When did the ABYC become the FAA of the boating world?

[BruceK]

The obvious is "exceeding the brief". Called for a specific issue, a repairer purports to mechanically survey the boat and quote accordingly. Seems madness to me.
Problem is, when next insuring( ? affects OP looking to dispose of the boat even by donation) if the work involves safety aspects(probably does if it affects propulsion), does the duty of disclosure obligation require telling the insurer?

 

[Bacchus]

When you buy a house, the bank will lend money and the insurance company will insure it, even if it doesn't meet current codes. And an older house may differ from current codes in substantial ways, both structurally and electrically. Further, neither the bank, nor the insurance company typically want any inspection at all.

The same is true of cars and airplanes (though airplanes do require inspection periodically for other reasons). Boats are treated differently.

Not ( completely) true...
Plenty of banks require an home inspection prior to approving a mortgage loan. It is not uncommon where we are to require water testing if on a well and / or radon testing / remediation if common in the area.
I've personally had "standards" imposed by home insurance, such as hard wired smoke detectors as a condition of the policy.
Neither requires home to be brought up to current codes but they can and do have some that are expected and required.
You are not mandated to use either that bank or insurance Co. And requirements are not universal so you can still look elsewhere or self insure ( and maybe secure funds through other means) if you choose, but generally home mortgage rates are attractive and it's your choice to go that route... expect other "requirements" like a survey, title insurance, etc.

 

[Don L]

When I got my house 1.5 years ago the insurance company most certainly required an inspection. And my mortgage most certainly required insurance so .....

I had two house inspected and they both were way older than current new build codes. But the codes addressed this and basically the old the electrical etc. only had to be done "correctly". The inspector just wrote on the report whether it was OK or not, not go into detail of how it was not per the current requirements.

The problem in this thread is not the ABYC. It's surveyors and "technicians". On a web search I see words like "expected" and "should" and that is not the same as "required" even within the ABYC.

I bet there are VERY boats that an owners has done work on that meet the current ABYC

 

[twistedtree]

For what it's worth, the very first paragraph in the ABYC standards sets out the effective date and reads like this example:

"ABYC recommends compliance with this standard for all systems and associated equipment manufactured and/or installed after July 31, 2022"

They only ever apply to new equipment and installations, and are never retroactive. If a surveyor or insurance company wants to apply a new standard to old work, they should explain why. I also think it's really important to ask any prospective surveyor how they apply the standards when evaluating a boat, and make sure that's what you want before hiring them.

 

[sunchaser]

I run a service company and run into this issue all the time. We choose (not by law) to do all our work to ABYC Standards. This is just a business decision same as some boatbuilders choose to build to ABYC Standards. It gives us a "standard" to work to and gives us backing on any decision on why something is done a certain way. It gives us some protection from liability with a clear "right" way to do things that can be trusted to be safe and reliable.

But I also don't expect that every time we get on a boat we are going to rewire the entire boat to ABYC Standards. This is not practical.

In many cases it is easy to define the beginning and end of our new work and that work is clearly ABYC compliant. Like we add a new circuit to a panel with a new breaker and add a new widget. No problem.

The problem comes in when we can't define what is our work and what we are not servicing. The concept of once you touch it you own it comes into play all the time.

Example: older boat has 50a shorepower with no breaker until the main 50a breaker in the AC panel which is 40ft cable feet from the shorepower inlet. The inlet overheats and heat wicks up the cable and makes it crunchy. It is too short to cut back and reterminate. Customer wants us to just replace the cable from the inlet to the panel like it was. The problem is that to do it right we have to replace the inlet, then add a ELCI breaker breaker ($800 with box) within 10ft of the inlet. Customer just wants it "like it was. It worked for 20 years which is fine" but we choose not to offer that option. Lets say this boat (through a completely unrelated fault) kills a swimmer in the marina. Owner will say "I just had an electrician replace my shorepower system." Guess who is now involved in a law suit.

Or another common example: battery charger fails. Owner wants us to replace the charger with an exact replacement or like kind. Sure...we get the charger with teh same specs and go to swap it out and find that the AC cable has a splce done with wire nuts not in a box 3ft from teh charger and the three DC leads to to three battery banks are unfused at the battery banks. Customer wants us to "just hang the charger and get it working." But we don't install chargers with wire nut AC splices and no overcurrent protection. We are in a no-win situation where we look like the bad guy for stating that we need to do signficant additional work do install the charger.

it gets even more muddy when there is a rats nest of decades of DIY repairs and other poor electrical work. Stuff doesn't work right. Owner wants us to just get it working but once we dig into this bowl of spaghetti there is no easy way to control responsibility.

