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Old 11-30-2012, 11:26 PM   #21
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Integrity trawlers? Can you say "Island Gypsy".
Are they IG similar or derivative? A new semi displacement trawler style is just that, more modern in fit out design. I tell people you can buy new versions which, other than being new, are much the same. I`ve seen an Integrity 350 and was struck by how IG similar it was though of a lesser standard generally, but I could identify with owning one. The 380(around 500K) looks a step up from the 350,eg. fully opening saloon. Integrity keep updating & developing.
Someone must have the IG hull moulds, but lots of boats are like that. There was something like it called, maybe Sea Gypsy I don`t see it advertised now. Integrity is in a way a fair successor to IG. Not seeing them around Sydney harbour, like Alaska (my current dream), Blue Seas, etc, most retailing is in Queensland.
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Old 12-01-2012, 06:32 AM   #22
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However "superbly seaworthy" it may be I'll bet big head seas would give it a pounding and ballast for that seaworthyness may put a dent in the efficiency.

Zero ballast is required on a well done hull,the Sea Bright hulls could carry an immense load , and land it , and left the shore empty.

To be a seaworthy boat requires the scantlings to be up to snuff , and for me the boat to be light enough and skinny enough .

If we look at our ancestors boats , light and slender was the rule.

One "cheat " I have designed in is a wide centerboard trunk , where the board would pivot side to side and be given a slight angle of attack to function as a roll damper. An air ram is fast enough , and simple enough.

On grounding or when not needed ,the board would simply pivot up as centerboards have been doing for centuries.

No hole knocked in the hull, or need for frangible fin construction as with "modern" high complexity high buck systems..

And remember this is still basically an inshore boat so 50K and 15 ft seas would be an ACCIDENT! , certainly survivable , but not normal cruising operation.

I'm not sure that many of my design could be sold as so few actually cruise , so most prefer a Roomaran, to an all weather cruising boat.

When I say skinny I am talking about a boat with near 6-1 LWL to beam , sorta like a catamaran in terms of pushing thu the water .

with a 39 LOA and LWL (to fit in a shipping container) the BWL ,( beam on the water line) is little over 6 ft.

The old Thunderbird 26ft cruiser/racer had similar beam dimensions , so a comfortable but hardly impressive interior is easy.

I'm still toying with the idea , and if I could find a place that was reasonable enough might toss $100K at it.

The usual hassle , light weight and strong requires a better standard of construction and many skills , not 3rd world standards.
One reason for aluminum, lots more places work with it to a reasonable standard.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:47 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by BruceK View Post
Are they IG similar or derivative? A new semi displacement trawler style is just that, more modern in fit out design. I tell people you can buy new versions which, other than being new, are much the same. I`ve seen an Integrity 350 and was struck by how IG similar it was though of a lesser standard generally, but I could identify with owning one. The 380(around 500K) looks a step up from the 350,eg. fully opening saloon. Integrity keep updating & developing.
Someone must have the IG hull moulds, but lots of boats are like that. There was something like it called, maybe Sea Gypsy I don`t see it advertised now. Integrity is in a way a fair successor to IG. Not seeing them around Sydney harbour, like Alaska (my current dream), Blue Seas, etc, most retailing is in Queensland.

It seems that we discussed this once before: Integrity Trawlers
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Old 12-01-2012, 12:06 PM   #24
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Thanks to all who have provided feedback. I look forward to hearing from more people and thier list of "must haves". Regarding our current concept we are will be under 39 feet in lenght and 13' 6" in beam. The reason for the wider hull is for maximum interior space. Looked long and hard at Downeaster's and spoke with all the major builders. Came very close but determined that interior finish we desire would make the boat cost prohibitive and we would take a big hit with resale. Someone mentioned John Deere as the engine of choice and is in fact the direction we are looking at going. Dependability and reliability is a top priority sincew we insisting on a single engine configuration. I'm considering a steady sail and would appreciate input from anyone who has real life experience with this set up. I'm also looking at paravane's since we do not want active fin stabilizers this time around for a number of reasons. Besides using the boat on west coast we want it to a good fit for the east coast and islands.
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Old 12-01-2012, 03:38 PM   #25
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... I'm also looking at paravane's since we do not want active fin stabilizers this time around for a number of reasons.
OK... as a fan of active fin stabilizers I wouldn't be without them. Would you share some reasons for not having them and preferring to deal with paravanes instead?

