What will the Marina War mean to you?

[bowball]

Sun doesn’t seem like a REIT investment that I’d be interested in. Low yield. Longer term leases at below market rates. Is this just a real estate play or waiting for higher lease rates in the future? What’s the play?

 

[ranger58sb]

I just don't grasp turning one's business over to someone else to manage.

The one were most familiar with is the Annapolis harbor, which Oasis began managing a few years ago (assuming I'm remembering correctly). I think this would have been just after the major dock renovations.

Not sure why the city would have done that, but I might guess they decided managing boater services just isn't their core capability. That's just a WAG, though...

-Chris

 

[BandB]

The one were most familiar with is the Annapolis harbor, which Oasis began managing a few years ago (assuming I'm remembering correctly). I think this would have been just after the major dock renovations.

Not sure why the city would have done that, but I might guess they decided managing boater services just isn't their core capability. That's just a WAG, though...

-Chris

Most cities have found having third party managers makes sense. I understand cities turning it over to others, just not private owners. Even Fort Lauderdale has turned Las Olas Marina over to Suntex and Miami Beach has done the same with their marina.

 

[rslifkin]

Most cities have found having third party managers makes sense. I understand cities turning it over to others, just not private owners. Even Fort Lauderdale has turned Las Olas Marina over to Suntex and Miami Beach has done the same with their marina.

For private owners I think it only makes sense if your business is X, but one of the X you bought comes with a Y attached. So you decide that for that one-off, it makes more sense to let someone else operate Y rather than getting into another business or trying to separate the 2.

 

[TJM]

Haha, Dont always assume reciprocal rights. We are in SH Essex Ct and sure we have those rights but the best nearby locations are blocked out. Customer service is gone. If they can put a price tag on it, one will be placed. Items on work orders include papertowels, razor blades, alcohol for wiping down, shop rags, zip ties.....

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Customer service is gone. If they can put a price tag on it, one will be placed. Items on work orders include papertowels, razor blades, alcohol for wiping down, shop rags, zip ties.....

I don't put up with that crap. I demand such things be removed from the invoice. I just don't pay for it.

 

[amapola]

Since we anchor out 99% of the time, It has little effect on us.

 

[Vashon_Trawler]

All this talk about the cost of marina fees escalating due to supply/demand reminds me of about a year ago some on this forum were talking about the death of our hobby because the younger generations were not getting into boating.


I guess those folks are not speaking because they are all eating crow.
HOLLYWOOD

Prior to the pandemic, there were plenty of data supporting the notion that younger people were not entering the boating world--the demographics were quite clear. If you mean "our hobby" as owning a slow-moving, economical cruiser (trawler), then yes, it is dying. Like everything, we are in a cycle and the bubble will burst soon or later.

 

[ssobol]

As mentioned lots of industries are consolidating into to one (or a few) big players. This is not always a benefit to the end customer. If most marinas consolidate under two or three companies, then yes, individual marinas may have access to capital for improvements and the like. However, if the corporate overlords decide that they don't want to invest in improvements in said marina, there's not a lot that anyone can do about it.

If the corporate owners all sort of agree that marinas are fine the way they are, there will be no competitive incentive for funding improvements and the customer will have no choice but to put up with it because there are no other options.

It could end up in a situation like Ticketmaster. They bought up or forged agreements with most box offices and are pretty much a monopoly. Yes, this helps the ticket sellers with distribution, but Ticketmaster sells the tickets with a lot of fees added. You probably have to buy through their system even if you walk up to the box office window. Once they got a certain market mass, every other box office had to join up to remain competitive. The end result is a system that most customers actively dislike but have no choice and must use it.

 

[jimfrens]

I’ve stayed at several Safe Harbors facilities in the past year and they were excellent with fair transient slip rates. On my last trip in November, I was glad they were still open. I suspect if they were still Independent, they would have been closed for the season.

