Liveaboards in south Florida - What are our rights?

[psneeld]

Some states have a "legal" description of liveaboard.... sounds like Florida and Georgia in my experience... other coastal states in warm climes may have needed to also. But businesses can call it whatever they want till it cross feeds with bureaucratic legal reasons.

Unless you can list a "legal" residence as defined by the agency/business (organizations encumbered by US federal laws and "real ID") you will be considered a lot of things but not meet their requirements for whatever you are seeking. True especially of defining domicile, banking, motor vehicles.... and probably more.

As a former liveaboard and full timer RVer... it takes a bit of address manipulation to get back into the "round peg in a round hole" syndrome.

 

[mvweebles]

I have encountered places where "Live Aboard" was defined as someone who did not have a legitimate dirt home address where they owned the home.

That is how the Florida statute/definition defines it (at part (a) does). But the issue here is the OP was hoping for tennant-rights' type protection as a liveaboard. The only use of "Liveaboard" I've seen is by Law Enforcement trying to dislodge derelict boats. But all a derelict owner has to say is "I'm a cruiser, not a liveaboard. I stay with my sister in Utah." There is no time criteria, nothing. So LEO has no practical means to say otherwise. I mean, not like they're going to investigate whether the sister in Utah exists, etc.

ShaunC in Post #27 seemed to infer there were some legal protections for Liveaboards in FLorida. I was just wondering if there were indeed more than the controversy of definition of a Liveaboard as applied by ICW communities trying to rid themselves of derelicts.

Peter

 

[PierreR]

One of the things that I found out through observation is that life goes much easier if you are known to use and tip dock hands.

 

[psneeld]

Being nice to dockhands goes even farther than tips in my experience (and I worked in the industry at that level)...they do "get it". Money helps but they see where it only gets you to a certain point.

Even BoatUS or Loop Association when the Florida and Georgia anchoring laws were raging advised cruisers to never use the description for themselves as "liveaboards" but as "long term cruisers" or "full time cruisers".

 

[DBG8492]

Even BoatUS or Loop Association when the Florida and Georgia anchoring laws were raging advised cruisers to never use the description for themselves as "liveaboards" but as "long term cruisers" or "full time cruisers".

This was one of the toughest things for us to get used to. We are liveaboards - this is our home. We have dirt addresses - her dad's and my mom's houses, respectively, so we can still get driver's licenses, car registration, and whatnot - but our boat is our home. It felt like we were lying to dockmasters and marina owners if we classified ourselves as anything else.

That changed at my last marina, where the owner told me it was all part of the game and that in order to live our lifestyle, we had to play it or find ourselves locked out of many good places. This was after living there for a year, getting to know him, and making ourselves useful and, therefore, valuable customers.

So from there on out, we decided we were to be "long-term cruisers" for times when we needed a marina for more than a short stay.

 

[psneeld]

I learned early that bureaucracy and close mindedness necessitated beating them at their own game.

Like so many forms I fill out, if no reasonable box is there to check, lying is the alternative.

The USA has gotten good at making law abiding citizens criminals.

 

[Don L]

Normally doesn't matter if or not the State has a legal to them definition of liveaboard. What matters is what is in your slip agreement.

Far as parking spots go, the marina I am at has about 100 slips. It has 6 parking spots. Pretty much the only way the people in townhouses and condo building know we are on the boat is if they know our car.

 

[Larry M]

This is from Port 32 Marina’s (was Ortega Lnding Marina in JAX) web site. There are 40 or so “full time cruisers” living there.

 

[Shaunc]

That is how the Florida statute/definition defines it (at part (a) does). But the issue here is the OP was hoping for tennant-rights' type protection as a liveaboard. The only use of "Liveaboard" I've seen is by Law Enforcement trying to dislodge derelict boats. But all a derelict owner has to say is "I'm a cruiser, not a liveaboard. I stay with my sister in Utah." There is no time criteria, nothing. So LEO has no practical means to say otherwise. I mean, not like they're going to investigate whether the sister in Utah exists, etc.

