Wire routing question, planned upgrade...

[wolfgram]

We have a 2000 Camano troll. We are upgrading the electronics to remove some of the ray marine stuff and replace it with simrad. The raymarine uses a proprietary SeaTalk protocol to communicate. We do have an NMEA 2000 backbone which connects our Simrad VHF which is an AIS receiver to our simrad GOE9 GPS unit, which allows us to see the position and direction of vessels which are broadcasting their AIS information. As a next step, we are adding a Simrad Halo 20 radar which talks nicely with our GOE9. There are two functions which we need to address to achieve the following functions: The ability to paint the radar screen on the GPS map, The ability to get MARPAA data which shows direction, speed, and closest point of approach for selected vessels. To achieve that we have to install a sophisticated heading sensor. Our boat has a Raymarine heading sensor installed in the bottom of the closet, it talks sea talk to our autopilot. The ideal spot for the new heading sensor is very close to the ray marine heading sensor. We will ultimately end up with 2 types of nav components with different integration. The autopilot and depth gauge will continue as sea talk until they fail. The Radar, communication and navigation system will be communicating via NMEA200.

All of the above is content. Here is the question.

How do I get an NMEA wire down into that closet on the starboard side, without tearing the boat apart?

 

[Frosty]

I have a question for you: You mention a Seatalkng network, and a NMEA network. However, those are actually the same thing, but just Raymarine has proprietary plugs. So they can be joined but just with adapters as needed.

OR, are you saying you need to purposely have two "parallel but never the twain shall meet" NMEA networks, because otherwise the two heading sensors will be in conflict? Like each brand needs its own seperate NMEA network?

For a second cable, I guess I would first ask: How does the current Seatalkng cable get from the Raymarine gear at the helm to the heading sensor in the closet? Follow the same path?

I can think of possible routes but if there is already a route the existing Seatlkng cable followed then maybe no need to think of other ways.

 

[wolfgram]

Frosty - interesting questions and comments. My understanding of 2000 era Sea Talk is that it is hybrid of the older NMEA format, and it for sure does have proprietary connectors. My reason for the parallel universes is to avoid significant expense of a complete electronic upgrade. We currently have an autopilot which is working quite well in the sea talk world. Our upgrade path is in the NMEA 2000 Simrad world. I'm not going to decommission a functioning autopilot which will hold a heading for us, and with our simple requirements, we don't need it to talk to our navigation system.

The reason for the question is on the hopes that someone with our same boat, has done the same type of project and knows where the wiring is routed. The spaces are tight and the wiring closet while accessible is also tight.

The current sensor is located at the bottom of the closet at the very bottom. It is at a spot I can just barely reach and certainly can't work on. I don't see any access panels for service, which is surprising on a Camano Troll. I do not want to "cut the cable" on the existing and use it as a messenger line, doing so would knock out my autopilot

I hope this makes sense.

 

[Frosty]

Ah, okay, I understand better now. So your Raymarine network must be Seatalk 1 (formerly the only Seatalk).

Now there is a Seatalk1 to Seatalkng (NMEA) converter. It looks just like a 5-position Setalk ng bar, but has one yellow ring. Might be something to look into.

On the routing, hmmm. I wonder what route they took with the exising cable, but I understand that sometimes it's just nearly impossible to figure out. I'm only a Camano fanboy, but I have some understnding of the layout. As you say, one of the things that made me like them is how there is so much accessibility.

But so really, you only have to get from the "cupboard in the head" that is the access to the back of the helm wiring, "across" the head area, and to the closet just adjacent to the head.

Perhaps someone with a Camano will pipe in. In the meantime....... so typically an NMEA drop cable doesn't have to be super short. I mean, there is some limit but it's not like regular wires and voltage drop. I feel like there is no access to just open up the head sole. But isn't there a locker at about 36" high that runs around the outboard side of the head? That might give you a route from the back of the helm area to the closet. Or alternatively (but maybe less interesting) somehow going down and then pulling it through the holding tank area under the passageway.

The first route I was thinking about something like this, with the the purple box being the access door to the back of the helm electronics, and the dashed lines representing that the wire is out of sight, inside those spaces (closet being just out of photo to the left of it).

 

[Frosty]

Here is a same drawing but shifted "left" so we can see the closet wall. I'm thinking that you can get a cable from the purple box (aft side of helm electronics), down through that access panel area, and then into the "hamper" locker that is behind the toilet (tucked up and out so it's not interfering with the hamper). Then down the forward (left in photo) side of the hamper and into the closet.

Heck, maybe you will find the original Seatalk cable going the same way?

At any rate, no harm in taking off that access panel to the right (in the photo) of the hamper and also lifting the hamper lid and having a look? I will stick my phone into places like that and take photos, then look at it on the screen.

I think I may spy a deck plate on the left in that vertical riser to the left of the toilet. Not that this is your boat, but maybe they all have that (to get at toilet valve or something)? Or maybe someone added that to the boat in the photo for this type of reason.

 

[Frosty]

One more photo, of the hanging locker that shares the wall with the head just aft of it (for those playing along). I have looked at 3-4 photos of the same hanging locker on different Camanos and they all have that little bulge (from top to bottom of the locker) where I put the red arrow on this photo (though this hanging locker has added shelves so you can only see a little bit of it). I wonder if that's some sort of wiring cover up? Maybe it's just a cleat that the bulkhead rests up against.

