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Old 10-06-2013, 10:54 PM   #41
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I would make a small wager that these are after market stabilizers installed on an older vessel. It would be interesting to know the FRP layup and design protocol that went into the install. It doesn't appear (hard to tell though) from the pics that the backing blocks bonded well to the hull layup, unfortunately not uncommon in an after market job.

On our DF48, the stabilizer blocks are about 18" on a side and 2" thick and installed during the hull layup, the preferred way to do it.

Without some dimensions it is hard to tell if the hull is thin or not, but no blisters are apparent! Thanks for the pictures, when were they taken?
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:07 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by pilothouse king View Post
The hull looked thin to us-compared to other boats. That's ALL I was saying. The "how" was not the issue! Attachment 23451

Attachment 23452
A boat's hull doesn't need to be thick to be strong..
Some manufacturers use cloth that is finer, has less density, have directional roving and a lower resin to cloth ratio.Vacuum bagging may also be part of the process and therefore the hull is lighter and....thinner!. Another manufacturer will use heavier mat (or gasp... chopped fiber) no vac bagging and have a thicker but inferior in strength to the thinner hull. Nordhavn actually puts the weight in ballast to make a safe, sea kindly hull.
I think the thing is that some of us .. or maybe it was just me, read that you inferred that the Nordhavn is somehow inferior because of the "thin" hull.
I have put my life at stake in a Nordhavn offshore at night for days on end in less than ideal conditions and I don't really care if the hull is thick or thin. I know it works as designed and built.

I used to be part of the drag boat racing world and we had hulls that weighed 400lbs and could withstand the torque of 4000 hp @ 250mph. If the hull was designed right all was well and it worked as it should. If the boat blew over it shredded into little tiny pieces. Just because it couldn't take the stress of a 200mph flip didn't make it a poor or inferior design.
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:09 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by sunchaser View Post
I would make a small wager that these are after market stabilizers installed on an older vessel. It would be interesting to know the FRP layup and design protocol that went into the install. It doesn't appear (hard to tell though) from the pics that the backing blocks bonded well to the hull layup, unfortunately not uncommon in an after market job.

On our DF48, the stabilizer blocks are about 18" on a side and 2" thick and installed during the hull layup, the preferred way to do it.

Without some dimensions it is hard to tell if the hull is thin or not, but no blisters are apparent! Thanks for the pictures, when were they taken?
2009. At the yard across from Marine Liquidators in Ft. Lauderdale. Harry Schoels old yard. I just happened to be driving through to look at some repo's they had stored there- and saw this, stopped took photos- yard manager came out to ask me why. I told him "not a lawyer" gave him a business card, and he told me the story. I didn't post photos of her name, or the rest of the boat, just in case it's out there somewhere. Don't want to get depositioned if this boat was actually patched up and returned to service. Rather attention getting. I think you can measure the dimensions by the shaft of the stabilizer fin. It wasn't 6" inches wide! lol
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Old 10-06-2013, 11:59 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by hollywood8118 View Post
A boat's hull doesn't need to be thick to be strong..
Some manufacturers use cloth that is finer, has less density, have directional roving and a lower resin to cloth ratio.Vacuum bagging may also be part of the process and therefore the hull is lighter and....thinner!. Another manufacturer will use heavier mat (or gasp... chopped fiber) no vac bagging and have a thicker but inferior in strength to the thinner hull. Nordhavn actually puts the weight in ballast to make a safe, sea kindly hull.
I think the thing is that some of us .. or maybe it was just me, read that you inferred that the Nordhavn is somehow inferior because of the "thin" hull.
I have put my life at stake in a Nordhavn offshore at night for days on end in less than ideal conditions and I don't really care if the hull is thick or thin. I know it works as designed and built.