And as far as mom&pop motels, I stayed in one last weekend that had no business being in business, it was that pitiful. Not that chain affiliation guarantees quality (been in some pretty rough Motel6 and Super8 places) but the odds are certainly better.

 

[Miz Trom]

We have different groups here on TF who use marinas for different functions. Some us have utilized each of these marina functions at different stages of our lives:

A) Liveaboards (Old Dan is an example)
B) Transient Cruisers (Wayfarer Dave is an example)
C) Home Port (own a dirt home, keep their boat in a marina - Cardude is example)

A few of us keep their boats docked behind their waterfront dirt home (Bandb, Comodave, RGano, Menzies are examples).

Then there are a few of us, like OC Diver, who own their slips. And some who anchor out much more often than they purchase transient dockage.

What we all have in common is that we all need at least one of these typical marina services:
1) Fuel, Oil
2) Boat Systems services
3) Electronics services
4) Pumpout services, garbage bins, laundry facilities
5) Winter storage services
6) Haul-out services
7) Hull cleaning services

In my experience, most marinas do not provide all of these functions and services, but the best ones provide the basics and can recommend other local businesses to provide the rest.

This ability, to recommend who is a dependable, fair purveyor of other marine services only comes from years of experience.

The main problem, as I see it, with the escalating corporate takeovers of marinas is the loss of this experience, as marina owner/operators get bought out.

Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[Captain DJ]

Marina Del Rey (in Los Angeles) just raised their slip fees 25% for small boats, 90% for big boats. Do not see a mass exodus to other marinas.

Could be because folks that live out there are CRAZY.:lol:
In some way, SoCal is the Land of Fruits and Nuts.
The exodus will come if they continue to raise rates at that pace for many years.

Eventually, folks gotta come to their senses.

 

[bnoft]

To answer the question about Bluewater, they were bought by Safe Harbor. The facility in Hampton, service yard and brokerage were part of the package. I believe that includes all of the brokerage on the East Coast. To my knowledge, this has not been publicly announced; we were a slip holder in Hampton and when I called to cancel our slip, I was informed of the sale and offered an extension of our slip rental. We had already decided to move the boat to a house off the Potomac.

 

[BandB]

A) Liveaboards (Old Dan is an example)
B) Transient Cruisers (Wayfarer Dave is an example)
C) Home Port (own a dirt home, keep their boat in a marina - Cardude is example)

A few of us keep their boats docked behind their waterfront dirt home (Bandb, Comodave, RGano, Menzies are examples).

Then there are a few of us, like OC Diver, who own their slips.

What we all have in common is that we all need at least one of these typical marina services:
1) Fuel, Oil
2) Boat Systems services
3) Electronics services
4) Pumpout services, garbage bins, laundry facilities
5) Winter storage services
6) Haul-out services
7) Hull cleaning services

Actually, while we have docks behind our home, we don't regularly keep our boats there, but do own slips. Then we fall into the Transient Cruiser group with Wayfarer much of the time.

Interesting to see your list of services.
1)We get fuel delivered by truck when home and oil is purchased and kept in large quantity, but then we regularly need fuel elsewhere.
2)3)6)We don't get any of these at a regular marina but all at a boatyard we take the boat to just for them.
4)Pumpout and garbage bins at home dock and marinas. We don't use laundry facilities.
5)Don't believe in winter so N/A.
7)We get at our home dock.

I think many of us are varied in that we may have a home dock, may sometimes liveaboard, may be big transient boaters, may use a boatyard, and may use the services in many different places.

As to losing experience, I'm not so sure. Yes, a few acquisitions removed significant experience, but I think long term the marinas will be managed by those with extensive experience. There's a chance they become better managed and better run businesses. It's all a case by case situation.

I recall one marina that was very well run and then the 70 year old owner said enough and sold it. Two 20 something brothers with an inheritance bought it. No marina operating experience, just as users. The decline started slowly but the rate of decline rapidly intensified. 3 years later they declared bankruptcy on the marina operation and it was purchased by an owner of several other marinas at 1/3 of previous sale price. Took five years to get it back to where it had been previously.

