Who is Responsible?

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

PNK

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2020
Messages
194
Location
U.S.
I am posting this because of an event I witnessed earlier this week in Shelter Island, where we had gone for a few days. It happened at the dock of the hotel where we were staying, where boats often stopped temporarily to pick up or let off passengers, friends, etc. In this case, the boat was, I am pretty sure, an Eastbay 54 Flybridge. Two guys were running the boat, one was the owner, the other crew or family, never sure which. They tied up on their starboard side to one of the two docks that each went out from the beach about 75-100ft, and seemed to handle the boat competently on arrival. It was close to high tide when they arrived. Nothing much happened until later in the afternoon, when the owner came back and had a hard time getting back on the boat; he had to reach across about a 3ft gap, and pull himself up and over the rail. At the time I was wondering how such an expensive boat didn't have a better boarding system.
About 5:30 2 carloads of people showed up, turned out they were there to celebrate the owner's birthday with an evening cruise, but they couldn't get on the boat at this point as it was even further from the dock. It looked to me like they were actually aground based on the boat's motion, or lack of, but they tried a bunch of stuff to get the boat to the dock, including running the bow and stern thrusters, and having several people pull on their docking lines. Nothing worked, of course; that model weighs around 60,000lbs, and draws over 4ft, and at that point it was almost dead low tide. They called Sea Tow, and when the boat eventually showed up he took one look, stuck a rod into the water to show them they were in less than two feet, said there was really nothing he could do until the tide came back in - high tide that day was right around midnight - so he drove away.
The owner laid a paddle board across the gap so his guests could board, but even that was pretty dicey; he must have been pretty embarrassed at that point.
He wasn't able to leave the dock until around 10PM, and the "party" had wound down long before, although everyone sang a couple of rounds of "Happy Birthday" from the dock.
It was easy to watch this happen and feel like that would never happen to me; even without checking tides, a simple glance at the depth gauge should have shown him that he needed to move to deeper water, but later I thought, if I tied up my boat to a fixed dock at a hotel, how much care would I take to be sure I would have enough water under the boat for the next several hours?
If you spend that much money on a boat seems like you should be pretty careful to treat it well, and it wouldn't have taken much effort to avoid the problem completely.
Maybe the hotel should have said something to him about the tides, since it was their dock? The tide drop was around 3 ft., and if he had simply tied up at the "T" end of the dock he would have been fine.
I have hit bottom before, but at slow speeds, and was able to back off under my own power, once in a sailboat in the ICW, once in-shore in the Cranberry Islands, but grounding while at the dock doesn't seem like something that should happen.
Obviously there are places where the tide changes are pretty big, like parts of the Maine coast, but if you know nothing else, seeing docks floating up and down on fixed piers has to make you think, and generally those docks run out far enough so boats have enough water even at low tide.
Was the owner just not thinking, or am I being too harsh on the guy?
Maybe this happens more often than I think, and I just had never been right there to watch it as it happened?
Curious what everyone thinks?

Peter
 
Owner/captain's fault. He is responsible for knowing the boat's requirements and judging the environment of the docking. Hopefully no damage was done. I would not be surprised if he knew that he was leaving on a falling tide, and was planning to leave earlier but stragglers of the large group delayed his departure. I hope no damage was done, it doesn't sound like anyone got hurt except for the birthday boy's pride.
 
Personally, I think this is pretty normal. Just one of those things that happens from time to time.

Many years ago my bride and I were up the Delta (SF Bay). We'd stopped for lunch at a small marina/restaurant. Lunch became afternoon beers, which became live music, etc. We crashed for the night. A few hours later - still hazy from the libations, I awoke when I rolled hard into her. I was pretty disoriented as the bed was tilted at least 45 degrees.

Turns out there was a big ebb tide and we dried out. Weebles balanced on her keel for a while but at some point we toppled over towards the dock in less than 2 feet of water. Somewhere I have a picture.

Peter

EDIT - agree with Gdavid. Owners responsibility. Simple lapse. I'm sure it won't happen again to him :)
 
Last edited:
Sometimes a party is safest tied to the dock, may have been a blessing in disguise.
 
Sometimes a party is safest tied to the dock, may have been a blessing in disguise.
Was certainly the case for us on our night toppled over. There's an old Irish saying that God looks after drunks and fools.....
 
mud is better than a rock
 
The Title asks what would appear to be the scope of the question "Who is responsible", but within the prose, never proposes an alternative subject to be liable other than the captain.

The short answer....the captain is responsible. He should know that:

1) Shelter Island has a 2.5 - 3 foot tide range.
2) Where in the tide cycle he is currently (high, mid, low; rising or falling).
3) How deep the water is currently
4) How much he drafts.

It is not hard to figure out whether you're going to be on the seabed...and when.
 
