Ascension of Lithium

[MurrayM]

"Can you spank the instigator(s) and ban him (them) from a thread?"

KILL them All, let GOD Sort them out?

Thread growth is part of internet discourse , try anchors.

Cancer is growth as well...

Some people fear political, demographic, or economic change (or the perceived threats of misunderstood world views other than their own) and are quick to subvert any conversation in an attempt to spread those fears. About as hard to ignore as a fart in an elevator, but we'd all be better off if it was just ignored.

 

[sunchaser]

Could increasing lithium battery production affect availability of lithium carbonate?

My G2 says supply will fill the void quickly. The primary concern for the suppliers is to manage over supply concerns with long term contracts which users are loathe to do.

Lithium mineral deposits are not rare, but sporadic short supplies can be caused by delays in bringing new production to market. Tesla's and Munk's grand plans not withstanding, the Li battery storage business is for real, and longer term Li supply strategies well funded.

Promoters are having good times in this resource sector, with scarcity articles easily found. The brine deposits hosting Li minerals are well understood, time to market always an issue, thus good forecasts at a premium.

 

[rwidman]

While I would love to be able to replace my $1200+, 300 lb 400 AH house bank with a single or two lithium batteries with the same or more output at a reasonable price, it doesn't seem like the industry is there yet or is anywhere close.

Two guys at a boat show a couple years ago were trying to get me onboard but I am not one to be an "early adopter" so I passed on them. I haven't seen a lot about actual lithium batteries on actual boats since then so I think I made the right decision.

When I see them going into production boats, I'll consider them. Or if a manufacturer wants to supply them to me for free for evaluation.

 

[Art]

At bottom of this post is link to a pro-positive electric car review. As described in the article electric cars [although (for manufacturing reasons) will always have a substantial Carbon Positive footprint] are currently and will continue to be “Ecologically Greener” than cars [with combustion engines] that utilize/burn heavily Carbon Positive refined fossil fuels for propellants.

Regarding all vehicles [including – cars, trucks, boats, planes, motorcycles, ships… etc; as well as generators, lawn mowers, chain saws and all other combustion engine apparatus] to become Carbon Neutral during all times of use [which would make a Very Green Footprint] there is only one way known whose production is at the doorstep of humanity’s ongoing journey for advancement while helping to keep our Mother Earth ecologically alive and its annual climate-productive seasons intact.

That is:

Solar power based Direct Air Capture [DAC] of Carbon Dioxide out of atmosphere and then CO2’s solar power based alteration into fungible, drop-in gasoline, diesel and jet fuels. This process enables the establishment of a new, considerably clean, Carbon Neutral Full-Cycle fuel source that works with Earth’s atmosphere rather than against it.

In simplified description, this new solar powered Full-Cycle source of creating Liquid Carbon Neutral Fuels… goes like this:

1. Separate [capture] certain percentage of CO2 out of the heavily overloaded CO2 rich atmosphere; i.e. CO2 “Direct Air Capture” [DAC]
2. Change captured CO2 into Syngas
3. Change Syngas into gasoline, diesel, jet fuels that are fungible and drop-in ready to be mixed with refined fossil fuels and/or ethanol fuels and that work in any combustion engine
4. Millions/billions of combustion engines burn the Full-Cycle, Carbon Neutral new source fuels and emit CO2 back into atmosphere
5. CO2 is again separated from atmosphere and again made into gasoline, diesel, jet fuels that are fungible and drop-in ready to be mixed with refined fossil fuels and/or ethanol fuels and that will work in any combustion engine

This constitutes a No New Carbon Footprint from this new source of Full-Cycle Carbon Neutral fuel. This Carbon Neutral liquid hydrocarbon fuel source has ample CO2 [to be used as its manufacturing base-product] already in the atmosphere that will last as the primary new fuel source ingredient into the 21st Century… and beyond.

It would take pages to describe what I say here in one sentence: With “Full Cycle” technology that changes atmospheric based CO2 into liquid hydrocarbon fuels, and with Earth’s natural sequestration processes, and with the amount of fossil fuels still underground… there is ample opportunity for this Carbon Neutral new source fuel to last for centuries into our future.