The point is that many experienced marina operators want out and are going to leave regardless. They often have sold in the past to those who lacked experience.

Here's what really scares me. 2008/09 will return. I don't know when. I don't know how Safe Harbor or Suntex will handle it. Will they shut down marinas, bankrupt the company or individual marinas? Will they have the funds to persevere? In 2013, Marinas International (Predecessor of Safe Harbor) was involved in bankruptcy for 11 marinas. Their situation was a separate entity owned them and they leased them. I don't know if Safe Harbor has similar. I do know rents and other monies were often not paid. Oh, and in addition to blaming the 2008 recession, they blamed the Army Corps of Engineers for lowering water levels after Katrina.

Here were the marinas involved:

• Pier 121, Lewisville, Texas
• Lakefront, Port Clinton, Ohio
• Burnside, Somerset, Ky.
• Beaver Creek, Monticello, Ky.
• Sandusky, Sandusky, Ohio
• Manasquan, Ocean County, N.J.
• Crystal Point, Ocean County N.J.
• Great Lakes Marina, Muskegon, Mich.
• Holly Creek; Celina, Tenn.
• Eagle Cove; Byrdstown, Tenn.
• Brady Mountain, Royal, Ark.

Note they were all inland then. Now they and Suntex are focused on coastal.

Still I'm not going to panic over 2 operators who still own or operate less than 3% of all marinas in the country.

 

[O C Diver]

What we all have in common is that we all need at least one of these typical marina services:
1) Fuel, Oil
2) Boat Systems services
3) Electronics services
4) Pumpout services, garbage bins, laundry facilities
5) Winter storage services
6) Haul-out services
7) Hull cleaning services

In keeping with BandB 's theme:

1) With a 2,000+ mile range, fuel is mostly bought at a few facilities, most of which I don't overnight at. Don't see that ever being an issue. Oil is usually from Walmart. With the recent supply shortages, I already have enough for this year's changes, and filters.

2) I do most of my own boat service including 3). 6) When I haul out, it’s at a commercial watermans boatyard that I've used for decades. It's not the end of the earth, but you can see it from the boatyard.

4) Most municipal moorings have those services for free with the exception of laundry which gets done on the boat.

5) My idea of winterizing a boat is to take it to Florida to cruise.

7) Hull cleaning is done in the slip that I own in Florida. Recently my summer cruising has been freshwater, so no need. In a pinch, I still have my scuba tank and long hose if a scrubbing is necessary.

If safe harbor and the other big players evaporated, it probably won't have any noticeable impact on what I will be doing. As the price of boat fuel continues to rise, it will be interesting to see what if any impact that will have on boating in general.

Ted

 

[Woodstock]

Our marina, South Harbour Village in Southport, NC, was purchased by Safe Harbor in late 2019. I'm a slip owner there where only about 20% of the slips are privately owned. We slip owners automatically became Safe Harbor Black Card members that came with some nice perks including free (limited) dockage at other SH marinas. The marina saw steady improvements and major reconstruction (after Hurricane Isaias) under their watch. But sometime in 2021 Safe Harbor decided that Black Card holders that own their own slip (but pay monthly SOA fees) would not be members. No more perks for us.

 

[JLD]

This has been an interesting thread to read.

I don't know much about the marina business, but do know that for many Mom & Pop businesses the value of the business is in the value of the property they own. I could (and would) expect a 70 year old owner of a marina to sell his property as there comes a point in life that many folks may want to retire.

Jim

 

[BandB]

This has been an interesting thread to read.

I don't know much about the marina business, but do know that for many Mom & Pop businesses the value of the business is in the value of the property they own. I could (and would) expect a 70 year old owner of a marina to sell his property as there comes a point in life that many folks may want to retire.