ShaunC in Post #27 seemed to infer there were some legal protections for Liveaboards in FLorida. I was just wondering if there were indeed more than the controversy of definition of a Liveaboard as applied by ICW communities trying to rid themselves of derelicts.

Peter

The reason I was referring to the statute is that unless your boat falls into one of those situations, they cant classify it as a liveaboard


Is your boat: A vessel used solely as a residence and not for navigation
A vessel used as a residence that does not have an effective means of propulsion for safe navigation.
Do you have a place of domicile that is not your boat?
If the answer to the 1st 2 are no and the last is yes, marinas cant consider you a live aboard. I remember someone in our marina years back challenged the liveabord on this basis and was left alone.


They cant overrule the state staute.

 

[Don L]

They cant overrule the state staute.

They can not "overrule" them, but 100% can have whatever limits they want to have for THEIR marina

 

[Shaunc]

They can not "overrule" them, but 100% can have whatever limits they want to have for THEIR marina

As long as it does not conflict with state statutes. Most operators will word it wrong and then you can contest they are in violation of state statutes.


I own rental properties and can do what I want min my house as long as I dont violate state statues.


As mentioned earlier I know someone who took on the marina and won based on this argument.

 

[mvweebles]

...... I remember someone in our marina years back challenged the liveabord on this basis and was left alone.

Now I'm confused. The only application of the statute for liveaboard I know of is LEO wanted to use it as a means to force a derelict to move along. Meaning LEO want the derelict to be termed a liveaboard but the derelict owner wouldn't cooperate and said they weren't a liveaboard so stayed put. This scenario has been repeated hundreds of times along the Florida ICW, and probably many other places.

If I understand you correctly, you're familiar with a situation where an owner proclaimed to be a liveaboard which granted special rights to remain in their marina. This is exactly what the OP hoped for so a specific citation would be tremendously helpful to her.

However, if the owner in your story had a contract as a liveaboard and the marina tried to terminate it early (perhaps they changed the rules and no longer wanted liveaboards) but couldn't because the boat owner said they had a contract, that's a contract matter, not s Florida statuate matter.

A bit more background would be helpful. I know the OP would be grateful. And I'm kinda curious myself.

Peter

 

[Shaunc]

Now I'm confused. The only application of the statute for liveaboard I know of is LEO wanted to use it as a means to force a derelict to move along. Meaning LEO want the derelict to be termed a liveaboard but the derelict owner wouldn't cooperate and said they weren't a liveaboard so stayed put. This scenario has been repeated hundreds of times along the Florida ICW, and probably many other places.

If I understand you correctly, you're familiar with a situation where an owner proclaimed to be a liveaboard which granted special rights to remain in their marina. This is exactly what the OP hoped for so a specific citation would be tremendously helpful to her.

However, if the owner in your story had a contract as a liveaboard and the marina tried to terminate it early (perhaps they changed the rules and no longer wanted liveaboards) but couldn't because the boat owner said they had a contract, that's a contract matter, not s Florida statuate matter.

A bit more background would be helpful. I know the OP would be grateful. And I'm kinda curious myself.

Peter

It was not my battle so this is 3rd hand information.


The person in question moved eventually but the sgory goes; the marina said no liveaboards and when the renter went to the operators and challenged them, they gave to him in writing they have banned liveabords and did not want anyone living on their boats in the marina. The renter got their reason and description in writing and challenged them stating they were in violation of the state statue and as he did not classify as any of the description in the statute, they left him and others liveabords alone.

 

[mvweebles]

It was not my battle so this is 3rd hand information.


The person in question moved eventually but the sgory goes; the marina said no liveaboards and when the renter went to the operators and challenged them, they gave to him in writing they have banned liveabords and did not want anyone living on their boats in the marina. The renter got their reason and description in writing and challenged them stating they were in violation of the state statue and as he did not classify as any of the description in the statute, they left him and others liveabords alone.

Ah. I see. I'm guessing the marina changed their written policy pretty quickly to better define what they mean by liveaboard. Too bad for the OP as she gave no reason for the expulsion.