I used to be part of the drag boat racing world and we had hulls that weighed 400lbs and could withstand the torque of 4000 hp @ 250mph. If the hull was designed right all was well and it worked as it should. If the boat blew over it shredded into little tiny pieces. Just because it couldn't take the stress of a 200mph flip didn't make it a poor or inferior design.
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I indeed said it was "thin". It looks thin to me. You're absolutely correct about a boat not having to be heavy to be strong, BUT we (me, yard manager, & some buddies of mine) were questioning where the weight of this boat is at, IF the hulls not thick?
As far as passage making. I recently sold a Wellcraft 43' Portifino, which is a cocktail Bay cruiser (what it was marketed as) and the buyer took her from Miami to Curacao on her bottom in Hurricane season non-stop (except for fuel of course) with no problems.
Back in the day, when I worked at Merrill-Stevens as a broker we had a yard full of seized drug boats out back. Several were big Carri Craft Houseboats (catamaran hulls) with gas engines that had delivered ton's of weed direct from Columbia to Miami non-stop running at pretty much WOT (so said one of the Captains) and one can argue neither the Carri-crafts OR the Wellcraft were designed to be passagemakers, but make passage they did. NOW I have respect for those marques because of what I saw, and know. I'm a big believer of what MY eyes see, and not what others tell me what they read. It's my experience, they're not the same.
I understand quality. I still own a 15' Hobie Power Skiff made of Kevlar. I bought her in 1988. It's still like new although it's been run hard it's whole life. Soon after purchasing, I shitcanned the 40hp Yamaha, and have been running it with a 90hp ever since. Light, thin, strong, but it was advertised as such, same as ALL the modern high performance boats like Contender and Intrepid. You ever looked at the weight of a Contender? And they have 3 or 4 outboards hanging off the back. Hatteras's are marketed as heavy boats, and they're so thick that they destroyed docks when Hurricanes picked them up and threw them on the street a quarter mile from the marina. I've never been able to look in one, but I've seen them gouged REAL deep, but never deep enough to be holed.
So I believe them, when they say they're heavy. There's plenty of photo documentation of them after Hurricanes (google up "Dinner Key Marina, Hurricane Andrew"). BERTRAM? There's plenty of photo evidence out there- of late model one's NOT so well built. Have I seen other boats that have fallen off jack stands? Yes, I have. I was surveying a 1939 NY 40'(model-not the length- MUCH longer)sailboat in Tarpon Springs that fell off the railway (broker told operator the draft was 6'- turned out to be 8') in 1982- and they picked her up with a crane, put her back on the railway, and she didn't even crack any ribs. Wood. Old. Just saying.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:06 AM   #45
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Looking at it again, the thin material is not the hull. The hull is underneath and has been bored for the stabilizer to fit through and a thin patch put over the whole thing on the outside. Goofy for sure. My 2 cents worth.
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:02 AM   #46
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The pictures never show the hull thickness. The glass is delaminated from the blow and the shear runs at an angle inward and away from the camera. It is impossible to tell if I'm looking at 1/4" or 2". All that is visible is the outer layer of glass. May or may not be thin but the pictures are worthless in determining the facts.
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Old 10-07-2013, 12:46 PM   #47
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Looking at it again, the thin material is not the hull. The hull is underneath and has been bored for the stabilizer to fit through and a thin patch put over the whole thing on the outside. Goofy for sure. My 2 cents worth.
Actually, looking at the photos it appears to be the hull to me. The curve of the hull, then the break, and a portion of the hull pushed inside, still attached to the stabilizer, possibly the build up block.

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The pictures never show the hull thickness. The glass is delaminated from the blow and the shear runs at an angle inward and away from the camera. It is impossible to tell if I'm looking at 1/4" or 2". All that is visible is the outer layer of glass. May or may not be thin but the pictures are worthless in determining the facts.
You are right there, no references, make it difficult for us. We need to remember that the guy taking the photos wasnt trying to build a court case, he was merely recording his observations.

Even without references... From the photos, taking the stabilizer, and other visual clues into account, the hull looks thinner than I expected.

This is not saying the hull is not strong enough, only that it is thinner than my untrained eye would have expected.
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Old 10-07-2013, 06:45 PM   #48
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Any Nordy's not return from an epic cruise because their hulls failed?
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Old 10-07-2013, 08:48 PM   #49
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Photoshop!
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Old 10-07-2013, 09:48 PM   #50
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I have no dog in this fight!

But out of curiosity, I found these comments on Nordhavn hull design which should alleviate some of the concern about the quality of their construction. It still doesn't state hull thickness, but I like their description of the layup process and willingness to supply a sample.

"In all the years Nordhavns have been crossing oceans and circling the globe, there has never been a structural hull failure, even during a grounding. The N47ís hull is no exception and is heavily built of alternate piles of hand-cut, hand-laid fiberglass mat and woven roving on a ship-like frame. Five longitudinal stringers provide added rigidity, and the forward sections include extra laminates for protection in case of collision. If you have the opportunity of visiting one of Nordhavnís offices, ask to see a sample of hull laminate. Youíll see why there has never been a failure in all these years."
"A close look at the gleaming, flawless gelcoat finish of the hull and superstructure will reveal the quality of the tooling and precise craftsmanship that has become the trademark of our P.A.E. yards. Stomp on the foredeck, and youíll feel nothing but a solid structure beneath you. Open and close hatches, doors and ports, and youíll swear youíre on a commercial cruise ship. Nothing flexes or moves unless itís supposed to. There are no unnecessary seams or joints to invite water intrusion or gelcoat cracking."
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Old 10-07-2013, 10:04 PM   #51
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Photoshop!
You're on Key Biscayne, I'm in N. Miami. Why don't we both go up to Marina Mile Boat Yard together, and ask the manager? It's been several years, and I would love to hear the definitive story with (another) witness again. Maybe they'll have photos? It was there quite awhile. While looking for the name of the yard on Marine Traffic. com- I actually see the boat in question sitting in the yard. Just proves how slow they are to update sat photos, as it was in 2009. It will give me a chance to visit Lil Red's for BBQ. What say you? Drive up to 135th St., and I'll drive us up in the 'rocket'.
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Old 10-11-2013, 06:44 PM   #52
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Today I went up to Ft. Lauderdale, and lo, and behold said vessel IS still sitting there in the Marina Mile Boat Yard. They've just moved her off to the corner under the tree's. So for all who have an interest and wish to see her with their own eyes, she's still there. And indeed I did go to Li'l Red's for BBQ, black eyes, and collard greens- and it was very GOOD!
Looking at her again, now that initial shock is gone, the hull was only cracked and shattered about 5' up, and about 5' of either side the Stabilizer fin, NOT the whole port side. Still look's the same..took more photos, but they look just like the old one's but DO have some more showing the cracks.

