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Old 02-28-2014, 09:03 AM   #21
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I disagree with twistedtree. The real question you need to answer(and what psneeld is getting at) is what is AIS for? What is it's purpose? It's purpose is NOT for traffic/collision avoidance. Like was said above, there is no substitute for radar. If you think it is for collision avoidance, then you are being lulled into a false sense of security. Sure it can aid in knowing the movement of vessels. But it's primary purpose is right there in the name.....IDENTIFICATION!

But until every single vessel is required to have AIS, then your argument does not hold water. And no, I am not freeloading. I will equip my boat as I see fit as long as it is within the regulations. I boat in one of the busiest ports in the world(Houston). And I honestly don't care whether a pleasure boat is transmitting or not. I just want to know the names(there's that identification thing again) of the large boat(tanker, tow, etc) I am near so I can hail them on the radio and coordinate any passing/overtaking maneuver. It helps wonderfully in blind turns in the ICW where a tow may have 3 or 4 barges strung out 1200ft long. If you meet that guy in a turn you want to be able to IDENTIFY and talk to him instead of just appearing around a corner. Anyway.....that is my purpose for AIS. In these areas, regardless of the rules, I always consider myself the burdened vessel because physics says I am. I want to be able to identify and talk to the vessel that might cause me harm. I doubt he is that worried about me...
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:04 AM   #22
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And thus lies the rub...till mandated...you'll never see them all and what's the count right now....1-2% of boats/ships have them???? tops 1-2% and I doubt that....

I always chuckle at comparing boating to flying....other than not doing either with your head up your you know what...the more I try or see other's try to compare the two...the less I see the comparison. Sure one little part compared to the other of similar nature...like both have compasses...or both can run out of fuel...but comparing overall boating to overall flying I just don't get.

Boats go every which way except for the really big boys...most planes go to airports....lot's more predictable in my book...almost every comparison between the two to me has pretty substantial holes in it. Again...if you operate in high traffic areas...up goes the importance.....I avoid shipping areas because I don't need them...an I do transit DelBay, ChesBay, Norfolk, Charleston, Savannah, Jax, etc...but only to cut across or parallel the shipping channel (I don't need 45 feet of water to operate in).

Again for the record...I think AIS transponders are valuable tools...but like a Snap ON torque wrenchs...they are out of place in the kitchen drawer of most beginner handymen except for maybe one job in hundreds.
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:06 AM   #23
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...as I said there's way more things to hit and kill yourself out there other than what has an AIS transceiver. Until EVERTYTHING has one...you are better off learning to use RADAR like an AWACS aircraft or avoid traveling in limited vis.
Totally agree, and I have radar and use it. I didn't mean to imply AIS was a substitute or replacement for radar. I think most would agree that no one tool is a replacement for another, and AIS is no different in my opinion. That's why I say "additive". It doesn't replace radar, but rather adds additional information that is most often helpful. Similarly, radar doesn't replace looking out the window, but it sure adds to a visual watch.

I just see this trend where only big vessels will transmit AIS, and pretty much everyone else will only receive because, as has been pointed out in this thread, receive-only has near zero incremental cost. The result is that only big vessels show up on AIS, yet those are the vessels that are already the easiest to see visually, the easiest to see on Radar, the most likely to be monitoring VHF, and the most likely to understand and follow the rules of the road. The effect is to take a really good idea (AIS) and hollowed it out to the point of adding little to no value.
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:15 AM   #24
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Totally agree, and I have radar and use it. I didn't mean to imply AIS was a substitute or replacement for radar. I think most would agree that no one tool is a replacement for another, and AIS is no different in my opinion. That's why I say "additive". It doesn't replace radar, but rather adds additional information that is most often helpful. Similarly, radar doesn't replace looking out the window, but it sure adds to a visual watch.

I just see this trend where only big vessels will transmit AIS, and pretty much everyone else will only receive because, as has been pointed out in this thread, receive-only has near zero incremental cost. The result is that only big vessels show up on AIS, yet those are the vessels that are already the easiest to see visually, the easiest to see on Radar, the most likely to be monitoring VHF, and the most likely to understand and follow the rules of the road. The effect is to take a really good idea (AIS) and hollowed it out to the point of adding little to no value.
As I said...Inland Rivers....pretty important (as I have been told but haven't experienced but I'll take posters word on it for now)...

Most of the East Coast cruising (not the guy who sails NYC harbor every weekend...it might help him plan tacks)...because so few have it...it in my eyes it does have little or no value at this point...not till 75% or better of boats over 16 feet have it....till then as Baker said...all it really gives me is a name to use on the VHF.

And to the skippers that say they need speed and heading on a vessel to safely boat...wow...what have we done all these years in our toy boats that can stop or turn in a couple boat lengths.
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:30 AM   #25
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Difficult to understand why pros like Baker and Psneeld are not avid supporters of send receive AIS. But then I have to remind myself that old time goalies like Gump Worsley and Jaques Plante hated the advent of hockey masks.

