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Old 10-06-2016, 07:05 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by utazo89 View Post
I agree with you, although, some members here suggested that the 10% proves your seriousness towards the seller. If you don't put the check down, the seller might not be interested dealing with you.

....................

True, and occasionally I'll put money down, but always with my representative. Sometimes it's really what you want and you don't want to loose this one, so you do what you have to. If the deposit is non-refundable, then I'll just write the check, and I've done a few of those, and be prepared to loose it, but has to be a killer deal.... never lost a deposit, yet.
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Old 10-07-2016, 09:19 AM   #22
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Another real pet peeve of mine is how brokers won't let you do a trial run without a deposit. No frickin way. Don't mind paying for expenses and a captain, but not going to put 10% into his account, regardless of what they say.... and never had an issue with that.
Brokers are usually not the ones dictating this policy. Boat "rides" can be very expensive for the seller. Most sellers don't want to spend the money or time on a prospect who isn't interested enough to hand over the 100% refundable deposit. A buyer needs to show that he has at least some of the means and interest to purchase a boat before he should resonably expect others to start spending considerable time and money on him. The deposit is also there to cover cost incurred by the buyer if he does as you say, offer to pay expenses for a ride etc. but than doesn't pay the bills. The cost of the bills agreed to be covered by the prospect is paid out of the deposit before the remainder is returned to the buyer. Without this system the seller would be on the hook.
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Old 10-07-2016, 09:21 AM   #23
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True, and occasionally I'll put money down, but always with my representative. Sometimes it's really what you want and you don't want to loose this one, so you do what you have to. If the deposit is non-refundable, then I'll just write the check, and I've done a few of those, and be prepared to loose it, but has to be a killer deal.... never lost a deposit, yet.
Do not ever agree to a nonrefundable deposit pre-acceptance of the vessel.
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Old 10-07-2016, 09:29 AM   #24
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That means that the fiduciary duty is owed to the SELLER (because fiduciary duty is a legal issue, not a semantic one).
In the above sentence, I should have said that the fiduciary duty MAY BE owed to the seller. This is where local law comes into it, as well as the specifics of any contract that you have signed with your buyer's broker.

Of course, it is specifically because of the fact that this can go either way that it is worthwhile to clearly understand the legal relationship you have with your buyer's broker.
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Old 10-07-2016, 09:36 AM   #25
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A buyer needs to show that he has at least some of the means and interest to purchase a boat before he should resonably expect others to start spending considerable time and money on him.
Agreed. As a seller, I would not agree to a ride until I was sure that the buyer was serious. How can I tell if a buyer is really serious? Well, him putting up a deposit is a pretty good sign.

Now, if I happen to spend enough time with him to be convinced that he is serious, or by some other means am convinced of that, then maybe--just MAYBE--I would give him a ride without a purchase offer and deposit in hand. But that would be the exception, not the rule.

Of course, the other caveat here is that offer-deposit-sea trial is the usual way of things here in Florida. I know that in other places things are done differently. I have heard that it is usual for the sea trial to come before the deposit in some parts of the world. Fine. If that's usual where you are selling your boat, then that's how you probably have to do things. Here, though, deposit first, and only then do you get a sea trial.
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Old 10-07-2016, 10:45 AM   #26
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The only value I see with a buyer's broker is consistency throughout the buying process. A relationship is built and the buyer's broker can show you a lot of different listing from different brokers and you still have the same experience during them all. I do not believe, however, that without some sort of fiduciary agreement and/or flat fee payment upfront, can a buyer's broker remain completely neutral. One thing I notice is how protective brokers are to protecting a "first call" dominance. We called one listing broker first and during that call realized that we really didn't want to deal with him directly and "engaged" another broker to act on our behalf. Understandably, this didn't sit well with the listing broker. But other than just flat-out greed, I don't see how calling him first did anymore than take a few minutes of his time that could, even if the payday isn't quite as lucrative, have led to a sale.

During our last shopping experience, we did a combination of both. We called some listing brokers and some "buyer's brokers" (although without an agreement, it's hard to define them as such). In the end, we did a FSBO (too complicate to describe here), but used a broker (in fact, the thread starter) to close the deal's paperwork and were very happy at the end of the deal.

All-in-all, the yacht brokerage business seems very cutthroat and there is some extreme competition out there from, I assume, there just being so many of them out there now. This has led to some really unscrupulous tactics in both buying and selling. It's a pity too. You really have to search to find the good ones, and sometimes, the good ones don't turn out to be that good after all.
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Old 10-07-2016, 11:01 AM   #27
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True the buyer's broker has an incentive to maximize his commission, but the alternative is to deal only with the selling broker who absolutely works for the seller. At least on the surface, the BB is working for the buyer.

I have used a buyers broker before and it was a great experience. The biggest advantage is that you are able to select the buyers broker, you can't select the listing broker. It gives you one knowledgeable person in the process that you trust. I have also purchased without a buyers broker and it was a great experience, but in this case I knew of the reputation of the listing broker and was confident with them.

I am not sure however that the buyers broker actually works for the buyer. I know in real estate, both the buyers and the sellers broker are actually working on behalf of the seller, and in some states this has to be disclosed, in writing, to the buyers. However, by selecting your buyers broker carefully, you will trust them to represent your interests despite the fact that they technically will be working for the ultimate seller.

There is a conflict of interest with the buyers broker, but that is where integrity comes in and is really no different than any other trade or profession. If you hire a mechanic to work on your engine, it may be in their short term financial interest to recommend additional service that you really don't need. If you come into my office for an eye exam it is in my financial interest to suggest additional testing that you may not really need. Even so folks still use mechanics and patients still come to me to seek my professional advice and service. They trust that I will put their own best interests ahead of my own financial interests. When I used a buyers broker I was confident that she was working for my own interests.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:49 PM   #28
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Let's say we have a buyer's broker and his house and a listing broker and his house. In a sale the melon will be split four ways. Sometimes the slices are so small that no one has any motivation to give up a little piece of their melon to make a deal work. There is far more incentive to deal on the price if you go directly to the listing broker...IMHO
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Old 10-07-2016, 01:11 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Daddyo View Post
Brokers are usually not the ones dictating this policy. Boat "rides" can be very expensive for the seller. Most sellers don't want to spend the money or time on a prospect who isn't interested enough to hand over the 100% refundable deposit. A buyer needs to show that he has at least some of the means and interest to purchase a boat before he should resonably expect others to start spending considerable time and money on him. The deposit is also there to cover cost incurred by the buyer if he does as you say, offer to pay expenses for a ride etc. but than doesn't pay the bills. The cost of the bills agreed to be covered by the prospect is paid out of the deposit before the remainder is returned to the buyer. Without this system the seller would be on the hook.
Daddyo,

Boat rides are cheap in the whole scheme of things. If I were selling, everyone gets one who asks, unless they just piss me off. And if they don't buy, I still like showing my boat off. That's cheap. You can do a pretty reasonable assessment of the boat in about 30 minutes on the water, and 30 min in the dock.

An offer and refundable deposit makes no sense, prior to a ride. And it's to the sellers advantage to just let the buyer pay those expenses. I have not heard of a deposit where the expenses would be taken out if the buyer didn't buy and I wouldn't do that anyway.... I'd just pay for the expenses agree upon prior to the ride. Of the last 5 boats I've bought, I've offered to pay expenses and the seller said no, he'd cover them. 3 of them I bought, and the ones I didn't I went back to the seller and still offered to pay. How fair is that?

As for means, I'd have no issue proving that I had the funds to buy, and why the heck would someone spend a lot of time without some interest? I'd bet there's an interest to buy 99% of the time. I don't believe in tire kickers, with rare exceptions. I think people have way better things to do than shop for boats they absolutely won't buy.

Also, I expect the seller to tell me what his interest is, if he's firm on price or wants out fast, and that there are not major issues. I've rarely had an issue doing business this way.
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Old 10-07-2016, 01:15 PM   #30
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Let's say we have a buyer's broker and his house and a listing broker and his house. In a sale the melon will be split four ways. Sometimes the slices are so small that no one has any motivation to give up a little piece of their melon to make a deal work. There is far more incentive to deal on the price if you go directly to the listing broker...IMHO
Seasalt,

Maybe, depending on how agreements were written, but if the buyer's broker just took the position of a sales person the split would be the same.

However, it's often to any broker's advantage to have hundreds of other brokers out there bringing buyers that doing it himself. Also, 25% is better than nothing.
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Old 10-07-2016, 01:43 PM   #31
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Daddyo,
Also, I expect the seller to tell me what his interest is, if he's firm on price or wants out fast, and that there are not major issues. I've rarely had an issue doing business this way.
Well put.
At my last offer, I was very close to just call the seller directly, since my buyer broker could not get any decent communication from the listing broker.
So a question comes to my mind. Can the seller be contacted directly, if the listing broker is doing a lousy job? Either by me, or by my buyer broker?
I don't know the rules, so I am curious.
I am sure the listing broker would be furious, but if we could cut to the chase and make the seller aware of the difficulties and talking to him directly, maybe there would have been a deal, by now.
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Old 10-07-2016, 01:54 PM   #32
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Daddyo,

Boat rides are cheap in the whole scheme of things. If I were selling, everyone gets one who asks, unless they just piss me off. And if they don't buy, I still like showing my boat off. That's cheap. You can do a pretty reasonable assessment of the boat in about 30 minutes on the water, and 30 min in the dock.
I agree with this as well. Sure, as a broker you need to protect yourself from liability and maybe there is some there (or they are just too busy), but the guy we bought from was more than willing to take us out for a spin... twice. There is never a bad excuse to go for a boat ride I even offered to pay for fuel and he declined. And if the time comes to sell again (yea right), we would easily be able to be talked into going for a spin. Unwillingness to do so, CAN (but not always) make it appear the seller is hiding something.

**All this is negated if the seller is remote enough to make getting to the vessel a huge PITA**
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Old 10-07-2016, 03:57 PM   #33
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**All this is negated if the seller is remote enough to make getting to the vessel a huge PITA**
Or the boat is stored on the hard
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Old 10-07-2016, 04:37 PM   #34
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Well put.
At my last offer, I was very close to just call the seller directly, since my buyer broker could not get any decent communication from the listing broker.
So a question comes to my mind. Can the seller be contacted directly, if the listing broker is doing a lousy job? Either by me, or by my buyer broker?
I don't know the rules, so I am curious.
I am sure the listing broker would be furious, but if we could cut to the chase and make the seller aware of the difficulties and talking to him directly, maybe there would have been a deal, by now.
As a buyer, you are under no contract (unless you sign one) and can do pretty much whatever you want.

I've done that a few times... simply told the broker that I'm going to contact the seller direct as we are not getting the job done. The seller is still obligated to the broker, if the contract provides for that. It doesn't make the broker happy, but sometimes personalities just conflict.

Overall, I have done MUCH better in dealing direct with the owner.

Also, If I hire a broker to sell and I bring the buyer, we split the commission. Only fair.
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Old 10-07-2016, 07:03 PM   #35
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As a buyer, you are under no contract (unless you sign one) and can do pretty much whatever you want.
Understand.
Can my ' buyer's broker ' contact the seller directly, if the listing broker is not communicating, or trying to be difficult?
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Old 10-07-2016, 07:52 PM   #36
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If I can test drive a car before deciding to contract to buy it, why not a boat?
DenverdOn pretty much nails the peculiarities of the seller/seller broker/buyer /buyer broker complexities. However you view it, the seller pays the seller broker and the seller broker pays the buyers broker. It`s crystal the seller is paying the buyers broker via the conduit of his sellers broker. No sale no fee can be persuasive.
There is no lack of conflicted interests in this system. For it to work well for the buyer requires overriding integrity of the buyers broker. A seller could even "sweeten the deal" by upping the commission to his broker, thus upping the commission to the buyers broker. It`s an odd system. Here,real estate buyers brokers(we call them agents) exist as the exception not the norm, retained and paid solely by the buyer.
There are plenty of real estate agents/brokers here with little understanding or interest in their duties as an agent, and far more interest in self interest. The boat "buyers broker" does not exist here as such, though there are almost certainly "conjunction sales" which may amount to something similar. Except for FSBO sales, a boat buyer deals direct with the sellers broker and everyone knows where the interests are.
But if your "buyers broker" is a dedicated straight up operator favoring your interests and no one else`s, not even his own, you may have struck gold, I certainly hope that is so, in all cases.
As for a sellers broker refusing to deal with a buyers broker to avoid parting with some of the fee, whose interests are being served? Surely part of the cake is preferable to no cake at all. But, that may be unfair, the seller and his broker might have agreed there should be no sellers brokers and no commission sharing.Unlikely, but possible.
It`s an odd system. I`d label it "the strawberry punnet system", the deeper you go, the worse it gets. Fortunately, broker integrity can save the day, and I hope that`s present all day long.
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Old 10-07-2016, 08:22 PM   #37
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Understand.
Can my ' buyer's broker ' contact the seller directly, if the listing broker is not communicating, or trying to be difficult?
Good question. Maybe D-O can answer. I don't know.
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Old 10-07-2016, 08:46 PM   #38
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Good question. Maybe D-O can answer. I don't know.
Technically anything is possible but ethically the only time you would do such a thing would be a case of clear cut unethical behavior by the listing broker.
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Old 10-07-2016, 08:52 PM   #39
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Out of curiosity, at what price range are buyers brokers willing to represent a client? It seems that a buyers broker could consume his portion of the commission very quickly on a $100,000 boat if any significant traveling is involved.

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Old 10-07-2016, 09:38 PM   #40
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Technically anything is possible but ethically the only time you would do such a thing would be a case of clear cut unethical behavior by the listing broker.
Why would it be unethical? The broker is the sellers agent. Whether the buyer talks to the broker or the seller, he talks to the seller.
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