Sadly, it's stories like these that explain why many businesses are hesitant to explain their actions, such as a reason for not hiring someone. Would really help the candidate to understand why they didn't get the job, but the risk to the business is just too great so it's safer to just say "we've had many qualified applicants but will not be moving forward with you. Best of luck in your pursuits."

Peter

 

[Don L]

The waters are full of sea lawyers

 

[Portage_Bay]

Exactly. Current marina allows 10 nights aboard per month. Previous allowed 3 days per week.

They can not "overrule" them, but 100% can have whatever limits they want to have for THEIR marina

 

[STB]

One needs to be careful. State law isn't all that applies. In much of Florida, the restrictions come in the form of city or county ordinances.

As a general rule of thumb, if you are consuming or occupying something that isn't yours, you should probably check with the owner, manager, or responsible authorities, or you might end up with an outcome other than the one you expected.

Some examples below...


Treasure Island, FL's code of ordinances:

Sec. 58-91. - Continuous habitation of vessels prohibited; live-aboards.
It shall be unlawful for a person to occupy or live aboard any houseboat or other boat equipped for habitation within the city. This prohibition shall not apply to individuals occupying vessels on a temporary basis for a period not to exceed 72 hours on the condition that the vessel shall contain a Coast Guard approved, self-contained sewage treatment or storage system. The 72-hour period shall not terminate as the result of temporary absence or removal of the vessel.

(Code 1985, § 20-61)


Or Clearwater, FL's Code of Ordinances:

Sec. 33.052. - Live-aboard vessels and temporary living accommodation permits.
(1)Prohibited; exceptions. It shall be unlawful for any person to moor or anchor any live-aboard vessel at any location within or upon navigable waters in the city for any period of time in excess of 72 hours, except as followsa)At a marina facility for which conditional use approval has been obtained, or a marina facility in existence as of October 13, 1985, for which conditional use approval would otherwise be required; or(b)At a dock or facility at which temporary living accommodation activities are not specifically authorized pursuant to the terms of a temporary permit issued to the owner or operator of the vessel by the harbormaster.(2)Temporary permits. The harbormaster shall have the authority to issue a temporary living accommodation permit, which permit shall be limited to 15 days, to the owner or operator of a vessel to be moored at a dock or facility at which temporary living accommodation is not specifically authorized, upon payment of a permit fee as set out in Appendix A to this Code. As conditions precedent to the issuance of a temporary permit, the owner, operator, or person in charge of the vessel shall consent to an inspection by the harbormaster of the vessel's marine sanitation and safety equipment; agree that no more persons will reside on the vessel than it was designed to reasonably accommodate and in no instance shall more persons reside thereon than there are permanent accommodating berths; agree not to place, discharge or deposit, or cause or allow to be placed, discharged or deposited any sewage, trash, garbage, petroleum products, hazardous chemicals or substances, or refuse material of any kind or description into the navigable waters while moored or operating within the city during the period covered by the permit; demonstrate that the written permission of the dock or facility owner to moor the vessel thereto during the period covered by the temporary permit has been obtained; and provide evidence of the availability of toilet facilities for the vessel's occupants while moored. Not more than six temporary living accommodation permits may be issued to the owners or operators of the same vessel in any 12-month period, and not more than two such permits may be issued in succession for the same vessel. The permit may be revoked at any time by the harbormaster upon a showing of probable cause that a condition precedent to the issuance of the permit has not been met or has been violated after issuance of the permit and, upon such a showing, no additional permit shall be issued to the permit holder or to any person shown to have committed a violation for a period of one year from the date of the violation. Any permit granted pursuant to this subsection shall be valid only for the place or facility specified upon the permit and shall be conspicuously posted according to the directions of the harbormaster.
(Code 1980, § 114.05; Ord. No. 8146-10, § 8, 2-18-10)



Or Gulfport, FL:

Sec. 6-1. - Definitions. A “live-aboard is defined as any person(s) owning and occupying such a vessel who uses a vessel as a residence and /or is occupying that vessel for four or more days and nights within a seven day period engaging in those usual and customary activities associated with a person’s residences or abode such as but not limited to, sleeping and preparing meals. This definition will also prohibit a place of business, professional location or other commercial enterprise, as evidence vessel used solely as a residence and not in navigation or any vessel for which a declaration of domicile has been filed pursuant to F.S. § 227.17.