I've seen deep keeled boats lay over and not come back up as water rises and floods through hull openings before bouyancy takes affect.
I have even seen boats roll past 90 degrees as they dried then rolled off steep bank edges

Therefore, I am always very very very aware of surrounding and under keel depths and tide ranges
 
LOL I draw between 3.5 and 4 ft so if necessary, I can walk to the dock to get help
 
Capt should always know the current and upcoming conditions, although the marina should have known the draft of a visiting boat and whether it will be fine in the slip they put him in. I don't place the blame on them, but rather negligent that they did not put them in a place that accomodates their boat. Sadly not everyone pays attention to tidal range and timing, wind direction, weather, etc. Even more important when anchoring.
 
You might get a little lax back east with very little tidal range. Up in the north (Newfoundland let's say) or out in the PNW you will not forget about the tide. It can be 25' different 6 hours after you tied up.

Clearly the captain's responsibility, no matter what the hotel told him. Surely he has a depth sounder?
 
It's lack of situational awareness. Where I am we have roughly 7 ft of tide. Not huge, but enough to get you in trouble. Last weekend, a friend rafted up to me at anchor, something I normally try to avoid. In the course of the afternoon, the wind changed from offshore to onshore as the tide was going out. We went from 25 ft of water to 4 ft in the matter of a couple hours. I checked the depth and told him he had to leave. He never thought to check. Once he left, I took in some rode and was fine. Probably would have been regardless, but just an example of not everyone being aware of the conditions and also knowing what is likely coming (tide, weather, wind, etc) in the coming hours.
 
Last edited:
You might get a little lax back east with very little tidal range. Up in the north (Newfoundland let's say) or out in the PNW you will not forget about the tide. It can be 25' different 6 hours after you tied up.

Clearly the captain's responsibility, no matter what the hotel told him. Surely he has a depth sounder?

Ga and parts of SC (East Coast) have 8'+/- tides...not 25' but enough to make tidal conditions a concern.

Heck we used to plan grocery shopping around the tides cause nobody wanted a runaway dock cart full of groceries as you slid down the ramps to the docks. Certain ICW cuts were nearly impassible at low tide were also worth planning around.
 
Ga and parts of SC (East Coast) have 8'+/- tides...not 25' but enough to make tidal conditions a concern.

Heck we used to plan grocery shopping around the tides cause nobody wanted a runaway dock cart full of groceries as you slid down the ramps to the docks.

Just like walking to school uphill both ways, I swear that whenever I am bringing gear or supplies to/from the boat it's always low tide!!!
 
"Beware the lee shore" is another variation on this theme that I've fallen victim to. It's oh so tempting get protection from an island or other landmass when the wind is blowing hard and cheat a little on the depths of your swing radius. If the wind reverses overnight, you'll be blown into shallow water, like I have been. Never severe consequences thankfully but my keel was nearly touching the bottom once. Lesson learned.
 
Last edited:
I think your being a bit hard on the guy, it happens. He may have been in a hurry and spaced and never thought about the tide. He already paid the price for his lack of attention when his friends witnessed the act. Rarely does one intentionally run aground and if he sat in the mud for a few hours its no biggie. As a previous post mentioned I bet it won't happen again!
Hollywood
 
I think your being a bit hard on the guy, it happens. He may have been in a hurry and spaced and never thought about the tide. He already paid the price for his lack of attention when his friends witnessed the act. Rarely does one intentionally run aground and if he sat in the mud for a few hours its no biggie. As a previous post mentioned I bet it won't happen again!
Hollywood
I agree. I related just one of my epic fails above, but there have been others. A docking in side current at Angel Island. Another on the Columbia River. Another at Astoria. I've never had an insurance claim, but it could have been.

I'm not proud of my mistakes, but it happens. You learn from each. The owner in this example made a mistake. My guess is he now knows a LOT more about tide offsets.

Peter

PS - I do wish the experienced folks on forums like this would be more forthcoming with their epic fails. I now they're out there. Babe Ruth led the league in strikeouts because he was at-bat so much. Would be a more realistic example for newbies. We all start somewhere.
 
Personally, I think this is pretty normal. Just one of those things that happens from time to time.

Many years ago my bride and I were up the Delta (SF Bay). We'd stopped for lunch at a small marina/restaurant. Lunch became afternoon beers, which became live music, etc. We crashed for the night. A few hours later - still hazy from the libations, I awoke when I rolled hard into her. I was pretty disoriented as the bed was tilted at least 45 degrees.

Turns out there was a big ebb tide and we dried out. Weebles balanced on her keel for a while but at some point we toppled over towards the dock in less than 2 feet of water. Somewhere I have a picture.

Peter

EDIT - agree with Gdavid. Owners responsibility. Simple lapse. I'm sure it won't happen again to him :)

LOL! That happens to many in the California Delta. Often just a polishing of the props but I found a few exceptions that hurt the pocketbook. :socool: :facepalm: :hide:
 
ah yes, the advantage of a floating dock
 
Hey we have all been there. We all make mistakes. Can he learn from it that's the question.. I draw 5' with no gear protection, I trust no one. I do my own research. Dosent mean I ignore local knowledge, I practice caution and trust my experience. First rule in boating Watch your tides and charts.
 
In the big scheme of boating, this ranks fairly low. We have all done dumb stuff.

Edit - well, most of us.
 
I think the trickier version of this incident is tying to a fixed piling in areas like Alaska and coming back to your boat hanging in the air. No question who's fault it is.
 