Jim

It's not just marinas, but all small businesses where owners find getting out is difficult. They've convinced that not only are they making money each year but the value of their business is rising. Then, when they're ready to exit, they find that value is all vapor. It takes a willing buyer. It's like some of the people who go on Shark Tank with ridiculous valuations.

Right now I'm seeing businesses for sale at 2 to 3 x profits. When we were buying, 3 x profits was our maximum but there were always those wanting 5 to 10 x profits or 3 x sales. Many were so shocked when no one would pay it.

I looked at some marinas for sale. 14 slips at one for $9.7 million with a 4.37% CAP. No sane person would pay that.

Grafton Harbour Marina is for sale for $7 million. Annual revenues are only $1.282. Over 6 x revenue. Obvious why no one has jumped on it. I just glanced quickly and found 98 marinas for sale but most that do sell were not on the market. To me, it's likely worth less than $2 million.

I saw one property in Fort Lauderdale asking $32 million. Next it was $15 million. Bank repossessed for $12 million. They sold it for $7 million. Last I saw was $4 million. I love boats. Once looked closely at marinas. Decided strongly against them.

I look forward to seeing some new financials from Safe Harbor and Suntex. They've been on such buying sprees and so little operation history, that it's impossible to really get a good picture based on prior statements.

 

[ranger58sb]

If they can put a price tag on it, one will be placed. Items on work orders include papertowels, razor blades, alcohol for wiping down, shop rags, zip ties.....

I don't put up with that crap. I demand such things be removed from the invoice. I just don't pay for it.

Pretty normal around here. Our previous marina, our current marina, all the work we had done in Florida when we took possession of this boat, etc. Similar to most auto service shops, too.

Our previous marina/boatyard was a Mom & Pop and the family aged out about 5 years ago. Service didn't really change much, but I expect the new owners are aiming for a re-sale to somebody like SG or Suntex.

Our current marina/boatyard (established 1865) was a family thing until this last Summer... when they sold out to another nearby family ownership group. Latter has a few other marinas, and they're good at it... so I expect good service to at least stay good, maybe even get a bit better if there's a way to do that. (We haven't been there long enough to assess what "better" could possibly mean.)

-Chris

 

[catalinajack]

Pretty normal around here. Our previous marina, our current marina, all the work we had done in Florida when we took possession of this boat, etc. Similar to most auto service shops, too.

Our previous marina/boatyard was a Mom & Pop and the family aged out about 5 years ago. Service didn't really change much, but I expect the new owners are aiming for a re-sale to somebody like SG or Suntex.

Our current marina/boatyard (established 1865) was a family thing until this last Summer... when they sold out to another nearby family ownership group. Latter has a few other marinas, and they're good at it... so I expect good service to at least stay good, maybe even get a bit better if there's a way to do that. (We haven't been there long enough to assess what "better" could possibly mean.)

-Chris

Chris, you are at Hartge's now? We moved to Piney Narrows Yacht Haven last spring after five years at Hartge's. I like the improvements the Chaneys have done since taking ownership.

 

[CharlieO.]

Currently at a Suntex Marina (Liberty Landing), only there because we assumed the contract with the boat. My impressions are it is very expensive, I know location, location, location. The upkeep of the grounds progressively get worse the farther you get from the Marina office and Fuel Dock, want it to look good for the transients probably.

It is in the rules that no boat work is allowed on weekends, sucks for us DIY working folks. Only they are allowed to do bottom paint, shrinkwrap. I think you would be hard pressed to get permission for an outside contractor to come in for other works.

Someone mentioned the consolidation of ski areas, here in Vermont it is horrible. It seems they are trying to figure out how to charge you for everything and anything.
I skipped my season pass this year and will find an Indy mountain pass next year.

If I ever shop for long term moorage I'd try to find a independent company to dock with.

