Alternator does not charge

[NightCrawler]

Leo - you might want to first pull the manual on that inverter and the control panel. We have exactly the same two items, installed a year ago. There are a number of options in the control panel that may or may not impact when, for how long and under what circumstances the charger(s) shore or alternator fire up. I've spent hours reading and playing with it and still don't fully understand all the settings. But ours is working perfectly.
Sidebar - if you are tripping the new dock power pedestals, try making sure the Inverter light is off before connecting to the dock source.

- Disregard. I'm a slow tiper. Glad u got it sorted out.

 

[LeoKa]

- Disregard. I'm a slow tiper. Glad u got it sorted out.

Your advice is still valuable. We did not check the controller during the test. I have already purchased a new alternator. Same brand, 160A. We are putting it in tomorrow.
However, if the existing alternator just needed adjustment, it would be nice to know. I'll bring it up to the guys.
I wanted to have a backup anyway. So, either the existing one is still all good, or needs repair. Either way, I'll keep both.
I'll the manual tonight, but I could only find one piece of paper so far.
Are you aware of an online source, which I can download?

 

[NightCrawler]

This looks like the current manual here

 

[djones44]

I have a CAT 3306 diesel, which includes an alternator 130A/12V, Leece-Neville. It seems that the alternator does not do much. It certainly does not charge the house banks, but now my cranking batteries are loosing voltage, as well.

I had an old Leece-Neville low-speed alternator and like you had a good battery charger for the house bank. I bought a new alternator off eBay for about $100 and swapped it out, not a Leece-Neville but they had one of those new, too. Mine was mounted by itself and the belt galloped at low RPM. I just got rid of it and opened up some needed space. Be sure to keep your double pulleys for the new unit.

 

[mdstrum]

Personally using one alternator to charge 3 banks all different types and sizes is problem. I notice the battery switch is combing them all. So the voltage regulator on the alternator is most likely sensing the Generator or start batteries as being charged and not passing any current. You can test this by moving switch to one bank and a time and see if things change. In order to do this correctly you smart regulator like this one from Balmar

Digitial Duo Charge: DDC-12/24

Your house bank is huge, the cranking batteries are not. and by having them on ALL, your inventer will draw them all down and you will not be able to start anything.

Sorry maybe I am not following your pictures but that is what I see the big clue isnote to move the switch at anchor is to protect the banks from each other.

If you do not understand the layout get an marine electrician, watch him and have him show you how it is setup and then I would correct if my conclusion is right on the combining as that will over work your small battery banks or never charge your large.

 

[garychurch]

Where is your voltage regulator? I had what I thought was a generator problem, but turned out to be the voltage regulator.

I agree that having a marine electrician to trace and LABEL (repeat LABEL) and draw you a reference schematic would be incredibly valuable for you and any future electrical work to be done by someone else. Every boat seems unique, and starting from scratch to figure it out each time you need to do diagnostics is nuts. Do it once and write it down.

Good luck.

 

[LeoKa]

This looks like the current manual here

Yes, I have this one. I've read it 10 times. Understand most of it, but some is not clear.

I was asking for the alternator manual.
Thanks anyway.

 

[LeoKa]

Where is your voltage regulator? I had what I thought was a generator problem, but turned out to be the voltage regulator.
I agree that having a marine electrician to trace and LABEL (repeat LABEL) and

Good luck.

My banks are being charged from shore and from the generator, if it runs.
The starting batteries are also charged from shore and from the generator.
The issue is, the alternator does not charge either.
This is why it seems that it was dead.
The new one is coming in, so we'll know soon, if it was the alternator, or a controller problem?

The dead alternator diagnosis comes from an electrician, who came out and tested the system. He will come back for other electrical works later, so I will the chance to pick his brain.

 

[LeoKa]

I had an old Leece-Neville low-speed alternator and like you had a good battery charger for the house bank. I bought a new alternator Be sure to keep your double pulleys for the new unit.

Did you have to adjust anything on the alternator itself? My alternator's installation instruction talks about adjusting the regulator on it.

 

[LeoKa]

The alternator is in and it seems to be charging. The pilothouse gauge for cranking battery voltage goes up to the 13V area. This did not happen before.
Further testing is necessary, while underway. Perhaps this Sunday.
The old one will be taken to a shop for testing and fixing. I need it as backup.

 

[FF]

"Did you have to adjust anything on the alternator itself? My alternator's installation instruction talks about adjusting the regulator on it."

If your V regulator is a loose part , not built inside the alt , you should contemplate a much faster charging 3 or 4 stage V regulator.

No matter how adjusted the auto brained V regulator does a poor job with a house bank.

 

[LeoKa]

I am back again on this subject.
The challenge I have now, is to be able to charge the battery banks, while underway. At this point, I have to run the Gen. to charge the banks. Since I have a new 160A alternator, it would be nice to use it for charging, without the Gen.
Someone suggested to put a direct charging connection to the alternator, which would charge the battery banks, regardless of inverter/charger.
If you think this is a good solution to eliminate the need for running the Generator all the time, how is this done? What do I need to buy and how to install it? Thanks.