There's ALL kinds of nice designs is all states of disrepair in yards along State Road 84. Especially in that yard on the South side of the draw bridge. It's packed with "dream boats"-as in you must be dreaming to think you can revive them. :>) Big beautiful Fexas design and several big (BIG) trawlers.
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Old 10-12-2013, 02:23 PM   #53
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You might want to look into an MJM 40Z
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Old 10-12-2013, 04:51 PM   #54
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Today I went up to Ft. Lauderdale, and lo, and behold said vessel IS still sitting there in the Marina Mile Boat Yard. They've just moved her off to the corner under the tree's. So for all who have an interest and wish to see her with their own eyes, she's still there. And indeed I did go to Li'l Red's for BBQ, black eyes, and collard greens- and it was very GOOD!
Looking at her again, now that initial shock is gone, the hull was only cracked and shattered about 5' up, and about 5' of either side the Stabilizer fin, NOT the whole port side. Still look's the same..took more photos, but they look just like the old one's but DO have some more showing the cracks.

There's ALL kinds of nice designs is all states of disrepair in yards along State Road 84. Especially in that yard on the South side of the draw bridge. It's packed with "dream boats"-as in you must be dreaming to think you can revive them. :>) Big beautiful Fexas design and several big (BIG) trawlers.
Now I'm curious Blake...

Just how thick is the hull of the N46 in the area of the hole.

The photos were great, but without a visual reference, its hard to tell.

BTW, I'm not all that interested in the hull thickness including the pad that supported the stabilizer, its the surrounding hull thickness that I'm looking for

Thanks
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:12 PM   #55
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You're on Key Biscayne, I'm in N. Miami. Why don't we both go up to Marina Mile Boat Yard together, and ask the manager?
Hey PK: Sorry I didn't respond to your post here, but I haven't really read the thread for some days. I'm known somewhat for doing Photoshop renditions of boats here and when I do a post, I'm often suspected of Photoshopping the images even if I didn't. It was my chance to yell "Photoshop" for something I didn't do, and I took my opportunity. It was purely a joke, and frankly, I hadn't considered that someone would actually go to the trouble of modifying a photo to indicate the thickness of a hull. Anyway, I live over in Longboat Key now, so doing the visit to Marina Mile wasn't an easy trip for me. It's have been great to meet you and hit a few high spots in Lauderdale.
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Old 10-12-2013, 06:19 PM   #56
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Many posts ago I asked if this was the vessel that was damaged when it fell off the lift/stands? The question still applies, I can't believe a boat would float with a hole the size indicated by PHK.
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Old 10-12-2013, 07:27 PM   #57
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Now I'm curious Blake...

Just how thick is the hull of the N46 in the area of the hole.

The photos were great, but without a visual reference, its hard to tell.

BTW, I'm not all that interested in the hull thickness including the pad that supported the stabilizer, its the surrounding hull thickness that I'm looking for

Thanks
Kevin, Not touching this again with a 10' pole! lol. The boat is still there in the yard so others who care more than me, can go answer how thick or thin it is themselves. It's been there for several years now. So it's definitely not back in service.

>>>>>Anyway, I live over in Longboat Key now, so doing the visit to Marina Mile wasn't an easy trip for me. It's have been great to meet you and hit a few high spots in Lauderdale.<<<<<<
We'll do it some day. Was looking forward to meeting a Manatee owner. They've long been favorite boats of mine. It's always fun to go boat yard prowling with another boater. No telling what we'll stumble across. Look forward to meeting you too.

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Old 10-13-2013, 06:42 AM   #58
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>Any Nordy's not return from an epic cruise because their hulls failed?<

No but the smaller ones seem to need to go in large groups so mid ocean swimmers can make electrical repairs.

Sorta like a Harley ,a pickup ride is part of the deal.

The Nordy 40ish that was at our dock made it to Tahiti , after a years worth of new boat outfitting.

They shipped it home.
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Old 10-13-2013, 08:26 AM   #59
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That is usually about the people not the boat.
Shipping home that is.
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Old 10-13-2013, 10:57 AM   #60
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Ben they probably decided it wasn't much fun.
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