Ascension of Lithium

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I'm working on a few LiIon new build projects now. I've approached this technology cautiously, I did not embrace it like some of my author colleges, especially not for propulsion, and still don't. I can recall, 12 or 15 years ago when hybrid was all the rage, asking boat builders who were going down this path, why are you doing this, it isn't more efficient? The standard response was almost always, "Cruise ships and tug boats use it". That was the logic. All of those builders, there were only a few thankfully, found out the hard way that a yacht is not a cruise ship or tug boat. In very limited applications, hybrid propulsion afloat makes sense, but it's a narrow slice and very few are recreational. In the vast majority of cases it's a net loss when compared to a diesel, with vastly increased expense and complexity added on top of it.

So, Wes, I agree, for propulsion LiIon on boats makes little sense at this point unless you have a very large solar array (and some do, Greenline, with limitations of course, can run on solar alone), as there is no regenerative aspect.

At this stage in its life I believe LiIon has now progressed from bleeding to leading edge technology, at least within the recreational marine field.

Having recently spent three weeks aboard a 75 foot cruising vessel whose house 2000 Ah bank is LiIon, I can say it does offer a number of advantages for this application, with some caveats. After 17 hours at rest, the bank aboard this vessel was at 50%, and that included use of the induction cook top, everything in fact except HVAC. Unlike lead acid batteries, 50% is not the recharge threshold, Li Ion batteries can be depleted to 20%. Recharge time is also blinding when compared to AGM. Lifespan is multiples of lead acid banks, they weigh significantly less and because of their DoD, a smaller bank can essentially do the same work when compared to lead acid.

As I said, there are caveats, they remain very expensive, few professionals understand them or the charging systems, making retrofits, troubleshooting and repair problematic, they rely on a lot of monitoring, automatic controls and technology to remain safe, and safety is a concern as an overheated LiIon battery has a significant chance of leading to a fire. It's also worth noting, there are a number of LiIon chemestries, those used in most marine applications are, unlike cars and the B787, lithium iron phosphate (LiFePO 4).

ABYC is in the midst of writing a standard for LiIon battery installations. I know of at least two builders who have said they will go Li Ion once a standard is available.

IMO, the only way to do this with any degree of safety is by using a complete package from one manufacturer, batteries, chargers, inverters, monitoring etc. And, the installation, once complete should be inspected and approved by the manufacturer (not necessarily a dealer unless he or she is a confirmed expert in these systems, and is capable of scrutinizing the installation for flaws, been there done that).

Bottom line, a boat is not a car, diesel engines remain, with few exceptions, the best, most reliable, safest and most efficient means of propulsion for now. For house batteries, however, the industry continues to edge closer and closer to Li Ion adoption. Right now, the biggest limiting factor is price, if/when that comes down I'm pretty certain we'll see widespread adoption. Unless of course a better battery technology comes along;-)

Hi Steve, nice to hear from you.

I agree with most of what you say, but might expand on a couple of points. I think you're right, that at the current state of technology, purchasing from a reliable vendor who packages the Li cells with appropriate cell monitoring and voltage low and high protection makes the most sense for most all boaters this side of experts. However, I would disagree that one needs to replace chargers and inverters, assuming these components are adjustable to the requirements of the Li bank. The Trace 4000 I have, with Balmar 624 regulation for the alternators can be set for the requirements of this technology, which actually don't seem to be that complex. You need to be able to adjust bulk voltage and shorten the absorption time to very short, then adjust float voltage to below resting voltage to avoid overcharging. Beyond that, well I am not sure what is beyond that, as I don't think it is much of anything.

At least that is the theory, and I look forward to working with this technology, for the advantages you listed. The one that is most important to me is the degree to which these batteries can absorb current without taper. I don't like running the genset, so shortening the time it runs is a virtue, IMO.
 
So, on the subject of batteries and how they can fit into an electrical grid application...

The challenge with wind and solar energy are that they unpredictably vary their output. This creates a challenge for utility personnel that have to keep the grid running. Here's how it works. I know this from first hand experience, actually operating a power grid.

The load on the grid is very predictable. There is enough historical data and great modeliing tools so that it is known pretty darn closely how much energy is required every minute of the day.

We know that solar is going to start producing a little at daybreak and continue through out the day. What we are not so good at predicting (for non desert based systems) is just how much clouds will influence this output minute by minute.

We can predict the wind. What we cannot predict is the minute by minute fluctuation in power produced because of variations in the wind.

Keep in mind that an electrical grid has to balance generation with load on an instanious basis. There is no storage of energy in an electrical grid. Failure to keep this balance betweern load and generation results in frequency instability.