 

[BIG CAT]

Have you looked into charging isolator?


https://www.emarineinc.com/categories/Battery-Isolators

 

[LeoKa]

Have you looked into charging isolator?
https://www.emarineinc.com/categories/Battery-Isolators

I did. My problem is not to isolate the batteries. I want to charge my banks from the alternator directly, when the main engine is running. As of now, the alternator only charges the cranking batteries, which I have two. My banks are 4x4 Trojans. I have switches to select each bank for use and also to isolate the cranking batteries while on anchor.

 

[gsholz]

The large alternator should always charge the largest bank directly. In this case the house bank. To charge the starting batteries use a combining relay, not isolators (voltage drop).

 

[BIG CAT]

Leo thats what the charging isolator is for. it allows you to charge multiple sets of batteries from one source(alternator) with out the risk of back feeding. when you wire it in the alternator output goes to the one post. then you run wires from the other post to the b+ battery terminals on each set of batteries.

 

[Irish Rambler]

I have had great success with, and highly recommend the ADVERC charge controller. Brilliant piece of kit and won't break the bank much better than Sterling. Go online adver.co.uk and read up on it.
I first heard of them being used on ambulances, I tried them on tail lift trucks in our family business, simply fit it and forget it. I had the same battery problems as most folks and bought one for the boat.
Be aware there are 2 types, 1 is suitable for twin alternators and the other for single alternator set ups.
Be sure you give all the correct info and they'll guide as to what you need.
I've no connection with them except as a very satisfied customer, they'll make wiring harnesses to order BUT you must give all the correct details as to your needs.

 

[LeoKa]

The large alternator should always charge the largest bank directly. In this case the house bank. To charge the starting batteries use a combining relay, not isolators (voltage drop).

The PO told me that the charging schema has been changed, when the boat was upgraded to 50A shore power. I have no idea why they set it up that way?
As you guys suggesting here, there is a way to charge every battery separately. So, why did they choose to charge the house banks only from the generator?
I did not know this after I bought the boat, but I found out very soon. I went on a trip for about 3 hours one way and dropped the anchor. I looked at the voltmeter and it showed very low voltage. There are some 110V appliances on board and the Inverter sucked down the batteries. Ever since, I have to run the generator to charge the house banks, while underway.
Plus, the alternator died very soon after the purchase, so I had to buy a new one. It is a good one, but only charges the cranking batteries.

 

[LeoKa]

Leo thats what the charging isolator is for. it allows you to charge multiple sets of batteries from one source(alternator) with out the risk of back feeding. when you wire it in the alternator output goes to the one post. then you run wires from the other post to the b+ battery terminals on each set of batteries.

I'll take your word for it. Hopefully it will give me the solution I am looking for. Thanks.

 

[LeoKa]

Leo thats what the charging isolator is for. it allows you to charge multiple sets of batteries from one source(alternator) with out the risk of back feeding. when you wire it in the alternator output goes to the one post. then you run wires from the other post to the b+ battery terminals on each set of batteries.

How about this one?
https://www.emarineinc.com/Victron-Energy-Argo-FET-Battery-Isolator-200-Amp

Will this interfere with my Inverter? Or, should I just go around the inverter completely and connect this to the batteries?
I have total of 8 (4x4) batteries in 2 banks, plus 2 cranking batteries. This Victron only talks about 2-3 batteries.

 

[OldDan1943]

The PO told me that the charging schema has been changed, when the boat was upgraded to 50A shore power. I have no idea why they set it up that way?
As you guys suggesting here, there is a way to charge every battery with the generator to charge the house banks, while underway.
Plus, the alternator died very soon after the purchase, so I had to buy a new one. It is a good one, but only charges the cranking batteries.

Buy 2 alternator. One for now and one for if the first one craps out while out to sea.

 

[BIG CAT]

How about this one?
https://www.emarineinc.com/Victron-Energy-Argo-FET-Battery-Isolator-200-Amp

Will this interfere with my Inverter? Or, should I just go around the inverter completely and connect this to the batteries?
I have total of 8 (4x4) batteries in 2 banks, plus 2 cranking batteries. This Victron only talks about 2-3 batteries.

I don't know about interfacing with the inverter but generally you go directly to the battery. I would make sure you get one that a little oversized for the max output of the alternator. You will need to match the cable size to it as well. iirc 2/0 should be good for 200 amps. But double check it once you know what length of the run. Also put a fuse on breaker in line for each battery bank.

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

Is there a need for two seperate house banks? you could connect them and have one large bank. Then use a combiner to charge the starting bank and the house bank with the alternator.... The same combiner will charge the house bank and the starting bank from the inverter/ charger. What you want to do is easy... and not expensive.