Here is link to a pro-positive electric car review I mentioned at top of this post:

The ‘electric cars aren’t green’ myth debunked</SPAN>


http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green

 

[Delfin]

While I would love to be able to replace my $1200+, 300 lb 400 AH house bank with a single or two lithium batteries with the same or more output at a reasonable price, it doesn't seem like the industry is there yet or is anywhere close.

Two guys at a boat show a couple years ago were trying to get me onboard but I am not one to be an "early adopter" so I passed on them. I haven't seen a lot about actual lithium batteries on actual boats since then so I think I made the right decision.

When I see them going into production boats, I'll consider them. Or if a manufacturer wants to supply them to me for free for evaluation.

As someone else said, Li marine applications have moved from bleeding edge to leading edge, so yes, the industry is there even if the technology certainly doesn't apply to everyone. If you spend most of your time at the dock; if you don't have programmable charging sources; if you aren't going to keep your boat long; if you don't use much energy when at anchor; if you like the sound of a genset running - if these describe your cruising life, then Li batteries don't have much allure.

However, on a cost per cycle they are the cheapest battery I know of and if some or all of the above don't apply to you, then they make a lot of sense.

 

[rwidman]

As someone else said, Li marine applications have moved from bleeding edge to leading edge, so yes, the industry is there even if the technology certainly doesn't apply to everyone. If you spend most of your time at the dock; if you don't have programmable charging sources; if you aren't going to keep your boat long; if you don't use much energy when at anchor; if you like the sound of a genset running - if these describe your cruising life, then Li batteries don't have much allure.

However, on a cost per cycle they are the cheapest battery I know of and if some or all of the above don't apply to you, then they make a lot of sense.

OK, point me to a source. I will probably have to replace my house bank before next spring. And I want a reliable, turn key system, I don't want to experiment.

I haven't seen them around and I don't know of any production boat manufacturer that is using them.

 

[dhays]

OK, point me to a source. I will probably have to replace my house bank before next spring. And I want a reliable, turn key system, I don't want to experiment.

I haven't seen them around and I don't know of any production boat manufacturer that is using them.

I think the key here is what you said, "And I want a reliable, turn key system, I don't want to experiment."

Tell me the batteries to get, the charger/inverter to get, the alternator controller to get etc.... and know they were all designed to work together. Tell much up front what the total cost will be and an estimated life expectancy. Then I can decide if it makes sense.

Partly because of that, I decided to stay with well known battery technology that would take advantage of my current systems. Even then there were lots of options.

 

[Delfin]

OK, point me to a source. I will probably have to replace my house bank before next spring. And I want a reliable, turn key system, I don't want to experiment.

I haven't seen them around and I don't know of any production boat manufacturer that is using them.

https://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/ope-li3-marine-lithium-battery-systems/

Bruce Schwab's site has lots of information available.

He buys his batteries from Lithionics, who is where I got mine.

Lithionics | Lithionics Battery | Advanced Lithium Ion Batteries

Somewhere on these sites is a calculation on cost per cycle, but the math isn't hard. LiFePO4 batteries will deliver around 3,000 cycles at 60% discharge (35,000 at 10% discharge) and charge up 4 times faster. So take the cost of running your genset, cut it by 75%, divide the cost of the battery by the number of cycles, add the two together and compare the same number to LA batteries. The Li batteries always win, but you may have to live to be 185 before you wear them out and get the full benefit, depending on your usage.

For me, not listening to the genset running while trying to top off LA batteries is a big plus, but may not be to everyone.

 

[Xsbank]

I am a denier. 1 ton of carbon dioxide is in 2 million cubic feet of air. Extracting CO2 from the air has to be very energy-intensive (.04% of air is CO2, on average). The best transport in cities is electric trams or buses yet the most we can get out of our exalted leaders is bicycle lanes. I like the forward-thinking but I think man-caused climate change is pure hooey.