Sec. 6-13.2. - Living aboard vessel prohibited; exceptions. (3) Authorized to live on board such vessels by the harbormaster on a temporary basis in the Gulfport Yacht Basin designated transient dock for a period not to exceed fourteen (14) days (three hundred thirty-six (336) hours) within any thirty-day period. Vessel/persons must first register with the harbormaster. All such transient lessees must sign an agreement acknowledging the responsibility for established fees, rules and operational requirements within the municipal marina. Vessels must contain a Coast Guard approved, self-contained, sewage treatment or storage system. (4) Authorized to live-aboard such vessel by the Harbormaster; persons owning or occupying such a vessel who uses a vessel as a residence and/or is occupying that vessel for more than four days and nights within any seven day period in the Gulfport Yacht Basin designated live-aboard berths. Such vessels may not be used as a place of business, professional location or other commercial enterprise, all such uses or related business, commercial or commerce activities are prohibited in designated live-aboard berths. All such live-aboard lessees must sign an agreement acknowledging the responsibility for established fees, rules and operational requirements.


Or Tarpon Springs, FL:

§ 5-20. - MOORING OF HOUSEBOATS.
A houseboat is defined as any boat used as a dwelling. The rules contained in this section shall apply to all boats being used as a temporary or permanent abode. The intent of this section is to prevent unrestricted anchoring or mooring of houseboats within the waters of the city.

(a)Any houseboat as defined herein moored or anchored within the water of the city for any period in excess of 72 hours or intended to be so moored or anchored shall require permission of the harbormaster.(b)The language of this section shall not be so construed as to prohibit any boat from occupying available space within the waterways of the city during a period of time reasonably necessary for the protection of the boat from inclement weather conditions.


Pinellas County, FL:

Sec. 130- 125. Enforcement. Consistent with F.S. § 327.4108(2)(b), a person may not anchor a vessel within any anchoring limitation area for more than forty-five days consecutive days in any six-month period, subject to the exceptions provided in F.S. §§ 327.4108(4), (5). Consistent with F.S. § 327.4108(6), a vessel within an anchoring limitation area must travel at least one mile away from the anchoring limitation area during the preceding forty-five days to comply with this Section. This Section is enforceable by law enforcement officers in accordance with F.S. §§ 327.4108(6), (7), which also provide the remedies for non-compliance with this Section.

 

[mvweebles]

One needs to be careful. State law isn't all that applies. In much of Florida, the restrictions come in the form of city or county ordinances.

As a general rule of thumb, if you are consuming or occupying something that isn't yours, you should probably check with the owner, manager, or responsible authorities, or you might end up with an outcome other than the one you expected.

Some examples below...


Treasure Island, FL's code of ordinances:

Sec. 58-91. - Continuous habitation of vessels prohibited; live-aboards.
It shall be unlawful for a person to occupy or live aboard any houseboat or other boat equipped for habitation within the city. This prohibition shall not apply to individuals occupying vessels on a temporary basis for a period not to exceed 72 hours on the condition that the vessel shall contain a Coast Guard approved, self-contained sewage treatment or storage system. The 72-hour period shall not terminate as the result of temporary absence or removal of the vessel.

