning the Pilgrim 40' may turn out to just be a mental exercise. It may never happen in reality, but it will be an interesting mental project.

http://pilgrim-trawlers.wikidot.com/
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Old 08-11-2013, 06:01 AM   #2
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This 'redesign' subject originally came up over on another subject thread, and the suggestion was made to start a new subject thread. Well, here it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian
If I were to redesign the Pilgrim 40 to be a steel hull below the deckline, what hull shape might be the best compromise? That's what I am researching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IslandEagle View Post
Naval architecture is a complex undertaking; if you really want to get a good idea of the answer to this question, it would be worth paying a competent designer for a few hours of their time. I'd highly recommend Tad Roberts, who you can find on here or at Tad Roberts Yacht Design. You might also have a look at Michael Kasten's designs, Kasten Marine Design, Inc. - Custom sailing and motor yacht design..

Scott Welch
Island Eagle
Yes Scott, it has been far too long since my studies of boat designing (1970-71), so I would definitely collaborate with a fully trained designer,
I have talked recently with Jay Benford who lives right across the Chesapeake Bay from me. I've also talked with Mike Kasten before on another project, and there is another fellow David deVillers in NZ who is on my list.
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:48 AM   #3
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Not really sure what you mean by "redesign", what aspect of the hull-form are you trying to improve?



I would be concerned that any major changes would take away from what I think is a near perfect design for it's intended function. If your intentions are greatly different then what is designed into the boat then perhaps after you firm up what you will be using the boat for, finding the perfect (for you) boat will be easier.

For us the Pilgrim 40 is just right, a bit "active" at anchor compared to a deep keel sailboat or deep draft trawler but with her shoal draft that is to be expected, a stern anchor takes care of this. I don't know how you would get the graceful curves she has with steel.

Have you seen the Pilgrim PLAY 43? (PLAY= Pilgrim Live Aboard Yacht)







New Pic from inflatable. (redone aft. canvas)

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Old 08-11-2013, 08:58 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by SCOTTEDAVIS View Post
Not really sure what you mean by "redesign", what aspect of the hull-form are you trying to improve?

Good question! Why monkey with a beautiful design? I love the lines of this boat and they should not be messed with.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:45 PM   #5
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It'd be hard to imagine a more complete coastal cruising design than the Pilgrim. If I built a new one, maybe I'd smooth it out a bit with modern windows and rounded corners, but that would be about it. When I get time, I'll play with it on Photoshop to show the subtle changes I mean.

OH wait. Maybe a stand-up engine room.
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Old 08-11-2013, 12:56 PM   #6
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The trouble with boats is....

none of them do everything well and the more you try...the worse they get at a bunch of things....

so the headache is defining what will be 75% (arbitrary) or better of your cruising needs and designing to those (an almost impossible task at that)...then refining it to see if you can get more without severely degrading what you already have...

then the ultimate test....living with what you wind up with because ain't no such thing as the perfect boat...only the perfect boat for you.
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:48 PM   #7
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Sweet and Salty, I like it just like it is.
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Old 08-11-2013, 01:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
It'd be hard to imagine a more complete coastal cruising design than the Pilgrim. If I built a new one, maybe I'd smooth it out a bit with modern windows and rounded corners, but that would be about it. When I get time, I'll play with it on Photoshop to show the subtle changes I mean.

OH wait. Maybe a stand-up engine room.

Not sure I like the thought of a Pilgrim made to look "more modern" some of the modern designs are the most ugly boats out there. You guys know the look, many are from Europe, uck!



For the record, I can think of no boats seen here with this classification , perhaps trawlers are just better looking.

The standup ER would work if we put the engine in the salon and just covered it with cushions and a slip cover.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:06 PM   #9
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The trouble with boats is....none of them do everything well and the more you try...the worse they get at a bunch of things....
God, do !!!
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:11 PM   #10
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I haven't seen the movie in a while, but this boat reminds me of the movie "African Queen" with H Bogart (i think). It definitely looks like a river boat and not an ocean boat to me. Overall, I really like the look of the boat. I am just not sure if it 'for me' though.
I am not sure how you would redesign it. I dont think it would hurt to have a full keel on it with some ballast or maybe additional stabilizing keels that could double to beach the vessel.
For what purpose would you want to redesign it?
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:13 PM   #11
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Bligh,
I agree. I'm very prone to want to modify things and even I would leave this one alone.