Because of this we need what we call "regulation" generation capacity that can extremely quickly increase and decrease its output. Some hydro plants can fill this need but many do not react quickly enough. In general hydro works best is we set the output and leave it alone.

Natural gas turbines can be used for regulation but the bad thing is that they only reach their optimum efficiency when run at 100% of their rated capacity. Because of this need for near instantious power they end up running generation at below the optimum loading levels, which increases the BTU required to produce the power, and reduces system efficiency. Combined cycle pants can fill this need but they are not all that quick to react either, and they have realy bad efficiency if they are not run at 100% of caacity.

Think about it like this. If you predict that during a specific hour that you will probably have your load covered with your solar and wind generation you still need to run a unit to cover the instantious fluctuations in power produced by that solar and wind generation. This is where theoretically a large inverter and battery bank could be utilized.

The renewable challenge gets worse. When the wind is not blowing and its night time there is no power available. We as an industry need a way to store that energy when for use when it is not available. This is another place where battery technology could be utilized.

Yet another place where a battery bank could be utilized is to provide generation capacity when events happen. The way we do it right now is that in any "grid" (or interconnection as it is called in the industry) there is excess generation capacity to avert a grid failure should the largest single point of failure actually trip offline. This is called "spinning reserve" this is 100% inefficient because it does nothing, unless something trips offline. This would be a great way to utilize battery banks.

This is exactly how what I think is or was the largest battery bank in North America was installed to do. The system was installed by Golden Valley Electric in Fairbanks Alaska as a way to provide short term power while additional generation was brought online.

The challenge with conventional flooded cell technology is that it has a limited number of charge/discharge cycles Hopefully battery technology will improve to a point that it makes economic sense to utilize it in electric utility applications.
 
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The load on the grid is very predictable. There is enough historical data and great modeliing tools so that it is known pretty darn closely how much energy is required every minute of the day.

Thanks. You've described the challenges of adjusting supply to a constant load. I think there are also future opportunities to have the grid manage the load, which could really help.

As an example close at hand for me, I plug my electric vehicle in to charge, typically overnight. Rarely do I need to draw full power immediately or continuously. In fact I often tell the car to delay charging until the discounted off-peak hours. I need to draw typically 15 kwh from the grid, and my maximum draw rate is 7 kw. I'm not going to use the car in the next 8 hours so there's lots of flexibility in terms of the charging strategy.

We are very close to a world in which my car would maintain a communication link with the grid, provide the basic parameters around its need, and follow instructions on when to draw and how much, essentially providing buffering on the demand side.

The proliferation of smart devices and smart homes provides similar opportunities. There is no reason why my fridge couldn't delay a cycle by a few minutes if instructed, or maybe even start a bit earlier than expected. Same with cycling electric resistance heating, domestic hot water, etc.

We can solve for this!
 
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There also has been research into having all the plugged in EVs networked and equipped for two way transfer of power. Actually feeding the grid on demand. A potential giant distributed battery. But I think that while possible it's less likely. I'd need a pretty compelling reason to participate in that, on the assumption that any cycling would have a non-trivial affect on my battery's expected life.
 
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So, on the subject of batteries and how they can fit into an electrical grid application...
The challenge with conventional flooded cell technology is that it has a limited number of charge/discharge cycles Hopefully battery technology will improve to a point that it makes economic sense to utilize it in electric utility applications.

So, Kevin, that was a great explanation of the issues encountered in maintaining supply meeting to demand, and the part battery storage systems can play in that.

I wonder if you are at all familiar with the relatively new ZCell technology, and the increasing role they might play because of their rather unique features that allow discharge down to virtually zero charge, almost unlimited numbers of charge/discharge cycles, and also the fact that the chemicals can be topped up and/or replaced. Any thoughts..?

https://www.zcell.com
https://faq.zcell.com/content/5/16/en-us/where-does-the-zcell-technology-come-from.html

A couple of medical surgery owners I know have gone down this pathway to store self-generated power via large solar set-ups, linked to Zcells, so even though still grid connected, so they will recharge off grid in times of protracted lack of sun, this has effectively set up their entire surgery premises with an un-interruptable power supply. It has worked well during several prolonger grid power outages, I understand.
Their size & cost would preclude fitting them in most of our size of boat, but definitely on for larger vessels, and their size & cost may well come down with further development, and larger sale figures.
 
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Thanks. You've described the challenges of adjusting supply to a constant load. I think there are also future opportunities to have the grid manage the load, which could really help.