(Code 1985, § 20-61)


Or Clearwater, FL's Code of Ordinances:

Sec. 33.052. - Live-aboard vessels and temporary living accommodation permits.
(1)Prohibited; exceptions. It shall be unlawful for any person to moor or anchor any live-aboard vessel at any location within or upon navigable waters in the city for any period of time in excess of 72 hours, except as followsa)At a marina facility for which conditional use approval has been obtained, or a marina facility in existence as of October 13, 1985, for which conditional use approval would otherwise be required; or(b)At a dock or facility at which temporary living accommodation activities are not specifically authorized pursuant to the terms of a temporary permit issued to the owner or operator of the vessel by the harbormaster.(2)Temporary permits. The harbormaster shall have the authority to issue a temporary living accommodation permit, which permit shall be limited to 15 days, to the owner or operator of a vessel to be moored at a dock or facility at which temporary living accommodation is not specifically authorized, upon payment of a permit fee as set out in Appendix A to this Code. As conditions precedent to the issuance of a temporary permit, the owner, operator, or person in charge of the vessel shall consent to an inspection by the harbormaster of the vessel's marine sanitation and safety equipment; agree that no more persons will reside on the vessel than it was designed to reasonably accommodate and in no instance shall more persons reside thereon than there are permanent accommodating berths; agree not to place, discharge or deposit, or cause or allow to be placed, discharged or deposited any sewage, trash, garbage, petroleum products, hazardous chemicals or substances, or refuse material of any kind or description into the navigable waters while moored or operating within the city during the period covered by the permit; demonstrate that the written permission of the dock or facility owner to moor the vessel thereto during the period covered by the temporary permit has been obtained; and provide evidence of the availability of toilet facilities for the vessel's occupants while moored. Not more than six temporary living accommodation permits may be issued to the owners or operators of the same vessel in any 12-month period, and not more than two such permits may be issued in succession for the same vessel. The permit may be revoked at any time by the harbormaster upon a showing of probable cause that a condition precedent to the issuance of the permit has not been met or has been violated after issuance of the permit and, upon such a showing, no additional permit shall be issued to the permit holder or to any person shown to have committed a violation for a period of one year from the date of the violation. Any permit granted pursuant to this subsection shall be valid only for the place or facility specified upon the permit and shall be conspicuously posted according to the directions of the harbormaster.
(Code 1980, § 114.05; Ord. No. 8146-10, § 8, 2-18-10)



Or Gulfport, FL:

Sec. 6-1. - Definitions. A “live-aboard is defined as any person(s) owning and occupying such a vessel who uses a vessel as a residence and /or is occupying that vessel for four or more days and nights within a seven day period engaging in those usual and customary activities associated with a person’s residences or abode such as but not limited to, sleeping and preparing meals. This definition will also prohibit a place of business, professional location or other commercial enterprise, as evidence vessel used solely as a residence and not in navigation or any vessel for which a declaration of domicile has been filed pursuant to F.S. § 227.17.

Sec. 6-13.2. - Living aboard vessel prohibited; exceptions. (3) Authorized to live on board such vessels by the harbormaster on a temporary basis in the Gulfport Yacht Basin designated transient dock for a period not to exceed fourteen (14) days (three hundred thirty-six (336) hours) within any thirty-day period. Vessel/persons must first register with the harbormaster. All such transient lessees must sign an agreement acknowledging the responsibility for established fees, rules and operational requirements within the municipal marina. Vessels must contain a Coast Guard approved, self-contained, sewage treatment or storage system. (4) Authorized to live-aboard such vessel by the Harbormaster; persons owning or occupying such a vessel who uses a vessel as a residence and/or is occupying that vessel for more than four days and nights within any seven day period in the Gulfport Yacht Basin designated live-aboard berths. Such vessels may not be used as a place of business, professional location or other commercial enterprise, all such uses or related business, commercial or commerce activities are prohibited in designated live-aboard berths. All such live-aboard lessees must sign an agreement acknowledging the responsibility for established fees, rules and operational requirements.


Or Tarpon Springs, FL:

§ 5-20. - MOORING OF HOUSEBOATS.
A houseboat is defined as any boat used as a dwelling. The rules contained in this section shall apply to all boats being used as a temporary or permanent abode. The intent of this section is to prevent unrestricted anchoring or mooring of houseboats within the waters of the city.

(a)Any houseboat as defined herein moored or anchored within the water of the city for any period in excess of 72 hours or intended to be so moored or anchored shall require permission of the harbormaster.(b)The language of this section shall not be so construed as to prohibit any boat from occupying available space within the waterways of the city during a period of time reasonably necessary for the protection of the boat from inclement weather conditions.


