When did the ABYC become the FAA of the boating world?

[ancora]

As a DIYer for all of my boating life (50 years) I have not had much truck with boat mechanics. Now that I can no longer do the work, I have been "calling the guy." One of them came on board to do one specific job. After some time looking, he left and said he would send an estimate. I got a laundry list of work that, according to him, needed to be done, with the comment," As a member of the ABYC, I have to follow ABYC standards. If I only fix one issue and something else goes wrong, I could be held responsible. That's not a risk I can take."
Is this common practice for "certified" ABYC boat mechanics? I have no problem with a mechanic adhering to the ABYC standards, but as a boat owner, those standards are not mandatory but voluntary according to the ABYC web page. To bring my boat up to ABYC standards would cost more than the boat, (and many others,) are worth. What say you?

 

[rslifkin]

I generally wouldn't expect standards to be applied retroactively, but if doing significant work to a system then bringing at least the new work, if not the whole system up to standard might be expected.

 

[SteveK]

While I look at ABYC standards as a guide for new work, I certainly will not rebuild a boat because of them to bring to current standard.
Time to get a second opinion. The "guy" should do what the client asks.

 

[Comodave]

Maybe he needs more work???

 

[SteveK]

Maybe he needs more work???

Dave, don't we all. I have a list of wanna do, no have to do. But should I want to hire someone to do something, he can quote for other work without refusing to do what was asked.

 

[tiltrider1]

I need to know more. For many years I owned a 71 Uniflite. Guess what the ABYC standards were for propane back then. I almost immediately upgraded the propane to meet ABYC standards. If some one in a similar position asked me to install a new stove, I would not do it unless I could make the whole propane system meet the current standard.

On the other hand I can’t see forcing ELCI on a ‘71 uniflite just because I was adding a new electrical circuit.

 

[l00smarble]

I run a service company and run into this issue all the time. We choose (not by law) to do all our work to ABYC Standards. This is just a business decision same as some boatbuilders choose to build to ABYC Standards. It gives us a "standard" to work to and gives us backing on any decision on why something is done a certain way. It gives us some protection from liability with a clear "right" way to do things that can be trusted to be safe and reliable.

But I also don't expect that every time we get on a boat we are going to rewire the entire boat to ABYC Standards. This is not practical.

In many cases it is easy to define the beginning and end of our new work and that work is clearly ABYC compliant. Like we add a new circuit to a panel with a new breaker and add a new widget. No problem.

The problem comes in when we can't define what is our work and what we are not servicing. The concept of once you touch it you own it comes into play all the time.

Example: older boat has 50a shorepower with no breaker until the main 50a breaker in the AC panel which is 40ft cable feet from the shorepower inlet. The inlet overheats and heat wicks up the cable and makes it crunchy. It is too short to cut back and reterminate. Customer wants us to just replace the cable from the inlet to the panel like it was. The problem is that to do it right we have to replace the inlet, then add a ELCI breaker breaker ($800 with box) within 10ft of the inlet. Customer just wants it "like it was. It worked for 20 years which is fine" but we choose not to offer that option. Lets say this boat (through a completely unrelated fault) kills a swimmer in the marina. Owner will say "I just had an electrician replace my shorepower system." Guess who is now involved in a law suit.

Or another common example: battery charger fails. Owner wants us to replace the charger with an exact replacement or like kind. Sure...we get the charger with teh same specs and go to swap it out and find that the AC cable has a splce done with wire nuts not in a box 3ft from teh charger and the three DC leads to to three battery banks are unfused at the battery banks. Customer wants us to "just hang the charger and get it working." But we don't install chargers with wire nut AC splices and no overcurrent protection. We are in a no-win situation where we look like the bad guy for stating that we need to do signficant additional work do install the charger.

it gets even more muddy when there is a rats nest of decades of DIY repairs and other poor electrical work. Stuff doesn't work right. Owner wants us to just get it working but once we dig into this bowl of spaghetti there is no easy way to control responsibility.

 

[Moonfish]

100smarble -

Thank you for providing a real world perspective from your end. Like much of life, things are a bit more complicated than they sometimes initially appear.

 

[Don L]

The problem comes in when we can't define what is our work and what we are not servicing. The concept of once you touch it you own it comes into play all the time.

Customer just wants it "like it was. It worked for 20 years which is fine" but we choose not to offer that option. Lets say this boat (through a completely unrelated fault) kills a swimmer in the marina. Owner will say "I just had an electrician replace my shorepower system." Guess who is now involved in a law suit.

That all sounds good and I understand the thinking. BUT, is this kind of thing being reported in the industry? Or is this operating on the "maybe" principal? Because regardless, if a lawyer gets involve they are going to chase the money? What does your insurance company say about it?

 

[Comodave]

I understand and absolutely agree that when working on a particular system that a contractor should bring that system up to standards. But not necessarily all of the systems on the boat.

 

[l00smarble]

That all sounds good and I understand the thinking. BUT, is this kind of thing being reported in the industry? Or is this operating on the "maybe" principal? Because regardless, if a lawyer gets involve they are going to chase the money? What does your insurance company say about it?

I don't understand the question.

When considering horrible events that we hope don't happen - yes it is indeed a "maybe" principal. Insurance itself is a "maybe" principal but we don't go without insurance because it is unlikely to actually use it.