As an example close at hand for me, I plug my electric vehicle in to charge, typically overnight. Rarely do I need to draw full power immediately or continuously. In fact I often tell the car to delay charging until the discounted off-peak hours. I need to draw typically 15 kwh from the grid, and my maximum draw rate is 7 kw. I'm not going to use the car in the next 8 hours so there's lots of flexibility in terms of the charging strategy.

We are very close to a world in which my car would maintain a communication link with the grid, provide the basic parameters around its need, and follow instructions on when to draw and how much, essentially providing buffering on the demand side.

The proliferation of smart devices and smart homes provides similar opportunities. There is no reason why my fridge couldn't delay a cycle by a few minutes if instructed, or maybe even start a bit earlier than expected. Same with cycling electric resistance heating, domestic hot water, etc.

We can solve for this!

Taking this and your next post where you could have local on demand generation...

While I would hope that in the future the practical technology exists to do both functions, I can say that the industry is an incredibly long ways from being able to do that.

The challenge is that in an interconnection (grid) there are areas responsible for balancing their local loads, with their energy imports and exports. All this is metered in real time, calculations are made and ther local generation is sent a value to generate to. Remember the concept od load and generation have to be equal.

Imagine how complicated that would be if we had to include everybodies local loads and local generation in the calculations. Remember we have to get it exactly right every second of every day, or we get frequency instability.

It's an interesting concept for sure, and again I hope we can someday get there.
 
So, Kevin, that was a great explanation of the issues encountered in maintaining supply meeting to demand, and the part battery storage systems can play in that.

I wonder if you are at all familiar with the relatively new ZCell technology, and the increasing role they might play because of their rather unique features that allow discharge down to virtually zero charge, almost unlimited numbers of charge/discharge cycles, and also the fact that the chemicals can be topped up and/or replaced. Any thoughts..?

https://www.zcell.com
https://faq.zcell.com/content/5/16/en-us/where-does-the-zcell-technology-come-from.html

A couple of medical surgery owners I know have gone down this pathway to store self-generated power via large solar set-ups, linked to Zcells, so even though still grid connected, so they will recharge off grid in times of protracted lack of sun, this has effectively set up their entire surgery premises with an un-interruptable power supply. It has worked well during several prolonger grid power outages, I understand.
Their size & cost would preclude fitting them in most of our size of boat, but definitely on for larger vessels, and their size & cost may well come down with further development, and larger sale figures.

I like the conceptof a battery that has those properties, and I like what the surgery centers are doing. Storing the energy will be the key to really making solar a viable solution to our power generation needs.

What we need is for these types of technology (generation and storage) to come down in cost to the level that they provide cost savinbgs over fossil fules.
 
"A potential giant distributed battery. But I think that while possible it's less likely. I'd need a pretty compelling reason to participate in that, on the assumption that any cycling would have a non-trivial affect on my battery's expected life."

With TOD (time of day) net metering you could be receiving 40c - 55ca KW on hot afternoons and recharging at 6c-8c at a KW during no load time.

Reinforcing the grid will never be a retirement plan , but the cars will have a range dial, so you can maintain what ever range you need at any time.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff F
Thanks. You've described the challenges of adjusting supply to a constant load. I think there are also future opportunities to have the grid manage the load, which could really help.

As an example close at hand for me, I plug my electric vehicle in to charge, typically overnight. Rarely do I need to draw full power immediately or continuously. In fact I often tell the car to delay charging until the discounted off-peak hours. I need to draw typically 15 kwh from the grid, and my maximum draw rate is 7 kw. I'm not going to use the car in the next 8 hours so there's lots of flexibility in terms of the charging strategy.

We are very close to a world in which my car would maintain a communication link with the grid, provide the basic parameters around its need, and follow instructions on when to draw and how much, essentially providing buffering on the demand side.

The proliferation of smart devices and smart homes provides similar opportunities. There is no reason why my fridge couldn't delay a cycle by a few minutes if instructed, or maybe even start a bit earlier than expected. Same with cycling electric resistance heating, domestic hot water, etc.

We can solve for this!


Taking this and your next post where you could have local on demand generation...
While I would hope that in the future the practical technology exists to do both functions, I can say that the industry is an incredibly long ways from being able to do that.

The challenge is that in an interconnection (grid) there are areas responsible for balancing their local loads, with their energy imports and exports. All this is metered in real time, calculations are made and ther local generation is sent a value to generate to. Remember the concept od load and generation have to be equal.

Imagine how complicated that would be if we had to include everybodies local loads and local generation in the calculations. Remember we have to get it exactly right every second of every day, or we get frequency instability.