However, I have a set of solar panels arriving today for the boat with cables, controllers etc. and I am going to try and run off-grid. Baby steps. Battery technology is exciting but only if its not a huge cost. Batteries are background, necessary but merely a step in the process. Yes, they need to be better but who thinks of the transformers in a power grid? Necessary but in the background. So unless the cost is there, the good old lead-acid battery works and is hard to beat. Buying batteries that last for years when most of us will have abandoned boating or dropped dead - cost again.

We are only on this mortal coil for the briefest of tiniest time and then in 100 years we are all forgotten. The Earth will spin along as it always has, until it doesn't. All we can do in our time is to make our stay more pleasant for us and everyone else on here. If you want a perspective on our stay on this planet and how important each of us is to the grand scheme of things, visit the Paris catacombs... sorry, MY photos are correct.

 

[rwidman]

https://www.bruceschwab.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/ope-li3-marine-lithium-battery-systems/

Bruce Schwab's site has lots of information available.

He buys his batteries from Lithionics, who is where I got mine.

Lithionics | Lithionics Battery | Advanced Lithium Ion Batteries

Somewhere on these sites is a calculation on cost per cycle, but the math isn't hard. LiFePO4 batteries will deliver around 3,000 cycles at 60% discharge (35,000 at 10% discharge) and charge up 4 times faster. So take the cost of running your genset, cut it by 75%, divide the cost of the battery by the number of cycles, add the two together and compare the same number to LA batteries. The Li batteries always win, but you may have to live to be 185 before you wear them out and get the full benefit, depending on your usage.

For me, not listening to the genset running while trying to top off LA batteries is a big plus, but may not be to everyone.

We have to start by understanding that I don't have a genset on my boat. I have a 400 AH house bank of AGM batteries and another one as a starting battery. My batteries are charged by shore power or running the boat each day. My primary heavy use is running a microwave with an inverter for several minutes per day. Other uses are lights, a TV set, anchor light and the GPS all night for the anchor drag alarm.

The "cycles" component is hard or impossible to calculate because each draw down is different as is each charging cycle.

Cost is less important (within reason) than meeting my needs. The current bank barely meets my needs now but they are five years old and have been run down flat a couple of times during their lifetime.

 

[Art]

I am a denier.

Avatar attests to that! :lol:

 

[Xsbank]

Thank you Art! I suppose if the avatar is so expressive I can stop talking? In addition to being a denier, I also need crowds with torches and pitchforks and maybe a bit of tar to convince me that we aren't on an inevitable path of total destruction for mankind, but then I'm all in favour of making me and my family happy.

I just bought a microwave, its the same as the one that just baked (Kitchenaid, they turn on capriciously and run until they catch fire, which is a nuisance) and the new one is half the weight, the inspection panels have one screw which you remove, then bend the sheet metal back, a great move forward in engineering prowess. Every city has a huge steaming pile of dead microwaves, toaster, kettles, washing machines etc etc. How could anyone participating in this atrocity waste their time fussing about carbon? Fundamental changes are required to our entire way of life and it largely begins with birth control. There are just too damn many of us clustered here on this planet - we have broken limbs and the application is corn plasters.

99% of the motivation for any of these so-called improvements is for somebody's greed, because if there is one thing that is a constant in humans, its greed.

I bought two - 300 watt panels and an Outback MPPT controller (Arlington Washington, I'd have guessed Sydney...) complete with a breaker box and a bunch of cable-things and I'm very excited about starting the installation today. You will be pleased by my silence, just as I will be by not having to run my genset much anymore! Woohoo progress!

Of course, all these improvements will be obsolete in 5 years and will end up in the landfill, but then so will I, hopefully not as soon.

 

[Art]

Thank you Art! I suppose if the avatar is so expressive I can stop talking? .

OMG - Don't get that serious!

 

[dhays]

Somewhere on these sites is a calculation on cost per cycle, but the math isn't hard. LiFePO4 batteries will deliver around 3,000 cycles at 60% discharge (35,000 at 10% discharge) and charge up 4 times faster. So take the cost of running your genset, cut it by 75%, divide the cost of the battery by the number of cycles, add the two together and compare the same number to LA batteries. The Li batteries always win, but you may have to live to be 185 before you wear them out and get the full benefit, depending on your usage.