Tends to make me think that there is a syndrome at work that says full AIS is for sissies. Count me as one wearing a skirt here. My send/receive Class AIS is into its 5th season and much utilized on our vessel and appreciated by the commercial guys, so they say when the weather is closed in.
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:39 AM   #26
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Sure one little part compared to the other of similar nature...like both have compasses...or both can run out of fuel...but comparing overall boating to overall flying I just don't get.

Boats go every which way except for the really big boys...most planes go to airports....lot's more predictable in my book...almost every comparison between the two to me has pretty substantial holes in it..
I think you would be surprised at how much the two have in common and I personally think pilots make pretty good boaters.

For a start, they tend to not run out of fuel
Do a thorough pre departure engine/systems check.
Are professional on the radio.
Pretty good navigators.
Are constantly aware of traffic in the area.
Tend to have a plan, and an alternative, prior to departure
Scan their engine instruments every few minutes etc etc etc...

There are more airports (many are uncontrolled) than harbors and there are many aircraft still flying without even radios never mind transponders.
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Old 02-28-2014, 09:53 AM   #27
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Just for kicks I started a Poll over here to get a sense of what types of AIS people have installed and/or plan to install.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:10 AM   #28
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I'd like to REALLY encourage you to get a full AIS transceiver (transmit and receive) so you can both see, and be seen. I think these receive-only devices are doing a huge dis-service to boating by leading people into believing they have AIS when they really don't. Tons and tons of people are checking "AIS" off their list because they can see the few boats that are transmitting, and now will never be visible to the rest of us. This seriously erodes the value of AIS, and slows it's full adoption.
I agree completely!


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Except Furuno NaveNet 3D systems. They don't accept AIS via N2K, nor do they re-broadcast their proprietary AIS on N2K so other devices can use it.
Yep, and so I had to buy the Furuno unit.

But...

Its nice to have easy integration of components into your main helm displays.

I do not know how other systems work but with furuno AIS targets appear right on your chart plotter displays, with heading lines emenating from them.

Very nice, easy. I like easy.
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:21 AM   #29
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I disagree with twistedtree. The real question you need to answer(and what psneeld is getting at) is what is AIS for? What is it's purpose? It's purpose is NOT for traffic/collision avoidance.

I disagree. AIS is a fantastic collision avoidance system.

Radar is great for open water, but near land masses the signal gets blocked.

I see this often where we boat. There will be a large tourist boat, just around the corner and you cannot see them on Radar. With AIS they know you are there, and you know they are there, allowing time to manuver, or make radio contact and decide on a passing schema.

The same thing applies in a crowded area, and the larger the boat the more important this is.

Yes, on my radar I can see targets. But it takes time for the eye to recognize target vectors. Ais provides that. I can see targets, and my chart plotter automatically draws its vector of travel so that I can visually see if there is a conflict.

And yes, echo trails kinda do the same thing, but echo trails see the history, AIS sees the future, and the future is what I'm concerned about.

Oh, and ther identification part is great too! If nothing more than for radio calls.

Instead of...

"pleasure craft off of beacon rock, this is MV Lisas Way"

We get....

"Seaside Charters this is MV Lisas Way, yould you like a port or a starboard passing today sir"
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:32 AM   #30
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I disagree with twistedtree. The real question you need to answer(and what psneeld is getting at) is what is AIS for? What is it's purpose? It's purpose is NOT for traffic/collision avoidance. Like was said above, there is no substitute for radar. If you think it is for collision avoidance, then you are being lulled into a false sense of security. Sure it can aid in knowing the movement of vessels. But it's primary purpose is right there in the name.....IDENTIFICATION!

With all respect, I have to disagree too.

First, I never ever said that AIS is in any way the only tool one should use for navigation. I said (in a number of different ways) that it's another tool. Something that can be used in addition to other tools.

And I think it's absolutely about navigation and collision avoidance - otherwise why report anything other than the ships name and call sign?
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:33 AM   #31
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I agree with Kevin, I recently changed from a crappy AIS receiver to a new Simrad AIS transceiver. Several times now when running in fog, I have seen boats altering course based on my broadcast AIS & calculated CPA (closest point of approach) while I was hidden from radar behind a large anchored ship or point of land.

I find the AIS data to be much more accurate than CPA (MARPA) via radar and in a busy harbor you get more information, earlier than radar provides.


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Old 02-28-2014, 11:07 AM   #32
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Our only experience so far has been up and down the Houston Ship Channel and we love our AIS transceiver, especially in the fog. It allows us to determine direction of travel and speed in an instant. Can also be done with radar but it is much more time consuming. And as Baker mentioned, it allows you see around corners and be able to hail other boats by name and they can also hail you by name.

The one thing that does annoy me about pleasure boaters with AIS, is having the unit transmit while they are tied to a dock in a marina. I don't know about other units, but our Sitex has a silent mode, it will receive but not transmit.