Pinellas County, FL:

Sec. 130- 125. Enforcement. Consistent with F.S. § 327.4108(2)(b), a person may not anchor a vessel within any anchoring limitation area for more than forty-five days consecutive days in any six-month period, subject to the exceptions provided in F.S. §§ 327.4108(4), (5). Consistent with F.S. § 327.4108(6), a vessel within an anchoring limitation area must travel at least one mile away from the anchoring limitation area during the preceding forty-five days to comply with this Section. This Section is enforceable by law enforcement officers in accordance with F.S. §§ 327.4108(6), (7), which also provide the remedies for non-compliance with this Section.

All of these locations are within Pinellas county Florida. They all use Pinellas county sheriff's deputies for enforcement of marine related laws.

About 6 months ago I happened to be a Madeira Beach Town Council meeting, also in Pinellas county, also using Pinellas county sheriff's deputi3s for water enforcement.

Two of the deputies were there to present to the mayor and council-persons on why they are unable to enforce Madeira Beach's version of the codes enacted to eradicate long time anchor outs. They all conflict with the State definition of a livesboard and therefore unenforceable.

If I remember correctly, they have seven water deputies. In four years, they had been able to move exactly zero long-term anchor out vessels that were occupied. At least within the Icw - possible but not probably the adjacent waters are not under state or federal jurisdiction.

Every single Pinellas county community with frontage on the ICW has tried to eradicate long term anchor outs. To my knowledge, all have failed due to definition of Liveaboard in state statutes. At least that's what the Pinellas county deputies said. Eventually, the ordinances are ruled in conflict with the state law and become unenforceable.

Peter.
Property owner in both Madeira Baach and St Pete Beach

 

[STB]

Peter,

You are right...but that isn't the end of the story.

If you want to anchor out in an anchorage in public water, it is your battle to fight. And, you are correct, enforcement has been very problematic in that setting in Florida.

If you want to anchor at a marina, which is what I thought we were discussing, it isn't your battle to fight. The code enforcement officer shows up at the marina and tells them to get their slips in compliance or they'll get cited and/or their lease cancelled/non-renewed (if they lease the water rights from the city/county). Then, the marina tells you to take a hike, because they don't want the trouble and have a 2 year waiting list.

The local enforcement officers were enforcing municipal rights of some kind at my marina in Pinellas just a few weeks ago -- acting against the marina owner for vessels that protruded out of their slips into the waterway past the amount allowed. I don't know whether the marina owner leases the rights under the slips from the city, or if they were enforcing a navigable waterway ordinance, or the details.

I know that one boat owner had to collapse his davit and move his dinghy and another boat owner had to move to -- and pay for -- a longer slip.

I also know at least one person who was evicted from a Los Angeles area marina (I'm not sure if it was technically LA or Wilmington, the line divided the marina) after the police threatened to cite the marina for him being an illegal liveaboard. And he had been a tenant (without liveaboard rights) there for many years and fought that eviction, for months, in court. And lost.

He ended up losing the boat, which went to the crusher. I don't remember the whole story, but after getting thrown out of the marina, he apparently repeatedly anchored it in places in the LA Harbor that he wasn't supposed to. It was impounded. Then the storage fees added up and he couldn't pay. Then that was it. Bye bye Choi Lee! Last I heard he lived in an RV on the side of a road in the area, moving occasionally when trouble finds him.

It may be the case that the municipalities I mentioned use the sheriff's office for enforcement. But, not necessarily exclusively: Treasure Island, Clearwater, and St Pete, at the least, all have their own marine patrol. I don't know about others. I haven't had the chance to meet the marine patrol folks anywhere else in Florida. But, it isn't uncommon for counties to deputize city officers and for cities to contract local officers to avoid jurisdictional issues and increase enforcement resources. That doesn't mean local ordinances go unenforced.

