Yet Another AGM to Lithium Upgrade

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Exactly. Your batteries are sitting at 100% all the time. Lithium doesn't like that without being cycled.

80% Is something like 3.32 or ~13.3v. They would be happier there or a little less if they are sitting long term.
 
With respect, I cannot work with theories. My batteries were new built in the last 3 years, there is no test done on them on what would be better. I am follow battery manufacturer instructions, none say do not float.
2.5 years old now and I see no difference in performance. If they last another 2.5 years I can write them off and get the latest new ones.
 
I have read from respected sources (one being Rodd Collins) that LFP batteries do not like to be continuously floated. In other words, you turn on the shore charger, set the float to 13.5, and then drive home for three weeks. So the LFP bank just sits actively floating day after day while you are gone.

I didn't get the feeling from reading the article that it would instantly kill them - nothing that dramatic. But that it's not good for them, so don't do it. Just change the settings so that doesn't happen (no big sacrifice).
 
I have read from respected sources (one being Rodd Collins) that LFP batteries do not like to be continuously floated. In other words, you turn on the shore charger, set the float to 13.5, and then drive home for three weeks. So the LFP bank just sits actively floating day after day while you are gone.

I didn't get the feeling from reading the article that it would instantly kill them - nothing that dramatic. But that it's not good for them, so don't do it. Just change the settings so that doesn't happen (no big sacrifice).
Curious what you have for settings if you are gone for three weeks.
 
SteveK said:
"Curious what you have for settings if you are gone for three weeks."

Well, I don't typically do exactly that (leave for three weeks), but I can tell you what I do do, and maybe that will be of use to you.

Edited to add: Now that I review, I think scenario #3 is probably closest to what you are asking about. If I'm on a longer distance trip, and maybe I stop at a friend's place for a week or two, then that's basically like leaving the boat for three weeks. It's just sitting there without me on it, and may have loads running. So see #3.

1) Boat on trailer in storage.
Charging off, loads off except for brief usage of lights or whatever while I'm puttering. If it's not going to be in storage for long, I just leave the battery at the 100% it would naturally be when arriving home (solar charging on highway). Then I can use all the small loads I want when puttering or whatever. As long as it stays between 100% and 50% SOC, I don't even think about it.

2) Longer term storage, or if the storage would be warmer temp than I'd like for the battery(s):
I charge the battery(s) to 100% and let them do their full balancing (tho they pretty much stay balanced but still seems like a good idea), then draw them back down to around 75% SOC, disconnect them from everything, and bring them into an air-conditioned space. They are just fine for many months (up to 1 year, according to mfgr).

3) Towing and maybe visiting a friend for a 2-3 weeks (so I guess that's maybe closest to your question as the boat is basically just sitting there).

I'll go one of three ways, depending on the situation (do I have my fridge running or not, is it sunny or not, is it below freezing or not, etc.).

a) Turn off charges and loads.
b) Turn off charges but keep loads running.
c) Turn off loads but keep charges running (this would just be solar in this situation).

3) If I'm on the boat and I need full use of the battery (all the amp hours), I set the float to 13.5 That way basically any power I used after the bank is fully charged but while the sun is still out "doesn't count" (IOW bank will be fully charged at sundown).

4) If I'm on the boat and times are "fat" (meaning I'm hitting 100% every morning), then I could reduce the float or charge settings, but what I usually do is just disable one of my charging sources (solar or alternator). That's quick and easy to do and then I typically run between 60% and 85% SOC. That seems to be a happy place for LFP bank.

I most often just turn the Orion (alternator charging) off. If I can stay in a good SOC range without it, why not? I mean, I don't think it's making a huge difference, but when I turn it on the engine RPM's do decrease slightly, so it's obviously some amount of load on the engine. Vs. solar just does its thing at no "cost." But I put that switch right next to me at the helm when underway, so easy to change at will.

With the above methods (controlling charge sources) I don't typically change my charge settings, though if I wanted to, I could change float to say 13.2, or possibly set absorb a bit lower (I already lowered it.... I can't remember now if that was to 14.2 or 14.0). I might have changed the absorb time to 1 hour from the standard 2, but I can't remember for sure (sadly, it's winter, so charges and loads are both turned off for now....cry).

But you know how it is, you kind of get a feel for it and get a sixth sense for where the batteries are in varying usage patterns and weather conditions. It's not like I'm fiddling with it every day. These are just broad categories and tend to more change with the season (like is the sun high in the sky or is it shoulder season). If it sounds like I'm micromanaging it; that's because I wrote it all down here in one place.

(BTW, my batteries start balancing at 13.8 volts; maybe that's different for different models.)