 

[BandB]

Well, a private conversation made me curious. How many marinas we've used are now Safe Harbor or Suntex. We define use as ever tied there, even if just for lunch and sure the number is growing each day:

Safe Harbor
Angler House-Islamorada, FL
Annapolis, Annapolis, MD
Aqua Yacht, Iuka, MS
Beaufort, Beaufort, NC
Capri, Port Washington, NY
Charleston, Charleston, SC
Cove Haven, Barrington, RI
Cowesett, Warwick RI
Essex Island, Essex, NY
Glen Cove, Glen Cove, NY
Grand Isle, Grand Haven, MI
Great Lakes, Muskegon, MI
Harborage, St. Petersburg, FL
Harborage Yacht Club, Stuart, FL
Harbortown, Ft. Pierce, FL
Jarrett Bay, Beaufort, NC
Kings Point, Cornelius, NC
Marathon, Marathon, FL
Marina Bay, Quincy, MA
Narrows Point, Grasonville, MD
New England Boatworks, Portsmouth, RI
New Port Cove, Riviera Beach, FL
Newport Shipyard, Newport, RI
North Palm Beach, North Palm Beach, FL
Old Port Cove, North Palm Beach, FL
Peninsula Yacht Club, Cornelius, NC
Plymouth, Plymouth, MA
Rybovich, West Palm Beach, FL
Sandusky, Sandusky, OH
Skippers Landing, Troutman, NC
Skull Creek, Hilton Head, SC
South Harbor Village, Southport, NC
Westport, Denver, NC
Yacht Haven, Stamford, CT

Suntex
Bahia Mar, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Bayshore, Coconut Grove, FL
Faro Blanco, Marathon, FL
Garrison Bight, Key West, FL
Kentucky Dam, Gilbertsville, TN
Las Olas, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Liberty Landing, Jersey City, NJ
Marina Jack, Sarasota, FL
Miami Beach, Miami Beach, FL
Ocean Yacht, Portsmouth, VA
Snook Bight, Fort Myers Beach, FL
Tidewater, Portsmouth, VA

Westrec, acquired by Suntex
Hall of Fame, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Dania Beach, Dania Beach, FL
Crandon Park Marina, Key Biscayne, FL
Burnham Harbor, Chicago, IL

Wow....I must admit in doing that list, a bit shocked. So definitely impacted, just no idea in what way.

I suspect some of you will be far more so depending on location.

For instance, just in South Florida, three counties. Here's my tabulation.
Miami Dade-3 Suntex, 2 Westrec
Broward-3 Suntex, 5 Westrec, 3 Safe Harbor
Palm Beach-4 Safe Harbor

So, 20 within 50 miles of us.

 

[LovetoBoat]

• Manasquan, Ocean County, N.J.
• Crystal Point, Ocean County N.J.
Note they were all inland then. Now they and Suntex are focused on coastal.
Still I'm not going to panic over 2 operators who still own or operate less than 3% of all marinas in the country.

I could be reading this incorrectly but Manasquan and Crystal Point are not what I consider inland. They are about 5 miles from the inlet if that is what you mean. I have my boat at Crystal Point - pre-COVID they were about 65% full - now you can not get a slip. Those that were late with deposits lost their slip and others jumped in.


My hope is the next 2007 or 2008 will be long after I am gone. If not - I can only protect my assets and not worry about it. If I think about it too much I lose sleep - I like my sleep...

 

[Lollygag1]

Many industries which were independently owned are getting consolidated. Typically the owners are looking to get out and the kids are not interested in continuing the business and the cost to purchase for another independent is cost prohibitive. I have seen this in agriculture, grocery, landscaping and even porta-potties. I feel marinas are falling into the same category and this will only continue as more independent operators look to exit due to age, increasing regulations, maintenance costs etc. Its just a wave we need to ride.

 

[BandB]

I could be reading this incorrectly but Manasquan and Crystal Point are not what I consider inland.

No, but the others were.