It's an interesting concept for sure, and again I hope we can someday get there.

In response to posts above: Think "Heat Sinks"... for electric power equalization regarding continued turbine use during reduced daylight cycle time and solar energy down turn weather conditions.
 
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Taking this and your next post where you could have local on demand generation...

While I would hope that in the future the practical technology exists to do both functions, I can say that the industry is an incredibly long ways from being able to do that.

The challenge is that in an interconnection (grid) there are areas responsible for balancing their local loads, with their energy imports and exports. All this is metered in real time, calculations are made and ther local generation is sent a value to generate to. Remember the concept od load and generation have to be equal.

Imagine how complicated that would be if we had to include everybodies local loads and local generation in the calculations. Remember we have to get it exactly right every second of every day, or we get frequency instability.

It's an interesting concept for sure, and again I hope we can someday get there.

I have zero practical knowledge on this. But as a techie I have some interest and experience in networks of various sorts. Lots of complex highly decentralized networks out there - think internet :)

Seems to me that we've already gotten over a hump with current net metering capabilities. Grid management has to look different today than it did ten years ago. Real time communication between all the nodes is feasible these days. And computers are very good at managing complicated calculations.

Again, just observations from a casual observer.
 
Regarding the ZCell zinc bromine battery...there always has to be a catch (although this one may be a mere annoyance considering the benefits gained):

The ZBM core module inside ZCell needs to periodically undertake a cycle where it discharges 100% of the energy held in the battery (ideally by supplying this energy to power on-site loads).

In doing so, it must (at the end of this process) also spend around two hours offline while completing the maintenance cycle, before it is able to return to normal operation.

This process removes 100% of the zinc that has been deposited inside the electrode stack of the battery during normal battery operating cycles and returns that zinc into the zinc-bromide electrolyte fluid.

At the end of each such cycle, ZCell is 'as good as new' again - and indeed this is the key to the long life and resilient operation of the ZCell battery.

.....

The frequency at which the maintenance cycle must be performed varies, depending upon how actively ZCell is being used; The less actively it is being used, the less often the maintence has to be performed (and vice versa).

If the battery typically undertakes a 100% charge / 100% discharge cycle every day, the maintenance cycle needs to be undertaken every 3 - 4 days.

If the battery is being exercised less 'hard' (charged and discharged less frequently in aggregate), this maintenance cycle can potentially be deferred for longer periods.

.............

It is preferable to configure the system so that self-maintenance is triggered when the battery is at, or near, a 0% state of charge. This minimises the extent to which any remaining energy in the battery may (in the worst-case) need to be discarded as a part of the maintenance process.

The maintenance process is configured by selecting one or more days per week in which self-maintenance may be performed.

You must nominate at least one day per week, per ZCell, for this process.

On each selected day, the time of day is then nominated as your choice of:

Fixed time of day
Time relative to today's sunrise
Time relative to today's sunset
...............

It is possible (as an alternative choice) to configure the BMS to perform self maintenance at the end of every battery full discharge cycle. This can be preferable in some situations (where the battery is always being 100% deep-cycled, and hence when there are frequently points in the usage cycle of the battery when it is empty anyway).


Note: The underlying driver toward the maintenance cycle being necessary in the next nominated maintenance time window is the cumulative total time the battery spends actively charging or discharging energy. Time spent with the battery idle - not charging and not discharging (at any battery state of charge) counts only marginally toward the need to trigger a maintenance cycle.

.......

We fully appreciate that this maintenance cycle can present a challenge for some use-cases for ZCell, especially in a single-battery scenario. The need to undertake this cycle is a core characteristic of the current ZBM design and it is necessary in order to ensure long battery life and to avoid the potential for battery damage.

Redflow is researching mechanisms that may extend the period between maintenance cycles further in the future.

Redflow is also researching potential future model designs that could reduce or eliminate the external impacts of this maintenance cycle.

For the time being, however, it is simply a core characteristic of this technology that needs to be accommodated in energy system designs using this battery.
https://faq.zcell.com/content/9/50/en-us/working-with-the-periodic-zcell-self_maintenance-cycle.html
 
Re: post #101...infrared sauna to reach 0%? :D
 
With TOD (time of day) net metering you could be receiving 40c - 55ca KW on hot afternoons and recharging at 6c-8c at a KW during no load time.

Reinforcing the grid will never be a retirement plan , but the cars will have a range dial, so you can maintain what ever range you need at any time.