Hope this was clear enough to be of use to you.

Frosty
 
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Just some random thoughts. This area is probably open to further refinement over time. But IMO it is generally OK to float at 13.5 for long periods. If there is going to be a very very long period of inactivity, then a storage voltage with a further reduced voltage is a good idea.

Here is a quote from a quite reputable source on this topic.

Float voltage and potential overcharging:

Lithium-ion batteries do not have a non-damaging way to dissipate excess charging. It is important not to overcharge lithium-ion batteries. It will cause breakdown of electrolyte.

You should also consider tolerances in charger's voltage and keep any float voltage safely below full charge voltage of lithium-ion cell. For LFP cell this full charge voltage is 3.40v to 3.43v. You should not set charger float voltage above about 3.38v per cell to assure there is some safety margin.

Also consider cell balancing will not likely be perfect with some cells having slightly higher and slightly lower voltage.

LFP cathode material is very rugged compared to NMC and NCA cathode material used for EV's. The avoidance of full charge state often touted in EV's EMC and NCA lithium-ion cells does not apply as much to LFP batteries. There is a minor additional decomposition acceleration rate of electrolyte at higher cell voltage, but it is very small. Higher cell temperature is more damaging to electrolyte then holding a high SoC for LFP cells. Holding high SoC at high cell temperature does have a significant electrolyte degradation rate acceleration.

The above recommended 3.38 vpc for a 12 volt battery is 13.52. And that is providing for additional margin for poor voltage control on various chargers as well as slight cell imbalance that affects total pack voltage. In other words, one cell might be held over the recommended 3.38 if there is pack cell imbalance even though the total is 13.5. At 13.5 all cells should be within .004 or less IMO.

Keep in mind lithium "float" for a boat or camper is not a float at all as the term was sometimes used in the past. Its actually just another lower absorption voltage. So we essentially have a higher absorption voltage (14-14.4) to decrease charge time, especially near the top 10%, but the higher absorption voltage is a useful to aid in cell balance due to the higher voltage "uncovering" cell split and thus providing an opportunity to apply a corrective balance.

It may be useful to start discussing or thinking about "float" in terms of "lower absorption". It may help with visualizing what's happening with something like a Victron Inverter charger, IP22, IP43, most Xantrex, most Magnum (but not all) inverter chargers or chargers that have absorption and float (lower absorption) settings.

That is...when sitting at the lower absorption/float, the charge source is set to maintain that float voltage of the entire DC circuit, battery and all. And a good inverter/charger or charger will maintain tight control of that set float/lower absorption voltage despite having additional ships loads that may come and go and may be fairly hefty. For instance, if a good inverter charger has run through a complete cycle and is not holding the entire DC circuit at 13.50 volts and there are no additional loads (other than slight battery self discharge and its own component consumption) and then 3 DC fans and many DC lights are turned on then the voltage in that DC circuit will dip slightly, be detected by the charge source, and current output raised so there is no longer a voltage dip, maintaining ~13.50. The opposite happens when those loads are suddenly turned off.

So if you have a high-quality charge source that holds stable voltage (which most of us should have) then IMO you can use 13.5 for float if you essentially want to be "ready" to use the boat or are using the boat on a routine basis. Or if you want to maintain a high level of readiness and capacity even sitting at the dock for things like power outages, storms etc to power things like bilge pumps, refrigerators, Wi-Fi, Starlink to maximize possible run time. But those are subjective decisions.

Many battery manufacturers actually float at 13.8v. I wouldn't. But I am not too concerned with 13.5. Does it have to be 13.5? Not at all. But at 13.5 you can be confidant of SOC being at 98-99%, especially as those ships loads come and go. At 13.5 its just a little capacity "taken off the top". Every tenth volt lower than that, especially in the 13.2 to 13.3 range, its more difficult to decide what your actual reserve capacity is for the power out scenario.

One thing to note, some Victron components such as the MPPT have the ability to set absorption and float voltage to 2 decimals and do a great job of voltage control to that second decimal. In those cases you could set 13.45 and really split hairs for your liking.

As a side note...that quote above came from RCinFLA on the DIY Solar forums. This is the thread and its post number 20

I encourage you guys to click on his profile and just pick out random posts by him. He is a working EE in this field and appears to be of exceptional talent. He generates many of his own documents that are just excellent. Much of it is well above my head.
 
This is not a specific answer to the question asked in this topic, but I did not want to start a complete new topic for this. I stumbled on this video and not only does this guy have a beautiful set up of his pilot house, he also shows his complete LiFePO4 installation and explains very well the benefits of Lithium over AGM. The things he mentions are the exact same things why I also changed to LiFePO4, so others may take notice of that as well.
Can highly recommend this video, he has a Nordhavn 55, I don't know the channel at all, but i will take a look at other videos they published.