This is a great reminder post for those looking to purchase a used boat - there will be costs to bring some obviously problematic electrical layouts and equipment up to ABYC specs. This is especially important for newer marine grounding codes so your vessel can successfully and safely plug in to a variety of code correct marinas. Thus be sure your surveyor notes those areas and negotiate accordingly.

About 15 years ago a master marine electrical engineer I know was asked by a well known builder to travel to Taiwan and China to insure proper adherence to ABYC standards. The resultant build costs and hardware were much the same but layouts and locations for breakers, relays, busses, connectors and wire runs were standardized and detailed for all models for both NA and Euro applications.

 

[DDW]

For what it's worth, the very first paragraph in the ABYC standards sets out the effective date and reads like this example:

"ABYC recommends compliance with this standard for all systems and associated equipment manufactured and/or installed after July 31, 2022"

They only ever apply to new equipment and installations, and are never retroactive. If a surveyor or insurance company wants to apply a new standard to old work, they should explain why. I also think it's really important to ask any prospective surveyor how they apply the standards when evaluating a boat, and make sure that's what you want before hiring them.

If you are a surveyor, do you have access to the ABYC standard effective the day the boat was originally launched? Do they archive this for ready access? Just curious.

Most of the surveys I've had done, only a few items were noticed that did not meet current ABYC. Seemed to depend on what that particular surveyor thought important.

 

[Don L]

Seemed to depend on what that particular surveyor thought important.

That's probably the key

 

[SteveK]

For what it's worth, the very first paragraph in the ABYC standards sets out the effective date and reads like this example:

"ABYC recommends compliance with this standard for all systems and associated equipment manufactured and/or installed after July 31, 2022"

They only ever apply to new equipment and installations, and are never retroactive. If a surveyor or insurance company wants to apply a new standard to old work, they should explain why. I also think it's really important to ask any prospective surveyor how they apply the standards when evaluating a boat, and make sure that's what you want before hiring them.

Prior to getting a copy of the ABYC standards I had no way of knowing whether a surveyor was using personal interpretations.

Except for the current survey, I cannot remember the surveyor discussing findings that will go into the report. Usually it was here is the bill and as soon as the check clears you get a copy of survey. That gave me a bad taste for ABYC since all surveyors claimed they must follow the standards.

TT you gave some hints prior to the current 2025 standard as they relate to LFP and fusing. It made sense to limit one Class T fuse to 400Ah until it is proven to actually be higher than 20K AIC. I made that change.
I expect all surveyors will look at DIY LFP fusing installations.

 

[Diep]

When you buy a house, the bank will lend money and the insurance company will insure it, even if it doesn't meet current codes. And an older house may differ from current codes in substantial ways, both structurally and electrically. Further, neither the bank, nor the insurance company typically want any inspection at all.

The same is true of cars and airplanes (though airplanes do require inspection periodically for other reasons). Boats are treated differently.

This is not entirely true. I recently insured a new-to-me property. There were lots of questions on the application including the year it was built and/or substantially altered, which implies the codes enforced (or not) in its construction. Other questions like are there fuses or circuit breakers, GFCIs, etc. Once the policy was written I was required to use an app to photo document many of the items claimed in the application. For example photos of the electrical panel, fire suppression equipment, etc. The alternative was an insurance inspection.

I have always had to answer questions of that sort on a homeowners policy but usually have not needed an inspection of any kind. These are usually so easy and obvious to answer that it is forgotten due to the fact that residential construction is held to a pretty high standard and has been for many decades.

If you live in an old house that has functional knob and tube wiring good luck getting insurance or finding an electrician willing to do anything other than tear it out. Likewise, if your house is a mishmash of un-permitted improvements the resale value is going to suffer and professional tradesmen will be reticent to touch it. I don't know why people expect different with boats.

 

[DDW]

I've never been asked for any of those things for purchase, refinance, or insurance. On old and new houses. Must be in a different market.