I'll write it again: If you are going to occupy or otherwise use something that isn't yours, your are best off making sure it is okay with whoever is responsible for it.

Thinking you have the right to use something that isn't yours however you want, whenever you want for whatever reason you want, is a dangerous mindset, even if it works out for some time, or for all of time, sometimes.

 

[mvweebles]

STB - you are, of course, spot-on about being especially mindful when consuming resources that belong to someone else. It's a good way of putting it because it makes it difficult to rationalize that you are somehow entitled to use. I glossed over that point and I should not have. My inner libertarian has struggled these last few years.

I do have some inside knowledge to add on subject of overhang enforcement, at least in Pinellas County though I would think it the same for all of Florida. The State of Florida 'owns' the submerged land for the ICW, though I have no idea where their administration starts/stops. When a marina is built, it gets a 20-year 'submerged land lease' issued through the Florida Dept of Environmental Protection (FDEP). You cannot overhang the boundaries of this land lease at all. Not an inch.

I know this because it's key datapoint to the back-story of why I decided to restore Weebles rather than sell her and buy something else. Back in 2011 when Florida real estate was still in the dump, I bought a slip that happened to come with a condo. It was a 25-foot slip but in my zeal, I figured I could shoe-horn Weebles' 36-foot in. Who'd notice a 9-foot overhang??? Well, turns out the guy who owned the slip next to mine agreed to sell me his slip. Turns out a 36-foot boat at a 45-degree angle fits within the 'envelope' of two 25-foot slips....barely. Getting formal permission to do so was a 2-year process that required the entire 7-slip 'marina' to have a new survey for FDEP approval (also the Army Corps of Engineers is involved). My understanding is the submerged land must be re-surveyed periodically so I would not be surprised if the marina you cite had boats that encroached outside the land lease. Whether it was the state or the city, the leaseholder has a right to enforce the boundaries as agreed.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Superseding laws with lower government or private (like marinas) restrictions are done all the time....that is because they are more, not less strict.... as long as it does not meet the standard of discrimination, and maybe a few other things, they are perfectly legal.

A good example are the "clean marina" rules that supersede the EPA's regs on sanitation devices.

Wining a particular case isn't that unusual, unless that leads to a law, then each and every time the "complaint" has to go to court as far as I know.

 

[STB]

STB - you are, of course, spot-on about being especially mindful when consuming resources that belong to someone else. It's a good way of putting it because it makes it difficult to rationalize that you are somehow entitled to use. I glossed over that point and I should not have. My inner libertarian has struggled these last few years.

I do have some inside knowledge to add on subject of overhang enforcement, at least in Pinellas County though I would think it the same for all of Florida. The State of Florida 'owns' the submerged land for the ICW, though I have no idea where their administration starts/stops. When a marina is built, it gets a 20-year 'submerged land lease' issued through the Florida Dept of Environmental Protection (FDEP). You cannot overhang the boundaries of this land lease at all. Not an inch.

I know this because it's key datapoint to the back-story of why I decided to restore Weebles rather than sell her and buy something else. Back in 2011 when Florida real estate was still in the dump, I bought a slip that happened to come with a condo. It was a 25-foot slip but in my zeal, I figured I could shoe-horn Weebles' 36-foot in. Who'd notice a 9-foot overhang??? Well, turns out the guy who owned the slip next to mine agreed to sell me his slip. Turns out a 36-foot boat at a 45-degree angle fits within the 'envelope' of two 25-foot slips....barely. Getting formal permission to do so was a 2-year process that required the entire 7-slip 'marina' to have a new survey for FDEP approval (also the Army Corps of Engineers is involved). My understanding is the submerged land must be re-surveyed periodically so I would not be surprised if the marina you cite had boats that encroached outside the land lease. Whether it was the state or the city, the leaseholder has a right to enforce the boundaries as agreed.

Peter

Hey Peter,

Thanks for the information about the leases. That seems to fit the observations! It was the city doing the enforcement. But, I don't know the mechanism. They may have been threatening a FDEP complaint if it wasn't resolved.