Yup. There were a couple of schemes for battery swapping for electric vehicles that didn't really get off the ground. Keep a big inventory on the rack, swap out discharged for charged in a few minutes in the bay. An important part of the business cases was the revenue from TOD pricing using the inventory. Pretty cool concept. But given the existing range concerns and self-interest of most individual owners I suspect that few would participate now. That could change in the future as the cars become more accepted and integrated into society.
 
Why bother. You are inflexibly position bound, which results in every argument you make to originate from a position of fear and unable to empathically adopt another's viewpoint in order to learn or broaden your own view.

Let me see if I can set you straight in just a few words:

The function of government is to serve the people, not the other way around. Functions of government include national defense, police and fire services, infrastructure such a roads and bridges and K-12 education.

Functions of government DO NOT include telling citizens how to think or what toilets and lightbulbs they are allowed to buy.

If people want to buy and drive electric cars, that's fine but it is NOT the function of government to subsidize them with taxpayer's money.
 
Let me see if I can set you straight in just a few words:

The function of government is to serve the people, not the other way around. Functions of government include national defense, police and fire services, infrastructure such a roads and bridges and K-12 education.

That was very clearly stated. It is not an uncommon viewpoint in the US.
 
That's a very touchy-feely sentiment but its patent nonsense. There is virtually nothing you can do without government oversight. Name something or some activity that you can do with total freedom? That is unless you go out in the woods somewhere and live in a cave? You can still do that but anywhere that people overlap there is very little, if any, freedom.
 
"it is NOT the function of government to subsidize them with taxpayer's money."

Agreed , but since "Social Security " in the 1930's the politicos have discovered folks LOVE !!! OPM (other peoples money).

Enslaving their kids and grand kids with billions of debt , is fine , if they get OPM.

The usual collapse of a valueless currency , is no longer allowed to be tought in Skool.
 
And once people are given "OPM", it's almost impossible to take it away from them.


BTW: I paid into Social Security for over 40 years so I don't look at it as "OPM". It's my money with interest.
 
BTW: I paid into Social Security for over 40 years so I don't look at it as "OPM". It's my money with interest.

You can look at it any way you want, but you are smart enough to know that is not what it is.
 
......... There is virtually nothing you can do without government oversight. ..........

Oversight is not the same as taking my tax money and giving it to my neighbor to subsidize his electric car. Oversight might be licensing plumbers and electricians to make sure they know what they are doing and don't kill you. In that sense, "oversight" is good and part of a government's mission of protecting its citizens.

Let's look at an example: You own a chain of gas stations and you pay taxes on your profits. The government takes your tax money and gives it to people to subsidize the production of electric cars and also uses it to provide low cost or free electricity for electric cars. They are using your tax money to take customers away from your business.

Does that sound like good government?
 
They do that a lot. How about paying farmers to not grow corn to keep the supply controlled to keep prices up? Or paying farmers to grow corn to make into ethanol which is a useless fuel and costs too much at the pump so you are essentially paying more for the fuel you have to buy; in Canada it drives the tax up so your friendly government gets more revenue. Its very nice to shout "freedom" and "live free or die" but its all (very) relative and very elusive.

It would be more useful to complain about how much taxes you are paying rather than complain how they are spent - if they didn't have so much of our money to throw around they would have to be more careful with it.
 
Could increasing lithium battery production affect availability of lithium carbonate?
 
Z cells might become interesting. Recently I saw a statement that they cannot compete with lithium on price. Given that they are also bulky and heavy, then they have quite some way to go. The company is is the process of raising capital. I hope they can get their battery cost down, I could live with their other drawbacks.
 
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Isn`t this thread about batteries? Good grief, what is going on?
Keep this up and those with an interest in the subject will lose out as the infected mess moves to OTDE.
 
Isn`t this thread about batteries? Good grief, what is going on?
Keep this up and those with an interest in the subject will lose out as the infected mess moves to OTDE.

Some people fear political, demographic, or economic change (or the perceived threats of misunderstood world views other than their own) and are quick to subvert any conversation in an attempt to spread those fears. About as hard to ignore as a fart in an elevator, but we'd all be better off if it was just ignored.
 
Isn`t this thread about batteries? Good grief, what is going on?
Keep this up and those with an interest in the subject will lose out as the infected mess moves to OTDE.

Good point. Sadly that move is looming unless the thread takes a less political direction. :facepalm:
 
Good point. Sadly that move is looming unless the thread takes a less political direction. :facepalm:

Can you spank the instigator(s) and ban him (them) from a thread?
 
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"Can you spank the instigator(s) and ban him (them) from a thread?"

KILL them All, let GOD Sort them out?

Thread growth is part of internet discourse , try anchors.
 
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