I am not sure how the LiFePO4 batteries are to be charged (was I not paying attention?). To be that much faster it would need to be more than simply a higher charge acceptance rate during the constant current phase of charging. Somehow they much magically reduce the absorb and float charging times as well.

Having a very high CAR is great, and can reduce your charging time a lot, but only if your charger puts out that many amps. Mine tops out at 125amps. So to take advantage of that I would definitely need a new charger. The cost of that need to be factored in as well.

 

[dhays]

I bought two - 300 watt panels and an Outback MPPT controller (Arlington Washington, I'd have guessed Sydney...) complete with a breaker box and a bunch of cable-things and I'm very excited about starting the installation today. You will be pleased by my silence, just as I will be by not having to run my genset much anymore! Woohoo progress!

I'll be curious to see how that goes. I'd like to do the same next year, but am still at the hopelessly confused phase.

 

[Benthic2]

Regarding matching electric power generation supply and demand.... We do have smart systems that allow the power companies to regulate how much power is needed by controlling the end users needs via smart meters, smart thermostats, and lighting controls. In some places the power company can adjust your thermostat so your air conditioning needs less power if there is a demand spike.

 

[Xsbank]

Good point, my understanding is that the charge rate does not diminish as resistance rises so rather than getting 80% of the charge in an hour or so, then 3 or 4 hours for the final, lithium batteries take the full charge all the way to full, say 2 hours. Then, as noted, you have to be careful to not overcharge them.

I quite like the idea of fuel cells that run for 24 hours with a lower charge rate but I cant get past the idea of special fuel in proprietary containers. That's lose/lose for fuel cells. Plus the silly initial cost which might reflect r&d but not the value of the device.

 

[rwidman]

I am not sure how the LiFePO4 batteries are to be charged (was I not paying attention?). To be that much faster it would need to be more than simply a higher charge acceptance rate during the constant current phase of charging. Somehow they much magically reduce the absorb and float charging times as well.

Having a very high CAR is great, and can reduce your charging time a lot, but only if your charger puts out that many amps. Mine tops out at 125amps. So to take advantage of that I would definitely need a new charger. The cost of that need to be factored in as well.

And that's why I mentioned "turn key". A package (or installation) that includes the appropriate alternator and shore power charger and any required control system.

 

[Delfin]

We have to start by understanding that I don't have a genset on my boat. I have a 400 AH house bank of AGM batteries and another one as a starting battery. My batteries are charged by shore power or running the boat each day. My primary heavy use is running a microwave with an inverter for several minutes per day. Other uses are lights, a TV set, anchor light and the GPS all night for the anchor drag alarm.

The "cycles" component is hard or impossible to calculate because each draw down is different as is each charging cycle.

Cost is less important (within reason) than meeting my needs. The current bank barely meets my needs now but they are five years old and have been run down flat a couple of times during their lifetime.

If all you carry is a loaf of bread, you don't need a pickup truck, and like I said, if you spend most of your time at a dock you don't need batteries designed to be re-charged very quickly while having a very long life since you have a constant charge source that will presumably keep up with needs.

 

[rwidman]

If all you carry is a loaf of bread, you don't need a pickup truck, and like I said, if you spend most of your time at a dock you don't need batteries designed to be re-charged very quickly while having a very long life since you have a constant charge source that will presumably keep up with needs.

When cruising, I need to be able to anchor and use my microwave and other electrical equipment. It doesn't really matter that I spend a lot of time at the dock, what matters is when I'm not at a dock.

Perhaps I did not make that clear previously.

 

[Delfin]

I am not sure how the LiFePO4 batteries are to be charged (was I not paying attention?). To be that much faster it would need to be more than simply a higher charge acceptance rate during the constant current phase of charging. Somehow they much magically reduce the absorb and float charging times as well.