 

[OldDan1943]

Is there a need for two seperate house banks? you could connect them and have one large bank. Then use a combiner to charge the starting bank and the house bank with the alternator.... The same combiner will charge the house bank and the starting bank from the inverter/ charger. What you want to do is easy... and not expensive.

Based upon my own experience and my bad back, dont use 8Ds.
Thankfully, the last time I replaced all my 8Ds on my N46, they were delivered and installed by 3 young men with strong backs.

 

[Lepke]

I run everything thru my inverter. It's powered by three 48v banks and I run a separate 48v alternator on one of the mains. As the inverter draws down the bank, the alternator ups the charge rate and generally stays ahead of the inverter unless I use some big draw like a water heater. Then the bank slowly draws down. Now I never run a generator when the mains are running. I have 3 banks so I can go several days at anchor w/o running a generator. That's usually done when I make water and do laundry.
You can do the same on a 12v system with one alternator and a battery isolater. Or you can use a Sterling dc to dc battery charger.

 

[Maerin]

I'd start by making a diagram of what you have, how it's laid out, capacities of batteries, alternator, cabling sizes. I'd flat out ignore what the PO had used, you're already aware how well that configuration works. Changing the shore power to 50A seems pretty unrelated to how the 12V system is configured, so it would follow that there's some strange concepts in play of how things should work.

That's a diagram of where things are now.
Then- determine what you want to do, how you want to charge your 12V, bank capacity, alternator capacity, how much capacity do you need to satisfy your cruising intentions. Diagram it out.

That's where you want to be.
Put it on paper. If you can't make sense of it on paper, it's pointless to start stringing wire, adding a charging isolator, replacing an alternator or other random parts. To digress a bit, is there a chance that the switching that's currently in service can break the connection between alternator and load? Sure recipe for toasting diodes, & voila- no charge. If so, that might explain your alternator problems, and putting a new or repaired one back into the same configuration might just repeat the failure.

You're focusing on charging with the alternator. I get that, it's a pretty basic part of the 12V system operation, but it's part of the system. You need to look at the whole picture, or you're going to play hopscotch jumping from one problem to the next without a plan to tie it all together. Get some help from an ABYC electrician. There are a lot of qualified folks on the forum, but NOTHING beats having eyeballs on the whole system. The forum only knows what you show & tell us; there will invariably be something that's not clear or omitted. Oops! missed that.... A qualified electrician will pick up details peripherally that the inexperienced eye just won't register.
Maybe that's more than you want to get involved in right now, but in the end, it will be less costly to develop & implement a system plan than it will be to make piecemeal changes.

Do it right- so you don't have to do it over.

 

[LeoKa]

I'd start by making a diagram of what you have, how it's laid out, capacities of batteries, alternator, cabling sizes. I'd flat out ignore what the PO had used, you're already aware how well that configuration works.

Do it right- so you don't have to do it over.

I totally agree with you. I wish I had the knowledge of an electrician. Unfortunately, besides basic wirings, it is foggy to me.
I have talked to an electrician already and it is possible that he will do the job for me. I will hire him as my budget allows. I do want my electrical system cleaned up and organized. Some of the existing wiring is very ' home made ' type; others are very professional. The PO spent quite a bit of money on the 50A upgrade and the galvanic isolator installation. So, I have good bases.
I attach some diagrams, which was done by the electrician, who worked for the PO. It is not perfect, but it can give you enough info on the existing system.

Again, I will not do this alone. If something requires professional knowledge, I will not venture there.

Your opinion is valuable, thank you.

 

[Irish Rambler]

Good solid advice from Maerin.
I had a similar problem when I bought my boat second hand. As an ex-hire boat it was serviced by Bodgit and Fixit. I lived with constant flat batteries for a while and tried to make sense of it to no avail, so we started from scratch.
I had loads of black wires (some which were live) with maybe 8 or 10 just joined together with a bolt and big washers !
Each individual wire was checked for load, colour code, fusing, corrected and recorded.
I fitted 2 new alternators controlled an Adverc battery charging system, Adverc were invaluable with simple to read wiring diagrams and their system was easy on the wallet.
I had about 25 lbs of redundant/useless wire when finished.
I can only echo Maerins advice.
Do it once, do it right.

 

[Bacchus]

I'll echo the advice and add... be sure to find an electrician familiar w boat wiring ( and ABYC codes) NOT just someone that does house wiring.
I didn't study your sheets in detail but it looks to me
Iike there are some glaring errors in the house bank AH calcs/ assumptions.

 

[LeoKa]

I'll echo the advice and add... be sure to find an electrician familiar w boat wiring ( and ABYC codes) NOT just someone that does house wiring.

Yes, I know it. I need a good electrician, but they are not cheap. The hourly rates are high and I am a low budget person. I can only do it little by little. $100-150/hr rate adds up really fast.