However one disturbing thing the last two years has been the insurance company is overflying the property with drones or satellites, or something, then calling out a bunch of stuff or they will non-renew. The bunch of stuff always being bogus. Perhaps AI generated, I don't know. Like the roof being in poor repair and beyond its useful life even though it is <10 years old with an expected life of 100 years and in perfect condition.

So perhaps we have that to look forward to on our boats as well.

 

[psneeld]

California Bill Seeks Greater Transparency in Insurance Drone Imagery​

A bill moving through the California Senate Insurance Committee aims to strengthen consumer protections related to insurance companies’ use of drone and satellite imagery to evaluate properties. The proposed legislation focuses on improving transparency and ensuring policyholders are informed about how such images influence their insurance status. The bill would require insurance companies to: Notify policyholders that aerial images may be taken of their property. Provide those images upon request within 30 days. Limit the use of aerial imagery to photos taken within the past 180 days. Homeowners would also have the right to request an in-person inspection if they dispute a decision based on aerial photos. However, the bill does not require insurers to give advance notice before conducting aerial inspections, nor does it allow policyholders to opt out of the practice.

Everything Fallbrook .org
https://www.bing.com/ck/a?!&&p=2641...uZXMtdG8taW5zcGVjdC15b3VyLXByb3BlcnR5Lw&ntb=1

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I'm going to side with 100smarble who said this electrician may have simply had poor communication or customer service skills. Having said that, if he sees something that is wrong, and it is completely unrelated to the work he has been asked to do, then I would agree he has a duty to report, but not repair, it. That report should be in writing, for his protection.

If someone says they are ABYC certified, you should verify this, you can do so on ABYCs website, www.abycinc.org I have encountered several imposters in the past few years, those who either have no certification, or they have a certification, but not the one they claim to have.

In the inspections I carry out, I'm routinely confronted by brokers and sellers questioning my findings, often saying, "was that required when the boat was built?", to which I respond, "who cares, if it can electrocute someone, or cause the vessel to catch fire or sink, it needs to be fixed. If there are DC cables that lack over current protection or 120 VAC outlets on weather decks and in heads and galleys and engine rooms without GFCI protection, that's a credible risk. If the seacocks are PVC swimming pools valves, that could cause a vessel to flood and sink" These all represent violations of ABYC standards, and while the standards are voluntary, the marine industry gets better at embracing these with each passing year, and thank goodness they do, it has raised the bar for reliability and safety, and as others have pointed out, it's an unbiased third party standard that can be objectively applied without relying on someone's intuition or opinion.

Somewhat related is vessel owners asking electricians and other professionals to carry out a repair in a manner that the pro knows to be non-compliant. Many feel pressured to do this, because if they don't they will lose the job, we've all been there, or the owner says he or she will sign a waiver. My advice, never, ever compromise your, or ABYC Standards, simply because you were asked to do so. Knowingly doing this will place you squarely in legal, and moral, jeopardy. Are there cases where the Standards can't be practically met, especially on an older vessel? Yes, but they are the exception, and certainly not in the case of over-current protection, there's always a way to install a fuse or circuit breaker. More on that subject here

Part of working successfully with the marine industry is understanding how to task them. Back to the OP, given the opportunity I would have asked for a written list of the work he intended to perform that was above the original request. Often that alone will bring clarity to the situation.

 

[twistedtree]

If you are a surveyor, do you have access to the ABYC standard effective the day the boat was originally launched? Do they archive this for ready access? Just curious.

Good question, and I don't know the answer.

 

[PierreR]

I am nearly a 100% DIY owner. I have been doing this kind of work for the past 50+ years. I have seen my share of poor mechanics and my opinion is such that I think that is greater than 50% of them and that is why I am reluctant to hire anything done.
That said it is also difficult to keep up with the latest changes in technology and installation standards. I am one for believing that DIY should comply with the latest standards when doing work otherwise you are just a hack. No better than the crap certified mechanics. I sometimes question myself and feel a bit stupid for spending the money on marine grade stuff vs much cheaper components knowing full well I am unlikely to recover even the cost of parts when I sell.
When choosing my present boat, the biggest buy-no buy decisions were based around the electrical system aboard. By far the most expensive and dangerous systems on a boat all center around the electrical system. Electrical can also be the most difficult to access.
The reason I bought a Hatteras centered around the modular way they wired and assembled their boats. I makes working on the electrical systems easier and their work was well laid out. I knew that any DIY or crap installations would show up visually quicker on my purchase inspections. Boats with many updates over the years then to have a lot of orphan wires and rats nests. Wiring was well labeled and color coding was starting to become part of their processes by the time my boat was built. I contrast that to the absolutely no common sense installations that I have seen on 70's and 80's and 90's Asian built boats. I did not want to start there as I knew I would not like it and redo everything.
My present boat had one generation of updates and therefore had very little damage done by so called qualified technicians. Even so, I am running into more than I expected.
These forums are sweet in that I can run things past this group and get a critique of what I have planned. It has stopped me from making mistakes already on standards.
I do it for the resale value, for the insurance value and because my own butt is on the line and anyone who buy my boat in the future.