Having a very high CAR is great, and can reduce your charging time a lot, but only if your charger puts out that many amps. Mine tops out at 125amps. So to take advantage of that I would definitely need a new charger. The cost of that need to be factored in as well.

However much your charging system puts out, when comparing LiFePO4 batteries to LA, you will spend about 1/4 of the time charging. If you're at the dock, who cares? If you are at anchor and like the sound of a genset, who cares? Otherwise, they have merit.

If you have a larger charge source, they will accept high levels of current without tapering like LA batteries, but even with a smaller charging source, they will still save a lot of genset time. This is because they have very low internal resistance, so accept whatever you throw at them. You charge at around 28-29 volts, absorption time is a few minutes because when they reach the target voltage they are about full and unlike LA batteries don't need the taper charge of the float setting. Not magic, just chemistry.

 

[Delfin]

When cruising, I need to be able to anchor and use my microwave and other electrical equipment. It doesn't really matter that I spend a lot of time at the dock, what matters is when I'm not at a dock.

Perhaps I did not make that clear previously.

Then, depending on how much time you spend at anchor and how long you run between anchoring, they might make sense. The below might help....

 

[john61ct]

I am not sure how the LiFePO4 batteries are to be charged (was I not paying attention?). To be that much faster it would need to be more than simply a higher charge acceptance rate during the constant current phase of charging. Somehow they much magically reduce the absorb and float charging times as well.

That's lead thinking.

Bulk transition to Absorb (CC to CV) isn't something a charger does, and for longevity LFP not only don't need to be but in fact **should not** be filled all the way. So best would be a charge source that allowed just Stopping when amps decline to 1-2% of AH capacity.

Failing that Float should be set to below the bank's resting voltage, which should result in no further current flow.

Also, since there is no need to get to Full, you can just stop charging when say the water is made or dishes and laundry done, whatever's convenient.

Having a very high CAR is great, and can reduce your charging time a lot, but only if your charger puts out that many amps. Mine tops out at 125amps. So to take advantage of that I would definitely need a new charger. The cost of that need to be factored in as well.

Yes, and there are few charge sources outside solar that allow you to precisely control voltage setpoints, which is also important.

People buying/replacing such equipment should IMO ensure it is future-proof even if they don't intend to buy LFP now.

 

[dhays]

Thanks John, that helps me understand it a bit more.

I am a long way from ever going to LFP batteries but I do find the topic interesting.

 

[CMS]

So best would be a charge source that allowed just Stopping when amps decline to 1-2% of AH capacity.

A charge source can only allow the current to drop to 1-2% of Ah capacity in CV mode. With LFP, once CV is attained, & this happens in as little as 2-40 minutes depending upon charge rate, the current can then begin to taper.. LFP still tapers just MUCH, MUCH faster...

With LFP just like LA, the higher the charge rate, and lower the max voltage set point, the longer the absorption time will be, but it is still horse and buggy vs. Porsche differences.

Yes, and there are few charge sources outside solar that allow you to precisely control voltage setpoints, which is also important.

One mistake folks often make is that it's not just voltage set points but CV duration that is most critical.

For example you may find a charger that allows you to set it at 13.8V/27.6V but it has a fixed 1 hour, 2 hour or 4 hour absorption. This = BAD

With LFP you need to be able to set a maximum CV/absorption duration as well as voltage. Voltage & duration go hand in hand. Voltage only is not enough control unless you plan to manually manipulate & monitor it.....

 

[john61ct]

A charge source can only allow the current to drop to 1-2% of Ah capacity in CV mode.

Well just like the CC-CV transition, it's the bank chemistry causing the amps dropping, not the charger, right?

One mistake folks often make is that it's not just voltage set points but CV duration that is most critical.

For example you may find a charger that allows you to set it at 13.8V/27.6V but it has a fixed 1 hour, 2 hour or 4 hour absorption. This = BAD

With LFP you need to be able to set a maximum CV/absorption duration as well as voltage.

Yes, with lead, you need to ensure the charger doesn't **end** Absorb too early, while with LFP that's not a problem, you want to ensure it doesn't go on **too long**.