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Old 12-01-2012, 04:38 PM   #26
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I'm considering a steady sail and would appreciate input from anyone who has real life experience with this set up.
How useful a steady sail might be to you depends on your expectations and the way you use the boat. I think you mentioned wanting speed greater than a N40? Efficent speed means light (or lighter) weight......This means a shallower and flatter bottomed hull. Light weight and shallow hull equals quicker motion which can be hard for a sail to deal with (lots of flapping). Sails will work on a slow rolling, heavy displacement boat. As long as you are willing to tack according to the wind. Remember the apparent wind moves forward with speed, again the slower you go the less you will need to tack (shallower angles).
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Old 12-01-2012, 04:41 PM   #27
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Old 12-01-2012, 04:56 PM   #28
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Active Fin Stabilizers

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OK... as a fan of active fin stabilizers I wouldn't be without them. Would you share some reasons for not having them and preferring to deal with paravanes instead?

Dave

Dave, our primary reason for not wanting active fins on our next boat is a combination of wanting a simplier boat with less systems to worry about and the fact that on our two previous Nordhavns we found that we didn't need them better than 50% of the time due in part to the way we used the boat. I say didn't need them because we always had to run them so not to damage the system while running at 6 knots. If we were planning to cross an ocean or make frequent passages greater than 200 miles I would option for them. Our plans are for weekend and vacation runs of 60 - 80 miles with an occasional 500 mile run up the coast. For this we will watch the weather a little closer and use a steady sail and paravanes. I like the paravanes since when the weather is good we don't have to take the hit on speed (1kt) and fuel burn due to dragging fins. We plan to design a simplier approach to launching and retreiving them than the current style. I also didn't like having to stop the boat and remove kelp and occassional rope off the fins every time we entered San Diego Bay.

One reason I ilke the concept of using a wide beam, semi-displacement hull is the benefit of less role (versus 6kts) in a beam sea when you pick up the speed to the 10 - 12kts range. If things are very rough we deploy paravanes and slow down to 6-8kts until the weather calms then bring them in and pick up speed again. If anyone is wondering the cost difference between active fins like our TRAC stabs and a set of paravens it is about $35,000. Again, our goal is to increase our cruising speed from 6kts by 50% - 100% or to 9 - 12kts. This will make weekend trips in Southern California where the average distance between ports is 60 miles possible for us. Looking back over five years of travels with our Nordhavns the worst weather we hit was 5' - 7' head seas close together while traveling uphill from Enseneda, Mexico. Nothing helped the pitching and the active fin stab's while on did nothing to comfort us even when we changed course slightly so not to take the waves directly on the nose. The only that would have helped would have been a much larger boat with a a longer waterline. So in summary our desire is for a simplier boat, less expensive to build and operate while still providing the quality and comfort we have become use to and which may be attractive to others looking for the same. I feel there is a need for this type of boat and the marketplace has not yet offered it. In the end I could be wrong but at least I'm enjoying this project and will have a boat the way I want it next year. Thanks for your question.
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:07 PM   #29
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Steady Sails

[QUOTE=Tad Roberts;116635]How useful a steady sail might be to you depends on your expectations and the way you use the boat. I think you mentioned wanting speed greater than a N40? Efficent speed means light (or lighter) weight......This means a shallower and flatter bottomed hull. Light weight and shallow hull equals quicker motion which can be hard for a sail to deal with (lots of flapping).


Ted, thank you for the insight. While the hull we are exploring is semi-displacement (38 x 13'6") the boat will be on the heavy side (30K lbs) as compared to the N40 at about 43K lbs with half load of fuel. The aft section of the hull is very similar to that of a Nordhavn and Selene and she has a full keel with 3 1/2' draft. So she has some some hull under the water and will not be flying across the top of the water. Based on this high level overview do you think the sail will provide some assistance in a beam sea without the parvanes deployed? Funny thing when I was researching Main Downeast boats were the number of older boats like Jarvis Newman that had a sail. If nothing else it looked good! Thank you for your assistance.
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Old 12-01-2012, 05:34 PM   #30
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Humm.....I just googled Jarvis Newman and could not find any pics of boats with a steadying sail. Perhaps you are thinking of the real (fishing) lobster boats with a small sail over the transom? That's not a steady sail as such, it's more a control flap, it helps cock the bow into the wind when they are stopped and hauling pots......it's a lot less rolly that way....
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:14 PM   #31
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A friend of mine had a Jarvis Newman 36 with a tall mast. I don't remember him ever putting a sail on it but he did have a crows nest with steering and engine controls. I think he liked the privacy up there.