 

[BandB]

Many industries which were independently owned are getting consolidated. Typically the owners are looking to get out and the kids are not interested in continuing the business and the cost to purchase for another independent is cost prohibitive. I have seen this in agriculture, grocery, landscaping and even porta-potties. I feel marinas are falling into the same category and this will only continue as more independent operators look to exit due to age, increasing regulations, maintenance costs etc. Its just a wave we need to ride.

It happens. Not the first time, not the only industry, not the only cycle or consolidation. It leads to tightening and loosening of anti-trust enforcement, which this doesn't even come close to triggering. It sometimes is ok and other times it is a consumer nightmare. When it ends up going too far, sometimes it implodes on it's own and other times requires government intervention.

 

[backinblue]

Well, a private conversation made me curious. How many marinas we've used are now Safe Harbor or Suntex. We define use as ever tied there, even if just for lunch and sure the number is growing each day:

Safe Harbor
Angler House-Islamorada, FL
Annapolis, Annapolis, MD
Aqua Yacht, Iuka, MS
Beaufort, Beaufort, NC
Capri, Port Washington, NY
Charleston, Charleston, SC
Cove Haven, Barrington, RI
Cowesett, Warwick RI
Essex Island, Essex, NY
Glen Cove, Glen Cove, NY
Grand Isle, Grand Haven, MI
Great Lakes, Muskegon, MI
Harborage, St. Petersburg, FL
Harborage Yacht Club, Stuart, FL
Harbortown, Ft. Pierce, FL
Jarrett Bay, Beaufort, NC
Kings Point, Cornelius, NC
Marathon, Marathon, FL
Marina Bay, Quincy, MA
Narrows Point, Grasonville, MD
New England Boatworks, Portsmouth, RI
New Port Cove, Riviera Beach, FL
Newport Shipyard, Newport, RI
North Palm Beach, North Palm Beach, FL
Old Port Cove, North Palm Beach, FL
Peninsula Yacht Club, Cornelius, NC
Plymouth, Plymouth, MA
Rybovich, West Palm Beach, FL
Sandusky, Sandusky, OH
Skippers Landing, Troutman, NC
Skull Creek, Hilton Head, SC
South Harbor Village, Southport, NC
Westport, Denver, NC
Yacht Haven, Stamford, CT

Suntex
Bahia Mar, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Bayshore, Coconut Grove, FL
Faro Blanco, Marathon, FL
Garrison Bight, Key West, FL
Kentucky Dam, Gilbertsville, TN
Las Olas, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Liberty Landing, Jersey City, NJ
Marina Jack, Sarasota, FL
Miami Beach, Miami Beach, FL
Ocean Yacht, Portsmouth, VA
Snook Bight, Fort Myers Beach, FL
Tidewater, Portsmouth, VA

Westrec, acquired by Suntex
Hall of Fame, Fort Lauderdale, FL
Dania Beach, Dania Beach, FL
Crandon Park Marina, Key Biscayne, FL
Burnham Harbor, Chicago, IL

Wow....I must admit in doing that list, a bit shocked. So definitely impacted, just no idea in what way.

I suspect some of you will be far more so depending on location.

For instance, just in South Florida, three counties. Here's my tabulation.
Miami Dade-3 Suntex, 2 Westrec
Broward-3 Suntex, 5 Westrec, 3 Safe Harbor
Palm Beach-4 Safe Harbor

So, 20 within 50 miles of us.

This is not a complete list. Are you saying these are ones you've personally stayed at?

 

[Benthic2]

How hard is it for a marina to add slips ?? Floating docks are a relatively small investment if you can rent another slip or two for every dock you build I would think marinas could self regulate supply by adding or subtracting more dock space.

 

[bowball]

How hard is it for a marina to add slips ?? Floating docks are a relatively small investment if you can rent another slip or two for every dock you build I would think marinas could self regulate supply by adding or subtracting more dock space.

Where I am it’s what the city has permitted that’s the weak link.

 

[BandB]

This is not a complete list. Are you saying these are ones you've personally stayed at?

The ones we've personally used. Not even close to all.