Here's a smaller and much lighter but similar boat.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/woo...lou-45775.html
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Old 08-11-2013, 07:17 PM   #12
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Let me correct an impression some of you have about this 'redesign' I have in mind, before things venture off into never-never land.

I like the looks of this vessel VERY much just as it is. I am NOT proposing to change the looks of this vessel's topsides/superstructure.

Some of the changes I want to look at are:
1) the construction method and materials
2) possibly a minor length increase to expand the owner's stateroom
3) an adherence to the KISS principle for onboard systems
4) etc

If you look back thru the evolution of this vessel design you will find a number of changes that were made to the original design over the short span of its production. One most notable one was a change in the layout of the galley and the head arrangements. I think it was a good change. There was also a transom door added on later models....good option.

I want to study the details of this vessel design in more detail, and make subtle changes where deemed advisable.

Again I emphasis I am not looking to 'modernize' the vessel in the looks department. It pushes all of the right buttons for me there.

PS: On the title of this subject thread I referred to this design alternatively as a 'canal boat'. I think a much better term would be 'coastal cruiser'
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Old 08-11-2013, 08:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by healhustler View Post
It'd be hard to imagine a more complete coastal cruising design than the Pilgrim. If I built a new one, maybe I'd smooth it out a bit with modern windows and rounded corners, but that would be about it. When I get time, I'll play with it on Photoshop to show the subtle changes I mean.

OH wait. Maybe a stand-up engine room.
I wouldn't fool around with the window design other than to get the framing into an all wood looking substance that did not require varnish upkeep, and that would slide and/or open extremely easy. There have been reports from some owners about problems with the 'slide materials' utilized.

As far as the shape I like it very much,....here on a Euro canal boat I really like, and on a classic Trumpy
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Old 08-11-2013, 10:36 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
....If you look back thru the evolution of this vessel design you will find a number of changes that were made to the original design over the short span of its production. One most notable one was a change in the layout of the galley and the head arrangements. I think it was a good change.
Change made to layout:

....older style with galley along cabin side, and smaller 'bath'
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....newer style with U-shaped galley, and larger 'bath'
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Old 08-12-2013, 01:05 AM   #15
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STEEL HULL, and Sandwich-Cored Composite Superstructures

Over on the "Hull Shapes...show us your bottom" subject thread I posted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
I'm thinking of a few modifications ?
1) Steel plate hull from deck level (bottom of that dark stripe on Firefly) down to keel, with a little harder chine shape like Island Eagle.

2) Island Eagle shape would be easier to fabricate in flat panel steel, and it would result in a little more displacement volume for the vessel.

3) That extra displacement shape would allow for a 'reasonably' thicker steel plate with less, and/or smaller-pieces of internal framing.
This extra weight of the hull would be down low contributing to less rolling moments.

4) Then we save weight on the top. The deck and all superstructure from the bottom of that dark stripe on Firefly all way up including
the roof of the saloon and pilot house would be built from resin infused polypropylene honeycomb panels. I believe you could save as much
as 40% off the current weight of that structure that exist. Wow, what that might do for her rolling motions.
Island Eagle's bottom
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:14 AM   #16
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Wow, what that might do for her rolling motions.

It might speed it up as less mass aloft will allow the boat to follow the surface water shape more easily.

Talk to cat owners about rapid motion in bean seas.
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Old 08-12-2013, 05:47 AM   #17
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Wow, what that might do for her rolling motions.

It might speed it up as less mass aloft will allow the boat to follow the surface water shape more easily.

Talk to cat owners about rapid motion in bean seas.
Yep...when you start from scratch....you better "design" it..not just glue a bunch of "improved" pieces and parts together from other boats and think it will work better.
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:30 AM   #18
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Why Steel?

Why steel for the hull,...why not fiberglass like most other production boats these days? One of the key words here is 'production boat'. Sure making up the plugs, then the molds for a production run of boats makes sense. But what if you don't really know how many copies you may build,...what if its a limited run geared for a specific market?? Then you are trapped with an up-front, expensive bit of tooling that you can not amortize over a goodly number of vessels.

But if we still consider a fiberglass hull, we certainly know by now we don't really want, nor need, sandwich core construction in the hull structure below the water line,...for that matter we might well leave it out of the hull structure altogether. That leaves us with solid fiberglass construction utilizing some decent resins, some decent fiberglass, and some good gel coats. Great Harbor Trawlers brags that their hull bottoms are solidly built with “laminates of more than 1-inch thick”.