I know of a boat(as does another TFer)visiting a new location,tying fore and aft between 2 poles. Unknown was the third pole between the 2, broken off underwater. Crew went to dinner, tide did it`s thing....and uh oh.
A tough audience might find fault, doubt I would. As they say, **** happens.
 
Totally the boat's fault. It should have been monitoring depth and sent up a flare alerting when minimum depth was reached. Of course, any said flare should have been auto-pointed away from docks and/or persons.

In other news, here are some additional boat faults:
- Bad docking because of copious wind. Boat should auto compensate to smoothly dock like a boss.
- Holding tanks full in the middle of a party. Boat should auto covert substances to biodiesel to make more room in the holding tanks.
- Out of Rum. I bought the auto-still option but the only thing that comes out of the tap is something called "water"

Bottom line: *Always* blame the boat.

Don't know about y'all, but I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore.
 
Last edited:
you know the old saying. There are only 2 kind of captains: those that have run aground, and those that will. That captain now belongs to the first group! CONGRATULATIONS!!!
 
I thought the saying was "Those who have run aground and those who lie about not having done so"
 
They say **** happens. But it happens far more often to the unprepared and unaware.

If you are in an area with large tides and no floating dock, you will be quickly schooled. I was tied to a wharf in Newfoundland for two days of gale, 25'+ range, had to get up every 2 hours and adjust the dock lines. If you don't your cleats will be removed from the deck.
 
The Captain's "responsible" but I'm glad to see he didn't let it bother him too much. The windsurfer as "party bridge" was clever.

I have almost 50 years of cruising experience - the last 20 years in 50ft+ boats. I still occasionally run aground, drag anchor, hit the dock, wrap a lobster pot and miss a mooring. As long as no one gets hurt, it's part of the experience.

Years ago I did a particularly inelegant docking. It was a long dock with 2kts of current running out from the dock. One of my transmissions had a problem that caused it to keep slipping out of gear and the bow thruster wasn't working. At one point the boat was sticking straight out from the dock with the bow touching - lines were everywhere. Two dock hands running around. After it was all over and I was safely tied up a young lady who had been in the crowd that had gathered asked what I had been doing. "Oh", I said, "It's a Coast Guard requirement. I have to practice that maneuver once a year to keep my license".

"Wow, you certainly are good at it", She said
 
Last edited:
Good one Carl!

Mid 1960's I had 13'3" Boston Whaler with 40 hp Johnson on her.

Well... dad belonged to Freeport Yacht Club and LI South Shore Power Squadron. In summer there were HUGE rafts of boats that would often gather in Zachs Bay and at times in Gilgo Bay too. And, I do mean HUGE... like 40 boats at once! Twenty would be tied in direction of bow facing the wind with several anchors out [in my Whaler I some times took more anchors out] and 20 other boats 180 degrees the other way - in a stern to stern configuration; creating an oblique, elliptical semi circle in between. With fenders and tag lines galore it could become a hard drinking party! Must mention... that was before black water holding tanks on most boats... ewwww... but, that's another story all together! LOL

Soooo - For This Story:

Occasionally there would arise stiff winds that tested the anchored boats' holding power. And, more than a couple of times I've seen these way tooo BIG rafts suddenly drag their anchors.

Here's the real meat of this story!

Nearly every time a big raft got together the boat owners would make sure that the owner of a fairly new twin screw, fly bridge sport fisher was in the center of the bow to wind anchored boats. Oddly, its captain was a full on stumble drunk... but 100% trusted when/if heavy wind anchor dragging shat hit the fan! I've seen it when his words were fully slurred aboard transom of boats... yet due to anchor drag he was called to action. Up on the FB with megaphone in hand his twin screw boat performed central power for the raft while he turned side to side "clearly" barking orders for rpm increase or decrease to boats in the raft that also had started their engines. It became a mad scramble for many of the party persons to haul in anchor rode while the "Captain" commandeered the raft, inching it back into position. Then, once the anchors were pulled and the raft's position in the harbor was again correct the Captain in the center would bull horn announce "Drop Anchors!" It was a near magical capability he had [while being well inebriated] to save the raft's integrity as well as the safety of other boats self-anchored in the harbor. Immediately after things had calmed down I was tasked with my Whaler to help set a bunch more boats' anchors.

Dad always made sure we were tied on far end of the raft so we could self-anchor well away for the night. Good plan DAD!!
 
Last edited:
Owner/captain's fault. He is responsible for knowing the boat's requirements and judging the environment of the docking. Hopefully no damage was done. I would not be surprised if he knew that he was leaving on a falling tide, and was planning to leave earlier but stragglers of the large group delayed his departure. I hope no damage was done, it doesn't sound like anyone got hurt except for the birthday boy's pride.
I agree that your scenario is possible, but a captain's first responsibilities are the safety of his ship, crew & passengers. If he knew the situation was a matter of timing he should have moved the the vessel before it became a problem regardless of what other situations arose. If I was in a situation where the tide would leave me aground, even if the boat was disabled, I would hire someone to tow the boat to safer waters.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom