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Old 05-09-2016, 07:55 PM   #21
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Charter and get out on the water! I have been a trawler fan for a very long time. Over the last couple years I got seduced by some other form factors (started with going on a 50' GB Eastbay). Chartered a similar type of boat last year thinking I would really love it. I didn't. Only cost 5 or 6k to find out.
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:52 PM   #22
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Thanks again everyone. Nope, wont be rebuilding anything. In fact would like to find something fairly dependable as we aren't needing a project. We will be heading out into remote areas of the Pacific northwest mainly to explore and do some kayaking (after 15 years of running kayaking adventure businesses we want to stay active as long as possible in our retirement) The boat is to serve as a comfortable mother ship.


We have identified some must haves. A centerline berth in the main stateroom. Twin engines. A good area to relax in, like the boats that don't have a built in dinette type structure or if they do still have some room to put in some comfy chairs. A generator and good heating system. The largest fuel and water tanks possible. Of course the usual galley and head with shower. A spot to strap on some sea kayaks. All that for under 100K Cdn. Which seems to put us into 70's and 80's boats.


Some of my questions are mainly to hear opinions from people that have been around trawlers for some time. Avoid as many dumb mistakes as possible. Other than taking up a live aboard lifestyle that is.


Have looked at Bayliners. Stopped after reading another forum about how they are built and if you aren't careful on haulout and leave the tanks full, that weight can hog the frame. The writer mentioned how he has heard of them breaking apart and sinking in rough seas due to stresses like that on haulout. Perhaps the older ones were built stronger? They do have some out there with good prices.


We aren't looking for anything with semi planing hulls. Preferably with some keel. Heavy and slow is good with us. Spend some time in remote fjords on the hook.


A new question - are the bow thrusters a large advantage when docking to resupply at busy Marinas?
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:04 PM   #23
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A few random thoughts...

- A dinette can be really handy for eating. One option that some boats have is a dinette table that folds in on itself. This makes it a skinny "cocktail" type table giving lots of comfortable room for sitting at the dinette seats. Of course, it is very easy to simply remove the dinette table and seats in most boats if you choose and drop a couple easy chairs in its place.

- You want twins but it sounds like you want a full displacement hull. I am not that experienced but most boats with twins seem to be on at least Semi-displacement hulls. It sounds as if you may want twins for the redundancy in remote anchorages?

- Don't write off Bayliners. I was as guilty as any at not thinking very highly of them but it was simply ignorance on my part. A Bayliner 45xx would be comfortable, roomy, has twin engines, has a nice sized boat deck for putting your kayaks, and is a great value on the used market. Bang for buck, a used 45xx is hard to beat. KevinS runs a Bayliner all over the PNW and Alaska and can give you great information on how well it handles.

- I am new to bow thrusters and I have to say that I now love them. It makes a huge difference. However, I have a single. It may be less of an issue if you have twins.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:02 PM   #24
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Werner, try to track down a late 70s, early 80s 40' to 44' Tollycraft Aft Cabin to look at. Especially a 43 if you can. Gas or diesel. Great west coast boats for what you have in mind.

You may change gears a bit.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:52 PM   #25
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Have looked at Bayliners. Stopped after reading another forum about how they are built and if you aren't careful on haulout and leave the tanks full, that weight can hog the frame. The writer mentioned how he has heard of them breaking apart and sinking in rough seas due to stresses like that on haulout. Perhaps the older ones were built stronger? They do have some out there with good prices.
That is total BS. Odd how many people who have never been on a Bayliner, never owned one choose to make up such things. Meanwhile, we've done the question in threads here of actual owners and no such tales, no horror stories, a very happy, pleased customer. Stresses on haulout? Wow. Insane. Weight can hog the frame? Where do people come up with these things. In all these years there is not a single case reported yet of delamination. If Bertram could have said that, they might not have been sold. I thought surely when we started a thread here some angry owners would surface, but they just didn't.

Are they boats to cross oceans? No. But fine boats for runs to the Bahamas.

There are negative things that one can express toward them, stating why one person or another doesn't like them. However, tales such as the one you're relating have no basis in fact. It's all "I heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone who probably made up the entire story."
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:16 PM   #26
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A heavy deep keel boat with twins...that would be an rare bird indeed. It's hard to imagine a distance cruiser type wanting to double the maintenance cost, lower the efficiency, un-protect the running gear, duplicate the controls, and take up all that space...and then not need the 2nd engine to get above hull speed.

Whatever that story was about Bayliners hogging - that's a new one for me. There are also more than a dozen of the older 32 and 38 motoryachts in my club that have cruised the PNW for 30 years each without any problems (OK, one guy lost an engine - but then he upgraded to a 47). And I don't recall this issue coming up on the Bayliner Owner Forum, but by all means if some random person says it then it must be true.

If you're looking to purchase a vessel in the PNW for $70K to $80K (US) and you're not looking at Bayliners, Tollys, and Uniflites then I think you need to keep doing your research until they start to become attractive.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:20 PM   #27
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[QUOTE=Werner;440778]


Have looked at Bayliners. Stopped after reading another forum about how they are built and if you aren't careful on haulout and leave the tanks full, that weight can hog the frame. The writer mentioned how he has heard of them breaking apart and sinking in rough seas due to stresses like that on haulout. Perhaps the older ones were built stronger? They do have some out there with good prices.

Perhaps you should get all your advice on that forum if your not only going to believe but reprint such utter BS.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:47 PM   #28
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Good entertainment, this thread.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:02 AM   #29
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Werner.

A few words of advice. I'd suggest coming to a new forum and reading a lot initially, then asking a few questions. I would strongly suggest not reposting garbage you've heard from the drunks at the bar or their online equivalent. You could have just as easily asked opinions on Bayliners and on various Taiwanese boats without quoting or paraphrasing nonsense from other places on the web.

We all have our preferences, but you don't see a lot of hyperbole here of boats falling apart and unsafe at any speed. The fact is most boats are good, just some better. Most have their attributes, just some more. There are very few builders out there building bad boats. Just some not as good as others. What you're more likely to hear here are personal preferences stated as such and when asked what we think of a brand, if we say we don't like them, we'll generally say why.

I'll give you a good example. Fleming is generally recognized as one of the top quality boats on the market. Built in Taiwan, by the way. Caltex will point out how high the sides of a Hatteras are compared to a Fleming and how much bigger his Hatteras was than a similar length Fleming when docked beside it. All factual and he's a Hatteras fan. However, nothing malicious or fabricated in his comments.

As part of your potential boat search you need to explore different attributes of boats and then those brands that best fit your needs. You also need to be more careful about where you gather information and much more careful about redistributing that information without further verifying it.
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Old 05-10-2016, 12:23 AM   #30
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A heavy deep keel boat with twins...that would be an rare bird indeed. It's hard to imagine a distance cruiser type wanting to double the maintenance cost, lower the efficiency, un-protect the running gear, duplicate the controls, and take up all that space...and then not need the 2nd engine to get above hull speed.

Kadey Krogen. Many buyers are commissioning the new 50+footers with twins. And they are full displacement hulls. Personally I'd prefer a single, but the twins have a shallower draft for those areas where it is a good idea (the Bahamas?)


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Old 05-10-2016, 12:28 AM   #31
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Taking the plunge?

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Werner.



A few words of advice. I'd suggest coming to a new forum and reading a lot initially, then asking a few questions. I would strongly suggest not reposting garbage you've heard from the drunks at the bar or their online equivalent. You could have just as easily asked opinions on Bayliners and on various Taiwanese boats without quoting or paraphrasing nonsense from other places on the web.



We all have our preferences, but you don't see a lot of hyperbole here of boats falling apart and unsafe at any speed. The fact is most boats are good, just some better. Most have their attributes, just some more. There are very few builders out there building bad boats. Just some not as good as others. What you're more likely to hear here are personal preferences stated as such and when asked what we think of a brand, if we say we don't like them, we'll generally say why.



I'll give you a good example. Fleming is generally recognized as one of the top quality boats on the market. Built in Taiwan, by the way. Caltex will point out how high the sides of a Hatteras are compared to a Fleming and how much bigger his Hatteras was than a similar length Fleming when docked beside it. All factual and he's a Hatteras fan. However, nothing malicious or fabricated in his comments.



As part of your potential boat search you need to explore different attributes of boats and then those brands that best fit your needs. You also need to be more careful about where you gather information and much more careful about redistributing that information without further verifying it.

Oooo! Flaming pots of boiling oil flung over the parapets! Run for your lives! Run for your lives!

Come on, BB! We're were all new to this once!


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Old 05-10-2016, 01:33 AM   #32
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Come on, BB! We're were all new to this once!
As someone who is definitely still new I do agree. We need to cut Werner some slack.

Werner, there are certainly boats out there that could meet your needs. In your budget range, they will likely take some work. What you are looking to do is a fantastic idea. Use a trawler to get you to places to explore in your kayaks. Your home waters are about ideal for that. I just don't think you will find what you have described at anywhere near what you have to spend.

When I started looking at power boats, I made a common mistake of looking for particular features or attributes, rather than looking at the function. With the help of the TF crew, I found my way to my new boat. Form follows function. Identify as nearly as you can what you want the boat to do, and then look at the forms of those boats that will do it.
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Old 05-10-2016, 02:25 AM   #33
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Werver-I will second B's comments on the Bayliners. What you read is complete crap. I know folks who worked for Orrin Edson and believe me, he would never build a boat with those kinds of problems. If you want an idea of what a lot of folks think of them-take a trip to visit us in Seattle, on a nice warm sunny weekend, go down to the Ballard Locks and watch the boats going through. On a busy weekend you will see several hundred boats go through, it always seems like about half of them are Bayliners. All those people did not buy one because it might fall apart.
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Old 05-10-2016, 07:55 AM   #34
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Sorry for upsetting some. As my source of information is the internet for trying to decide on the best boat to buy, I though it would be OK to post some of the info I read and let the experts tell me the reality. None of it is MY opinions as my experience with these boats in non existent - why getting your opinions is important to me. As I mentioned earlier, I have no basis to form any opinions on boats yet. Good to hear about the Bayliners here. I had thought of going to the US to look as the selection is so much larger but our dollar takes a 20-25% beating as soon as I cross the border and then I imagine there are all sorts of other costs with importing a boat.

I guess I will have to try to figure out how this forum works and see what else is out there for info. Not used to the setup and its format and navigating around in here is a bit foreign to me so I haven't done much yet except put up this post. Many of my questions have probably already been answered. Certainly getting some response on this thread though, which is great. Haven't started to run for my life yet jdcave but some of the burns have me backing up a bit.

Perhaps I can start getting a bit of a education on what is being said....
Quote:
A heavy deep keel boat with twins...that would be an rare bird indeed. It's hard to imagine a distance cruiser type wanting to double the maintenance cost, lower the efficiency, un-protect the running gear, duplicate the controls, and take up all that space...and then not need the 2nd engine to get above hull speed.


I thought some of the boats I have looked at for sale, such as a Ocean Alexander 390, Canoe Cove, Cheer Men Bros and a lovely 42 ft Garren Blakely designed by Monk would be what are slow, heavy boats suitable for my needs. The twins in my non educated opinion are for safety and maneuverability in close quarters around marinas. I really don't care about speed. Some have bow thrusters - perhaps not needed on twins as the twins cancel out issues of prop walk in tight quarters?

Would these boats not be displacement hulls? Looking at the speeds advertised I assumed they would be. Would it be better to concentrate on single engine boats? I can see that maint would be cheaper, less fuel, protecting the running gear with a keel on a single. But would the maneuverability and safety factor where the other engine could allow a limp back to harbour out-weigh those factors. Any idea on how much it costs to install a bow thruster if a old boat doesn't have one?

I should mention that I actually live on the other coast, on the Bay of Fundy in Nova Scotia so I wont actually see in person the boats I am interested in until this fall when I head out to the west coast. I am familiar with the west coast though, having lived as a child in Qualicum Beach on Vancouver Island and have family out there who I might ask to go check out a boat for me. Any ideas on whether best to go through a broker or a private sale?
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:20 AM   #35
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Don't sweat it Werner, at least you got a few pulse rates to go up around here. One thing to know about forums is how to sift through the replies. You are getting good advice but... So far there's been quite a bit of piling on in this thread and damn little attempt to help educate a new member that's new to boating and that's a shame. Take your time and use the search function a bit and see what comes up.
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Old 05-10-2016, 08:48 AM   #36
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Greetings,
Mr. W. I see no need to wait until you go west. You should take the opportunity to go on any and all boats at every opportunity. You may well find a model or a make in your locale that you can also search for on the west coast. I've said before that 99% of the fun is in the looking and the other 100% is in the doing.

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Old 05-10-2016, 09:49 AM   #37
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I thought some of the boats I have looked at for sale, such as a Ocean Alexander 390, Canoe Cove, Cheer Men Bros and a lovely 42 ft Garren Blakely designed by Monk would be what are slow, heavy boats suitable for my needs. The twins in my non educated opinion are for safety and maneuverability in close quarters around marinas. I really don't care about speed. Some have bow thrusters - perhaps not needed on twins as the twins cancel out issues of prop walk in tight quarters?

Would these boats not be displacement hulls? Looking at the speeds advertised I assumed they would be. Would it be better to concentrate on single engine boats?
I see the Ocean 390 you are talking about - twin 300hp Volvo TAMD 61A. A very expensive engine to maintain, and two of them. Turbo-charged. Should do 20+ knots. 3'2" draft is far from a deep protected keel. Though it would be possible to operate this boat at displacement speeds, this is pretty far from being a trawler. It is, however, the same type of motoryacht as the other brands I mentioned and Ocean Alexanders have a strong following in the PNW and would probably be on the same level as Tollycraft. Canoe Cove makes similar style boats but almost all of them stay up in Canada for some reason. Flat sheer, they have a rather distinctive style and their own following.

I have no idea about the Cheer Men, but the Garren Blakely has some features that look odd to me. It appears that it was remodeled a bit to make it more like a condo liveaboard. It's rare to see a full size home dishwasher on a boat this size. And a central vac. And under-counter lighting. Locating the entertainment electronics under the port side sliding window looks to be an extremely poor decision. Note the water stains on the wood above and nearby. And note that the only exit from the cabin is out onto the aft deck (those sliding windows are too small, and the side deck too narrow to exit). Twin 210hp Cats might get this boat up to 13 knots. All of that exterior woodwork appears degraded - and there's a lot of it around that aft deck enclosure. As for seaworthiness, that aft deck with a heavy RIB with 4 stroke on top looks top heavy. No picture of the engine room also gives me pause. Where did you read that this boat was designed by Ed Monk? I can't imagine Sr or Jr would have put that oversized hardtop over the reversed bulwark at the stern.

I'd take a good look at the Ocean. In fact, my gut feel is that boat sells quickly at that price.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:16 AM   #38
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I'd take a good look at the Ocean. In fact, my gut feel is that boat sells quickly at that price.
Keith, you need an appointment with a Gastroenterologist.

Werner, don't invest in a ticket to Vancouver Island just yet.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:46 AM   #39
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As opposed to the modern run of expensive maxi-trawlers with their absurd windage and top-heavy motion at sea, here you’ll find a smart combination of a proven seaworthy design, quality manufacture, and most importantly for a vessel this age – a long history of Meticulous Upkeep and Improvements! This lovingly cared for trawler comes from the sharp pencil of naval architect Ed Monk Jr., renowned in part for his efforts with the Ocean Alexander line of trawlers, and was built at Garren Blakely Yachts Ltd. In Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada, a yard well respected for its line of commercial fishing trawlers.
This is from a ad for another Ocean Alexander for sale. I assumed that it would mean all Ocean Alexanders were designed by Monk and then built in the Blakely yard. Not so?

The trawler part confuses me - what classes a boat as a trawler if these boats aren't?

I do thank you Keith for pointing out all those items. I did notice the rail needs some work - sanding and re-varnish? Didn't notice the rest at all except would have to ask for pics of the engine room. 13 knots is good with us. Thinking cruise at 6-8 knots would be the usual speed when exploring the coast. It does look like a great live aboard though with all its comforts - on the other end of the scale from the C&C boat I was looking at. Thing that bothered me the most, as we would be on this boat a lot - the master bed against walls on all sides but one. Someone has to crawl over the other to get out... But those things you mention about sea worthiness are certainly things to consider. Hawgwash, I will check that link. Thank you.
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Old 05-10-2016, 10:51 AM   #40
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"The trawler part confuses me - what classes a boat as a trawler if these boats aren't? "

Don't get hung up on that trawler term. It's fairly meaningless. Just find a boat that does what you want it to, and most importantly that was owned previously by a caring person who took care of the boat and all the systems.
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