If a charge source doesn't give good options there perhaps could work around with a good shunt Battery Monitor with a relay, set to disconnect/divert the charge source at X SoC, say 95%?

 

[mike66]

So let me show my ignorance. We have tools with batteries that are charged by cheap wall chargers. What is different about these other than size and capacity? I read the articles with charge curves, etc., so I guess it's a lot more complicated, but it seems that all that can be handled by a cheap chip coupled with appropriate sensors for voltage and temperature. Is it just a lack of manufacturing demand at this point for some company to bring a developed solution to the marine and rv market?

 

[CMS]

So let me show my ignorance. We have tools with batteries that are charged by cheap wall chargers. What is different about these other than size and capacity? I read the articles with charge curves, etc., so I guess it's a lot more complicated, but it seems that all that can be handled by a cheap chip coupled with appropriate sensors for voltage and temperature. Is it just a lack of manufacturing demand at this point for some company to bring a developed solution to the marine and rv market?

Difference is that the charger on your power tools or phone is specifically designed to charge those batteries and only those batteries. These cells are also very small, and require minimal charge current, so the cost appears to be low because volume high.

It's not difficult to build a matched battery & charger as paired units that communicate together. All the tool makers & phone makers have slightly different approaches as to how they do this. Some choose to push the cells closer to the limit (Samsung for example) in favor of run time, but in the end they give up longevity and others are much more conservative and get closer to the cycle life the cell maker intends but the ultimate minutes of run time are often less.

On a boat we are attempting to adapt preexisting lead acid charging sources to LFP, and we have multiple charge sources, wind, solar, hydro, fuel cell, alternator, charger, inverter/charger etc. to deal with. Much, much more difficult to do safely and with the ultimate cycle life.

Many of these sources can not simply be "open circuited" by a BMS when the bank is deemed full because you'll create a voltage transient that can destroy not only the charge source but if the system is not wired properly, as in a dual-bus, then you can also destroy on-board electronics too...

Huge difference between charging a 400Ah - 800Ah LFP bank with multiple sources and charging a 1Ah to 5Ah +/- tool battery that is only ever charged by one specific charger & that charger was designed specifically for that battery.

When you look at the actual cell cost of the cells in these tool batteries you'll quickly realize that these batteries and chargers are anything but inexpensive..... Last year I re-built one of my brothers Li power tool batteries. The Li battery sells for $129.00 and had it had less than $14.00 worth of Sanyo 18650 cells in it, and I am not buying these cells direct from Sanyo in container quantities.

 

[dhays]

Thanks Rod and John. I am always learning lots from you guys.

 

[Delfin]

A charge source can only allow the current to drop to 1-2% of Ah capacity in CV mode. With LFP, once CV is attained, & this happens in as little as 2-40 minutes depending upon charge rate, the current can then begin to taper.. LFP still tapers just MUCH, MUCH faster...

With LFP just like LA, the higher the charge rate, and lower the max voltage set point, the longer the absorption time will be, but it is still horse and buggy vs. Porsche differences.





One mistake folks often make is that it's not just voltage set points but CV duration that is most critical.

For example you may find a charger that allows you to set it at 13.8V/27.6V but it has a fixed 1 hour, 2 hour or 4 hour absorption. This = BAD

With LFP you need to be able to set a maximum CV/absorption duration as well as voltage. Voltage & duration go hand in hand. Voltage only is not enough control unless you plan to manually manipulate & monitor it.....

Lithionics explained that the reason they recommended 29 vdc for bulk charging was that this was the point at which the BMS would balance the cells. At that voltage they recommend 18 minutes absorption. I explained that I would prefer not to exceed 28 vdc per your recommendations and they said that was fine, but just run them up to 29 v "once a month" to trigger balancing. Fair enough, and easy to do with my charging sources, but my question is what would you recommend for duration of absorption at 28 v, which I can set at any value? I guess I can discover that myself by seeing how long at CV it takes for the current to drop to 15 amps or so (600 amp bank), but I would greatly appreciate your thoughts.