The pilot house is something I am jealous of and he has some real nice hacks to overcome problems we all encounter when using tablets, camera's etc.

 
Another huge difference is that LFP batteries do not need float charging (which will actually destroy them) and AGM/LA batteries do.
To be accurate most vendors do not want you to float LiFePo4 above 3.65 volts cell voltage.
 
To be accurate most vendors do not want you to float LiFePo4 above 3.65 volts cell voltage.
Epoch recommendations
Batteries employed in non-Victron systems should utilize the following settings:
- Absorption voltage: 14.2V
- Absorption time of 15 minutes per battery
- Float voltage: 13.5V
- Equalization: Off
- No temperature compensation (Disabled)
 
This is not a specific answer to the question asked in this topic, but I did not want to start a complete new topic for this. I stumbled on this video and not only does this guy have a beautiful set up of his pilot house, he also shows his complete LiFePO4 installation and explains very well the benefits of Lithium over AGM. The things he mentions are the exact same things why I also changed to LiFePO4, so others may take notice of that as well.
Can highly recommend this video, he has a Nordhavn 55, I don't know the channel at all, but i will take a look at other videos they published.

The pilot house is something I am jealous of and he has some real nice hacks to overcome problems we all encounter when using tablets, camera's etc.

I wonder who did their install. I am getting more and more high end customers from high end installers choosing the Epochs. I wonder why. During the sale we sold an order of 10 of the 24v V2 to a NH 64.

I would love a nice pilot house like that. I would probably live there.
 
guys...click the link in in the bottom of post 37 for float information. Floating at anything over resting voltage is not recommended IMO.
 
guys...click the link in in the bottom of post 37 for float information. Floating at anything over resting voltage is not recommended IMO.
Looked again. You should not set charger float voltage above about 3.38v
Missed that the first time. There are 4 cells in a 12V battery. 3.38X4= 13.52V
Mine sit at 13.53/4=3.3825V with near zero current, fully charged.
 
Looked again. You should not set charger float voltage above about 3.38v
Missed that the first time. There are 4 cells in a 12V battery. 3.38X4= 13.52V
Mine sit at 13.53/4=3.3825V with near zero current, fully charged.
And that's giving a margin for poor voltage control of the charge sources as well as balance delta.
 
I wonder who did their install.

I would love a nice pilot house like that. I would probably live there.
In the video he names the company that did it. Says that it took 4 guys about 6 weeks to install everything. He then went on to say that a good electrician costs about 150/hr and a helper about 110 to 120 /hr. At 8 hours per day that would be about 4500 per day, 5 days a week for 6 weeks......ouch. I get to about 130.000 USD in installation costs and that would be a bit over the top for me. I paid 23.000 for a complete rewire and installation of all my Victron equipment.

The pilot house set up looks awesome. I understand he has a history in aviation and seeing that pilot house I can recognize a cockpit set up.
 
Epoch recommendations
Batteries employed in non-Victron systems should utilize the following settings:
- Absorption voltage: 14.2V
- Absorption time of 15 minutes per battery
- Float voltage: 13.5V
- Equalization: Off
- No temperature compensation (Disabled)
I guess that most LiFePO4 producers use the same absorption and float voltages. Mine absorb at 28.4 at 24 V or 14.2 at 12 V and float at 27.6 at 24 V or 13.8 at 12 V.

A charged battery, no load, sits at about 27.2 V at 24 V or 13.6 at 12 V. My cells are around 3.40 V.

Sometimes, when a battery does not want to balance within the 2 hour absorption period I change the float voltage to 28.4 (24 V battery) until the battery is balanced. Once balanced I change the float voltage back to 27.6 V
 
Ok, getting back to this project after some input and research. I have all the materials now and am planning the project out to be done over the Xmas break.
Here is the latest schematic, comments always welcome.
 

Attachments

  • Lindell 36 Wiring LiPO As Planned 12_15_25.pdf
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I think you have a handle on this, except for how it is drawn.
I see DC charger direct to one epoch and unswitched. I would make the House switch #1 and start #2 to have left on #1 except when needed to assist start. (thinking house switch should be primary)
The start battery switch left in ALL? Maybe you meant #2. Again the start switch, my preference #1 would be engine start, #2 GEN.
The GEN start switch should have #1 GEN battery #2 from House Battery and left on #1
 
I think you have a handle on this, except for how it is drawn.
I see DC charger direct to one epoch and unswitched. I would make the House switch #1 and start #2 to have left on #1 except when needed to assist start. (thinking house switch should be primary)
The start battery switch left in ALL? Maybe you meant #2. Again the start switch, my preference #1 would be engine start, #2 GEN.
The GEN start switch should have #1 GEN battery #2 from House Battery and left on #1
Thanks Steve,
The DC charging from the AGM start bank to the Lithium bank via the Orion pair of chargers should only connect to the Lithium bank. There is no manual disconnect from the charging, but the Orion's can be turned off if needed via the touch panel. I think this is the correct setup.