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Old 02-28-2014, 11:12 AM   #33
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............ The one thing that does annoy me about pleasure boaters with AIS, is having the unit transmit while they are tied to a dock in a marina. I don't know about other units, but our Sitex has a silent mode, it will receive but not transmit.

Bob
It's pretty common. I don't think you're going to change this behavior.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:14 AM   #34
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SomeSailor I tried to send you a private msg, did you get it? Thanks Tonto.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:14 AM   #35
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I think you would be surprised at how much the two have in common and I personally think pilots make pretty good boaters.

For a start, they tend to not run out of fuel
Do a thorough pre departure engine/systems check.
Are professional on the radio.
Pretty good navigators.
Are constantly aware of traffic in the area.
Tend to have a plan, and an alternative, prior to departure
Scan their engine instruments every few minutes etc etc etc...

There are more airports (many are uncontrolled) than harbors and there are many aircraft still flying without even radios never mind transponders.
Flew professionally for 21 years...know plenty of non-pilots that are just as if not more pro than flyer types...sorry...start a separate thread and every comparison I'll probably be able to counter it.

Remember I said boating in general and not too specific...sure punching a mega yacht into NYC in the fog as a professional captain...absolute similarities....daydreaming down the intracoastal at six knots I would hope would be less demanding as you don't need a license for it.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:26 AM   #36
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Difficult to understand why pros like Baker and Psneeld are not avid supporters of send receive AIS. But then I have to remind myself that old time goalies like Gump Worsley and Jaques Plante hated the advent of hockey masks.

Tends to make me think that there is a syndrome at work that says full AIS is for sissies. Count me as one wearing a skirt here. My send/receive Class AIS is into its 5th season and much utilized on our vessel and appreciated by the commercial guys, so they say when the weather is closed in.
There's many levels to the discussion...do I think AIS is a great tool/invention?...absolutely.

Can it or will it make shipping and commercial traffic safer?...hard to think it won't.

Don't take my skepticism of the tool and it's value as the same as its total use on the water....

Until WAY more boats have it...I just see it barely useful...as was pointed out...the vessels that are required to have it are pretty predictable where they will be and what speeds they are headed and they are probably also RAM or under Rule 9 so again we don't usually play in the same water by MY choice.

Since I started seeing it in use on commercial vessels I've been on and applying its function over my last several trips to Florida and back...only a handful of vessels in my vicinity would have had it onboard.(granted I travel a bit off season but even with the Fall/Spring migration I don't see it as a high value tool mingling with snowbirders on the ditch).
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:33 PM   #37
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Difficult to understand why pros like Baker and Psneeld are not avid supporters of send receive AIS. But then I have to remind myself that old time goalies like Gump Worsley and Jaques Plante hated the advent of hockey masks.

Tends to make me think that there is a syndrome at work that says full AIS is for sissies. Count me as one wearing a skirt here. My send/receive Class AIS is into its 5th season and much utilized on our vessel and appreciated by the commercial guys, so they say when the weather is closed in.
You missed on the psychoanalysis! It is simply a money issue. If you want to come install a transceiver on my boat, have at it. My only point was that it was my prerogative to equip my boat as I see fit. And it is yours as well.

And I have a comparison for you psneeld. AIS and TCAS in airplanes are. Basically the exact same thing. The difference being that where I operate my $100 million airplane with 170 trusting souls on board, a certain type of transponder is required. So it is 100% participation and it works quite well.

Is a AIS a good tool. Sure! So are you for the USCG mandating its installation and use? Maybe they could do it like airplanes...only require it in commercial high density areas?

And we can do without the condescending tone!... I am far from a pro!!
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:44 PM   #38
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Except Furuno NaveNet 3D systems. They don't accept AIS via N2K, nor do they re-broadcast their proprietary AIS on N2K so other devices can use it.
Didn't know that.Thanks for the heads up!
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Old 02-28-2014, 01:54 PM   #39
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I guess I just blew my argument....TCAS...Traffic Collision Avoidance System. And I said it was basically the same thing. Oh well....

The "participating" airplanes don't necessarily have TCAS on board. They just have to have a certain type of transponder that provides info to the TCAS that is required on larger aircraft. So they are transmitting data to be used by TCAS. Blah blah blah...don't mean to get off track...just saying there are similarities. The main reason you see the legislation in aviation is the potential for a massive loss of life. It generally does not exist on boats....at least not on recreational boats. So.......
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Old 02-28-2014, 02:12 PM   #40
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I guess I just blew my argument....TCAS...Traffic Collision Avoidance System. And I said it was basically the same thing. Oh well....

The "participating" airplanes don't necessarily have TCAS on board. They just have to have a certain type of transponder that provides info to the TCAS that is required on larger aircraft. So they are transmitting data to be used by TCAS. Blah blah blah...don't mean to get off track...just saying there are similarities. The main reason you see the legislation in aviation is the potential for a massive loss of life. It generally does not exist on boats....at least not on recreational boats. So.......


And I could go on and on.....
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