Tad, my little Yankee boat likes to sail while at anchor. Would one of those little sails on the stern help keep her pointed into the wind?
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Old 12-01-2012, 07:40 PM   #32
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TAD,
A big welcome to Trawler Forum and I hope our group here hold's enough of your interest to keep you around.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:00 PM   #33
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Did not read all other posts so disregard if this has been said.

Sounds like you need a New England lobsterboat hull and a trip to Maine should turn up 6-8 builders that would do what you want.

If 40' is the size. Try Dyer Boats in Warren, RI. Interestingly, they have been building FG boats since 1955. They make a nice narrow hull & provided it is not overweight with added "stuff"; moves as nice as any boat you will find at the speeds you specify. This is true of any true downeast boat, they should not be overloaded. if made to carry excessive weight properly, they become too wide. The Newman 36 is a nice hull too.

The Novi (Nova Scotia) lobsterboat is interesting too albeit ugly to my eye. It is wide but cleverly, the transom is not immersed so it slips along very easily at low speeds and is a good load carrier. When you are ready to run, it rocks back on it's wide transom and runs like a planing boat.
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Old 12-01-2012, 08:09 PM   #34
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According to Professional Boat Builder magazine Dave Martin is probably the most prolific of designers with more designs in production than anyone else. He designed a 40' model in the early 80's called the "Trendsetter 40", narrow beam, single 235hp Volvo planes at 9 knots using 1.8GPH, cruises at 14 knots and can hit 21 knots if all the tanks are low. It's a very curious bottom design with very drmatic deadrise on the forward 1/3, very shallow deadrise in the mid 1/3 with the aft 1/3 having round bilges.

The magazine ran a feature on Dave Martin and his designs (including the Trendsetter 40) a few years ago. You can search and purchase old copies on their websites.
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Old 12-01-2012, 11:54 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N4061 View Post
Thanks to all who have provided feedback. I look forward to hearing from more people and thier list of "must haves"................. I'm also looking at paravane's since we do not want active fin stabilizers this time around for a number of reasons. Besides using the boat on west coast we want it to a good fit for the east coast and islands.
N4061, it sounds like money is not a huge issue here, but rather trying to end up with a vessel as near perfect for your specific requirements at this time.
Steadying sails are often ugly on a powered vessel and look a bit like a tack-on, (Sorry Mark - suits your boat, but not many), and not that effective, especially at anchor, or if you want speed as well, and active fins are not on for same reasons. That is inhibit speed and useless at anchor.
Paravanes are a pain to use and can be dangerous to set and retrieve...so...
what about this new gyroscopic approach. Effective at any speed, at anchor and no drag or need to deploy. You just switch them on or off. Your proposed vessel just comes in the minimum size range for these...
Seakeeper Website
I saw them demonstrated recently and they are impressive. If I could afford a larger and newer boat, that's what I would use...
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Old 12-02-2012, 01:39 AM   #36
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... (Sorry Mark - suits your boat, but not many), and not that effective, especially at anchor, or if you want speed as well, and active fins are not on for same reasons. ...
Hear ya.



Helps not to have a flybridge.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:01 AM   #37
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N4061

The wheel you are turning has already been invented. Having said this, I can easily see the fun to be had in designing a new build. But I also know the pain. The worst pain is after the job is completed, the known builder's vessels still look and perform better. There are lots of Down East or lobster boat designs already in the water that can be had today with known performance, sea keeping and price.
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Old 12-02-2012, 10:21 AM   #38
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Have you checked out coastalcraft.com? I know they do custom boats, as a friend has one coming that started out as a production model and is ending up several feet longer and with a third engine.

Their fuel economy claim for the production 40' is " While going slow, the 400IPS offers fuel economy of 4 nautical miles per US Gallon at 7.5 knots. At 30 knots this agile performer boasts 1 nautical mile per US gallon"
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Old 12-02-2012, 03:56 PM   #39
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Tad, my little Yankee boat likes to sail while at anchor. Would one of those little sails on the stern help keep her pointed into the wind?
Hop....

If your's is the one in your avatar I doubt it......It's a question of proportion, very hard to overcome the windage of that tall flying bridge with a sail someplace aft of it.

Something about the size of the sail below will make a diference.....

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Old 12-02-2012, 03:59 PM   #40
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TAD,
A big welcome to Trawler Forum and I hope our group here hold's enough of your interest to keep you around.
Easy Rider
Well, thank you Easy.....

I'm just here to learn, exchange ideas, and perhaps help with some technical issues where I can.....
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