 

[ssobol]

You should count your lucky stars that the ABYC is not equivalent to the FAA. While the ABYC is a recommended practice, ABYC can't fine you or even throw you in jail for not following their guidelines. FAA regulations have the force of federal law.

There is a saying in the aviation industry "An airplane cannot takeoff until the weight of the paperwork exceeds the takeoff weight of the aircraft."

If you think boats are expensive now, what do think would happen if they were regulated like aircraft?

 

[DDW]

The problem with regulations and "recommendations" is that they are too often used as a substitute for knowledge. Absent knowledge, they are probably a good thing. But a knowledgable person might deviate widely from the regulations without creating any danger at all and have a better system. When I feel my knowledge is inadequate, I look to the regulations, otherwise, I use my knowledge. Something like a boat electrical installation is disparate enough that regulations will always be inadequate to address every situation optimally.

 

[PierreR]

You should count your lucky stars that the ABYC is not equivalent to the FAA. While the ABYC is a recommended practice, ABYC can't fine you or even throw you in jail for not following their guidelines. FAA regulations have the force of federal law.

There is a saying in the aviation industry "An airplane cannot takeoff until the weight of the paperwork exceeds the takeoff weight of the aircraft."

If you think boats are expensive now, what do think would happen if they were regulated like aircraft?

To give more weight to this the FAA is powerful enough that piston aircraft are still using leaded gasoline.

 

[Still Boating]

What I find annoying is those that claim ABYC authority with pronouncements that are incorrect. The shop manager at the marina where I keep my boat insisted that use of fuses is not ABYC compliant. Someone should tell Blue Sea.

Am I wrong? From the E-11:

 

[Don L]

the main problem with that is if you need a report for insurance etc.

The main problem with this whole thing are ABYC "experts"

 

[DDW]

Your shop manager may need to work on his reading comprehension.

 

[l00smarble]

What I find annoying is those that claim ABYC authority with pronouncements that are incorrect. The shop manager at the marina where I keep my boat insisted that use of fuses is not ABYC compliant. Someone should tell Blue Sea.

Am I wrong? From the E-11:

View attachment 171706

Not enough of the story to be agast (yet) at the shop manager. Did they say fuses should not exist anywhere on a vessel for any purpose? Or for example may they have said that the use of fuses for 240v shore power distribution is not compliant?

Why not just ask them to cite the paragraph numbers for their claim?

 

[Still Boating]

Not enough of the story to be agast (yet) at the shop manager. Did they say fuses should not exist anywhere on a vessel for any purpose? Or for example may they have said that the use of fuses for 240v shore power distribution is not compliant?

Why not just ask them to cite the paragraph numbers for their claim?

I asked, he couldn't cite anything.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yup, ABYC non compliant. You gonna need multiple boat bucks to fix this stuff.

"What's non-compliant"

My paycheck of course, out from your wallet.

 

[twistedtree]

Not enough of the story to be agast (yet) at the shop manager. Did they say fuses should not exist anywhere on a vessel for any purpose? Or for example may they have said that the use of fuses for 240v shore power distribution is not compliant?

Why not just ask them to cite the paragraph numbers for their claim?

Good points. Where was the fuse/breaker going to be installed? There are definitely cases where fuses are not allowed.

 

[Still Boating]

Where was the fuse/breaker going to be installed? There are definitely cases where fuses are not allowed.

Where are fuses not allowed in the 12V system, according to the E-11?

 

[twistedtree]

Where are fuses not allowed in the 12V system, according to the E-11?

Nothing comes to mind for DC. For AC, there are many cases where you need to break both Line and Neutral, or L1, L2 & N. In those cases you have to use a linked, multi-pole breaker.