Regarding the start switch setting to ALL, this is correct. What is not shown is there is a second battery switch at the generator which has 1-2-All which combines the start bank and generator bank if needed, this is usually set on just the generator, so the line running back from the start bank selector switch is usually not connected. It's a little weird, but it makes sense (I think). I didn't bother to show it but might add it for clarity.

Other than that, I think the circuit is mostly baked. One thing I didn't mention is the location for all of this equipment. The batteries are split on both sides on the outside of the engines, the selector switches are located at the entrance to the engine room and behind that, which is under the rear of the U shaped seating base along with the inverter. It's going to be tight in there with the extra equipment, but I think I can make it work. I'm also adding a fan with temperature control to vent that area to the outside of the boat. There is currently some vents at the lower portion of the seats and the fan will be placed do draw at the top.
 
Out to the boat today with some more parts for the HVAC job. Found the batteries at 85 and 68 percent of SOC on the Victron smart shunts. Almost perfect - :)

I really don't worry about this stuff anymore. I had set the charger for absorb at 13.5 and float at 13.1, so they swing a bit and recover from power outages easily. Which has happened 3 times this winter. Today while I was doing my stuff the charger fans came on and the charger was doing 6 amps and the batteries were only getting less than half an amp. Charger was doing the load carry as the batts were on the low end.

Why perfect? The 85% (house 2) is 600 AH and the 68% (house 1) is 280 AH. This stuff balances out real nice eh? And my system is far from equal length cables and all the batteries the same. It's twice the capacity on one side of the switch vs the other and all different cable lengths from all the batteries.

Yet it seems to working very well - :)
 
Been meaning to update this thread. I have everything installed and running now. Still trying to understand some of the Lithium charging parameters, it seems pretty aggressive coming up from bulk to adsorption, but I'm probably overly worried about it.

The cool thing is today, I rewired all the air conditioning to go through the inverter. Before, the AC could only run off shore power or the generator. With 920AH full I put the forward stateroom AC on and after a few minutes it said I was pulling 660W and I had >15 hours of battery time left! This is going to be a gamechanger for us doing the loop (happy wife.... you know).

The install was fiddley, but mostly straight-forward. It was made more difficult because the inverter and DC-DC chargers are mounted under a settee and access is tight. Along the way I cleaned up a bunch of messy wiring in the engine room so it took a little longer than planned but no big surprises.
I'm a happy camper now, a big thanks to @Barking Sands (Al) for his help. Thanks to all the others who chimed in.
 
Out to the boat today with some more parts for the HVAC job. Found the batteries at 85 and 68 percent of SOC on the Victron smart shunts. Almost perfect - :)

I really don't worry about this stuff anymore. I had set the charger for absorb at 13.5 and float at 13.1, so they swing a bit and recover from power outages easily. Which has happened 3 times this winter. Today while I was doing my stuff the charger fans came on and the charger was doing 6 amps and the batteries were only getting less than half an amp. Charger was doing the load carry as the batts were on the low end.

Why perfect? The 85% (house 2) is 600 AH and the 68% (house 1) is 280 AH. This stuff balances out real nice eh? And my system is far from equal length cables and all the batteries the same. It's twice the capacity on one side of the switch vs the other and all different cable lengths from all the batteries.

Yet it seems to working very well - :)
Can you explain the charging setup to cause the different SOC
 
Sure. One charger, Xantrex 3 KW pro mariner XC. Set to 13.5 and 13.1. Both banks House 1 & 2 in parallel.

But it has nothing to do with the charger.

House 1 is 600 AH (2 Litime 300 in parallel) and House 2 is a 280 AH Litime. So the big one is twice as charged as the small one and the big one is twice the size of the small one.

If you look at the drain of the two they are the same. Just like water in two tanks. A 600 gallon tank in parallel with a 280 gallon tank. The fluid level is the same in both tanks. But the big tank has more left than the small one. Twice as much because it has twice the capacity.

Sounds a little strange at first, but makes perfect sense when you think about it.
 
It works the same way charging. The big side takes twice the current as the small side.

Before I added the smart shunts I only knew what one side was doing, the other side was not wired to the shunt.
 
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