My inner libertarian voice tells me to respect the property rights of others as often as it does to resist interference with my freedoms.

 

[Don L]

There are a few regular Florida communities that are known to try to chase away anchored boats that don't know that they can not.

Of course the main people responsible for this are the boaters themselves.

In the last 7 years I have anchored in lots of places in Florida and have never had anyone come and tell me to move. But there has been lots of ragtag boats around me in the anchorage that I wish would have gone away

 

[mvweebles]

There are a few regular Florida communities that are known to try to chase away anchored boats that don't know that they can not.

Of course the main people responsible for this are the boaters themselves.

In the last 7 years I have anchored in lots of places in Florida and have never had anyone come and tell me to move. But there has been lots of ragtag boats around me in the anchorage that I wish would have gone away

From what I have seen in my neck of the woods, it's nearby property owners who want the anchor out and derelict boats removed, not the marinas. Property owners go to their town mayor and counsel persons and insist something be done because of some BS charge of health issues due to overboard discharge. We all know the real issue is the owners just don't want old boats in their line of sight.

About 5 ago the owners of a condo complex across the ICW from Madeira Beach asked the town to pass an ordinance against anchoring. The town passes a rule that they must get a pumpout every 2 and save the receipt, could only anchor for x number of days, etc. The rule was eventually ruled unenforceable but the ironic part was that when Pinellas County Sheriff Deputies enforced the rule and rousted anchor outs, they only did so in Madeira Beach waters - the condo complex was on the St Petersburg side of the ICW. So the condo complex actually ended up with a lot more anchor outs in front of their complex because the ones on the Madeira Beach side simply moved 300 yards to the St Petersburg side.

Peter

 

[STB]

I've seen marinas push back on long term anchoring nearby. They get tired of derelict boats breaking loose and crashing into the marina during storms, them sneaking into slips or frequently using restaurant courtesy slips to get water or pump out, and them kayaking in and using restrooms and the parking lot to load supplies. Marinas with moorings don't like the free anchorage competing with paid balls.

During almost every recent major storm, damage has been done to the Clearwater Municipal Harbor Marina by uninsured anchored sailboats washing in. They've destroyed wave attenuators, hit boats, blocked boats, and needed the city to pay to have them removed.

 

[MarinaMike]

Liveaboard Rights

The marina is the only entity that can determine your "rights" to liveaboard a boat in their marina. As accurately stated by others, there are certain requirements that a City or the FDEP can regulate for certain marinas to obtain proper licensing. One of these regulations is "no liveaboards". I own one marina on the ICW that is over 125 years old and has a great liveaboard community because we are grandfathered in and the City is aware and accommodating. The marina neighbor of mine has a "no liveaboard" statute from the City. My other marina has a no liveaboard regulation from the FDEP as part of my submerged land lease agreement with the State of Florida.

What most boaters do not realize is that the majority of coastal marinas are protected by maritime law, not civil law. This is why there are no "home owner" protections.

Also, for informational purposes; when you arrive and receive services from a marina (dockage, fuel, service etc), a lien is automatically placed on your vessel and can easily be perfected if payment is not made. Be respectful of the marina and other boaters and 99% of your problems will go away.

 

[DBG8492]

Be respectful of the marina and other boaters and 99% of your problems will go away.

This.

All of this.

And if you make yourself useful, your presence, while tolerated at first, will eventually be celebrated.

 

[rwidman]

Asking for legal advice on a boating forum will get you nowhere. And you are not going to get a response that you can print out and hand to a marina owner that will change his/her position.

Some marinas cannot accept liveaboards because of local laws or ordinances. Some cannot accept liveaboards because their operating permit does not allow it. And of course, a marina can choose to not allow liveaboards for whatever reason it wants, just like they can impose other rules and conditions.

A marina can evict you for failing to follow rules or even for being "difficult".

I get the impression that at least some of your difficulties are of your own doing. You might need to adjust your expectations and lifestyle to :fit in" with the marina, staff and other slipholders.

If you really want to know what "rights" liveaboard boaters have in Florida, you really nee to consult with an attorney.