When I start thinking about the labor hours to lay-up the laminates of that thick solid glass bottom, and their cost of quality resins in today's new oil price market, I just have to come back to the reality that just as tough a hull can be fabricated from a single, much thinner thickness of sheet plate steel at a fraction of that cost. And the steel's ductility makes it all the more appealing.

Why steel? It's an inexpensive material, easily fabricated, and very durable. It's a material that inspires confidence in a boat's survivability from mishaps and collisions by both experienced boat owners and newly minted ones.


Can we build the steel hull shape we might want, and can we build it at a reasonable price? I certainly believe so. I believe we could build an almost identical hull to that existing one in steel. I also believe it could be made even easier by modifying the hull slightly to a single chine, or maybe even a double chine if so desired.

I would propose that this steel hull could be built in a 'frameless fashion'.
http://5psi.net/index.php?q=node/11
Quote:
THE V/D STADT FRAMELESS CONSTRUCTION METHOD
This type of hull is built inside a frame rather than over frames. It is a very fast building method and I completed a 34ft hull & deck, completely welded and shot blasted and prime painted in 3 weeks flat
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As noted the computer cut steel panels are welded-up together while supported by this external jig-frame. Then the internal framing members (stringers, frames, bulkheads) can be added as deemed necessary. I've attached another photo example of a bulkhead with stringers. I think the Pilgrim design could get along fine with 5 of these major bulkhead types tying the hull sides together, and supporting the thick sandwich-cored deck I wish to place on top of their upper edges.

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Note that the welded-up hull, with the bulkheads all installed, could remain in the jig-frame fixture while the engine and other equips are being installed (no deck is installed yet). The deck piece, and then major cabin superstructure, could actually be assembled on another part of the shop floor and then brought over and placed onto the assembled hull.


There are several other advantages to this steel hull idea. You will note that I mention 'computer cut panels' of steel. This not only shortens the time of construction of the steel hull, it also makes it a potential kit-boat candidate.

It has yet another potential benefit. Unlike a fiberglass hull where I am married to a single bottom design, I can change this hull's bottom design readily if something new looks feasible.
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Old 08-12-2013, 09:42 AM   #19
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I know some of you have seen the Pilgrim website, for those that have not I offer this.


http://pilgrim-trawlers.wdfiles.com/...0_brochure.pdf


The link above is the org. sales brochure for the Pilgrim 40 and offers some of the thoughts into the reason for the design.

The latest listing of the "Fleet" is also on the website and lists the whereabouts of the 41 boats built.

Thanks for the kind words regarding the Pilgrim 40 folks, we know she is a niche boat and not for everyone but as a lover of all boats it's good to have verity.

Pilgrim Trawler Yachts - PILGRIM Trawlers

Regards,
Scott
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:59 PM   #20
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Having owned the 3rd Pilgrim built since 1998 I have a few things to comment on.

I think most of the changes were based on other than the designers ideas. The longer I've spent with the boat the more I appreciate the original design. The marketing changes do not add to the experience in my opinion. I can see the appeal, even the reasoning for the changes, but I think the only thing that should have been different is the electrical wiring.

One example is the rear entry. Great for the marina/yacht club, but when boarding from the water on the midships is the way to do it safely. The pitch of an anchored boat is a danger at either end of the boat. The vessel remains stationary at the midships in relation to the pitch. One does not have to time the exit to the waves or risk being bashed. The prop is well protected, but even better safety on the sides. If I should ever need to be plucked from the water, I want the skipper to be able to see me.

The berth is not walk around, but it is stand around. That is one can stand at the foot and both sides to make the bed easily, but doesn't take any extra space. Bags are stowed in the space on the far side while underway.

Living within her design results in a very comfortable and nostalgic experience.

As far as designing an alternative along similar requirements, I think the steel built outside framing idea has much merit. The interior would need to be totally different with regards to materials to meet a price point. Functionally this could be done. Would it have the same feeling (Humphrey Bogart)?

I'd hate to see people making too many changes to their "new" boats without living with the vessel through real life boating for some time. Methinks that one would find more comfort in changing ones thoughts to work with a Pilgrim rather than changing one of the Pilgrims to meet the thoughts that they have coming into owning one.

It is one of those things that one appreciates more in time.

All the bright-work takes some dedication. The rest of the boat is pretty easy to maintain. Keeping it simple would be key.
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