 

[wolfgram]

thanks, that is good input and I suspect that is the wiring run. The challenge is going to be accessing it. I don't want to cut new holes in the boat. I could probably locate the new sensor into a different spot with out major surgery. And also there is an access plate next to the forward side of the vacuflush. the trick is going to be getting into that lowest area. Thanks for your comments, they are very helpful and illustrate understanding of the boat and it's layout.

 

[Serene]

Frosty - interesting questions and comments. My understanding of 2000 era Sea Talk is that it is hybrid of the older NMEA format, and it for sure does have proprietary connectors. My reason for the parallel universes is to avoid significant expense of a complete electronic upgrade. We currently have an autopilot which is working quite well in the sea talk world. Our upgrade path is in the NMEA 2000 Simrad world. I'm not going to decommission a functioning autopilot which will hold a heading for us, and with our simple requirements, we don't need it to talk to our navigation system.

Can't help with routing wires on your boat, other than to second what Frosty said about following the route already used, but I just went through the same situation. i.e. wanting to keep an older functional Raymarine autopilot, chartplotter and radar, but to install a NMEA2000 AIS device, share data and not spend a bomb in the process.

I got caught out as there are actually three versions of Seatalk. I thought there were only two, but halfway through the job I couldn't get old and new to talk. Turns out there is what was originally called Seatalk, now Seatalk1 which is a three pin plug, then Seatalk2 which is a five pin plug and uses the NMEA2000 protocol, plus now SeatalkNG which is also NMEA2000 compatible except for the proprietary Raymarine plugs.

Converting from Seatalk1 to NMEA2000 is where the plug Frosty mentions with the yellow connector works, but converting from Seatalk2 to NMEA2000 is a single cable with the five-pin plug on one end and a SeatalkNG connector on the other end.

So check your old Seatalk network as to whether the plugs have three or five pins. From the outside they look the same black colour and shape. You need to unplug to see the number of pins, which is what caught me out. I thought I had Seatalk1 but it was actually Seatalk2.

 

[Frosty]

Geez, a whole *third* version of Seatalk I didn't know existed! (I never had a "backbone" until I made one with NMEA/Seatalkng.)

 

[Frosty]

thanks, that is good input and I suspect that is the wiring run. The challenge is going to be accessing it. I don't want to cut new holes in the boat.

I have a feeling this is doable without cutting holes (I say from my keyboard, LOL). Maybe some wire to pull through any hard-to-reach sections (then tape or affix string or wire to that and pull on through). I've also used a vacuum to suck a string through a section.

For the wire: I keep a few longer pieces of solid copper wire (like household AC wire, say 12 AWG or so) in the tool bag, and they are a little easier to bend and manipulate than something like a coat hanger is. Yet they are still stiff enough to usually do the job.

Key tool these days is my phone camera. YOu can slide that into so many areas! Then pull it back out and see what you could never get your head in to look at in person. I even found out that on my older phone (iPhone6S, which is now dedicated to this sort of thing), that if I plugged in a set of the cheap Apple earphones, that I could press the little "hang up" thing on the wire an the camera would take a photo. Now I could take photos WAY IN THERE. Helped a friend with a big electrical job and his boat was "fully encased" in a fiberglass liner, which everything was behind. Nightmare! Phone took a thousand photos.

*****
BTW, I don't know if two heading sensors next to each other would cause interference (I'm not saying that because of any grounded suspicion - just don't know). What I DO know, is that on my boat, I had the devil's own time finding a good spot for it.

Can't be near high-current carrying wires
Can't be near steel, etc.
Etc. (so much etc.!)

Every time I thought I had a spot, I'd realize but no wait, my tools are there! Or.... too close to the anchor rode, or wait, cutlery, or.....

So what I'm thinking is, IF two heading sensors in proximity is not a problem, then if you have a spot that works (which you must know the existing one does) then... that's not something to sneeze at on a smaller boat.

 

[Serene]

Geez, a whole *third* version of Seatalk I didn't know existed! (I never had a "backbone" until I made one with NMEA/Seatalkng.)

Yep caught me out too....I saw the old style black plug and assumed it was Seatalk1.

 

[l00smarble]

And to be clear the old Raymarine autopilot compass is not SeaTalk1, SeaTalk2 or SeaTalkNG. It is an analog fluxgate compass that has to be connected to a Raymarine course computer to be decoded into heading data.

I think a SeaTalk1 <-> SeaTalkNG/NMEA2000 converter will be easies and likely will work. It is bidirectional so it will also give your autopilot the ability to steer to a waypoint from the Simrad. This is the way.

 

[wolfgram]

Here is an alert for folks. I purchased a Maretron SSC300 to use as a heading sensor for the boat, cost around 430. I open the box and read the instructions and find out you need a special maretron device to calibrate it, cost around 1,000. I'm going to try and return it to fisheries supply but do not have the original packaging. Really hoping I don't have a very expensive paper weight

 

[Frosty]

@l00smarble
That is great info!

 

[Antares]

Per the manual it's possible to calibrate the Maretron sc330 via NMEA 0183. I've done it with an earlier model using a pc and a terminal emulator program. Needed is the 0183 cable and a way to get to the serial port of a pc. If you are comfortable trying this or have a friend who would help it will work. It's a bit of a chore getting set-up but a lot less than $1k.

 

[wolfgram]

I appreciate that input, but I am going to return the item in person to the vendor. Having to spend a lot of money or time to calibrate an item, which was not disclosed on the sales brochure is not cool. Time spent to do work work arounds which most probably will not work is time wasted..