I can pretty much guaranty that my insurance company, if asked, would prefer that we do work to ABYC Standards rather than the way the layman customer requests we do it.

But maybe I'm not answering your question because I don't really understand what you are asking or the point you are trying to make. Not being a smart ass....I just don't fully understand. Please elaborate.

 

[Don L]

OK try this

- are you mostly concerned about getting sued because your work touched something not per ABYC yours is connected/related to

-have you directly asked your insurance company the question

 

[l00smarble]

OK try this

- are you mostly concerned about getting sued because your work touched something not per ABYC yours is connected/related to

I am not concerned about getting sued. I lose no sleep over that because If I were concerned enough to be thinking about lawsuits then we don't do the work that introduces that level of concern.

The easiest example is the charger installation above. Are we ONLY working on the charger itself and we put blinders on to the missing overcurrent protection at the batteries that may be 20+ feet away in a different compartment? Or are we ensuring that we leave the boat with a working and safe charger installation? We insist on the later. We need to be sure the wiring for the charger is right if we are installing a charger and putting our functionality warranty on it.

Staying with this example - when we add the overcurrent protection near the batteries per ABYC E-11.10.1.1.1.1 we noticed that other conductors not related to the charger are connected to the batteries without overcurrent protection. In this case we will document it and bring it to the customer's attention and recommend the repair but we will not let this keep us from completing the charger installation and closing out the work order.

We can't control anything except our own behavior. We do what we think is right and per Standards and if we get sued we get sued. Our position will be much more defensible if our work is by a trained and certified technician to a published and accepted Standard.

We in fact sometimes get called by attorneys or insurance companies or surveyors to come in and examine forensic evidence and give expert witness testimony after disasters like boat fires. Do you know how we critique workmanship that may have been a factor in the disaster? We use the ABYC Standards. It is much easier to be able to cite a published and accepted Standard rather than just using judgement or opinion that can be subjective and able to be challenged by an expert on the opposite side of the case with a different incentive.

-have you directly asked your insurance company the question

no.

 

[tiltrider1]

This is why I said more info is needed. I wouldn’t be willing to replace a charger with out adding over current protection regardless of year of boat manufacturer. I would also preform a leakage test. If the boat past I probably wouldn’t force an ELCI. If the boat failed my leakage test I probably wouldn’t be willing to do the charger until the leakage issue was sorted out.

 

[Don L]

So while I understand your position, I see it mostly as just your position. We all know there is no for older boats to meet ABYC and we don't know the legal/insurance position involved.

If I were a business doing this type work I would surely ask my lawyer and insurance company this stuff.

I am now unwatching as I am not all that interested in debating

 

[ancora]

I "called the guy" because I was losing coolant. He said he would pressure test the heat exchanger. All he brought to the boat was a clipboard. Is it ABYC policy to inspect the whole boat to find non-ABYC discrepancies? If it is, I will avoid calling anyone who is ABYC certified.
P.S. I wound up adding leak detector dye to the heat exchanger and found one of the hoses to the water heater was leaking. No, I won't "call the guy." I'll do it myself.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah, clipboard vs tool box...

What's up with that. Sounds like a ripoff outfit even if they are ABYC.

I would expect in addition to the notebook and pen, a flashlight, a probe of tongs, a bendable "borescope" thing, pliers, screwdrivers, you know basic "look-see" kit. Yeah a tool box or duffle. Not just a clipboard & pen.

 

[fractalphreak]

I'm hoping you encountered someone with poor customer service skills.

My only experience with this is from our survey/insuring of NWD. Our surveyor noted 9 things that were safety items to ensure the vessel was safe to use. My insurance wanted to see a survey before insuring the boat; they identified those 9 items as things I needed to document remedied within 30 days or something of getting the boat. A lot of them were basic, like fire extinguisher quantity and type, and updated flares. A few were just obviously a major concern - like the unfused wire leaving the common DC + bus to the back of the engine room to a bus bar, with half a dozen other wires taking DC to the heater, the aft head macerator, etc, all with no fuse protection. They were all pretty easy and inexpensive to remedy and document to the insurance company's satisfaction. Of the 9, he cited two with ABYC specifications, and one of them he recommended a certified marine electrician do the work.

Our survey noted 36 other things, some of which were discussed in regards to more modern standards for some items. I know he didn't give the boat a 100% ABYC compliance check.

I get the service people wanting to ensure they don't touch something and put it back that doesn't meet or, like the charger story above) fail to update that install, to current standards. There is a long history of major lawsuits over the few instances that cause loss. My son has ABYC credentials (electrician, systems, and something with corrosion I think) and works for a yard in our area as their electrician/systems guy. For the service people in this industry, it is their certification they know how to do things right, and it takes time to get them. Part of AYBC is standardizing and professionalizing the marine trades in terms of education of tradespeople and their certifications. In my son's case, he completed a 2 yr Marine Maintenance/Technology AA degree. He doesn't want any part of a boat catching fire, sinking, etc so all his work, and the work of his yard, is done to ABYC. I know though that they don't pull out a clipboard and do a 100% ABYC check of the vessels. But if the customer wants them to do it, it will need to be done to current standards.

It doesn't always rub some of us well that know its worked for 40 years, what's different now?

Its unfortunate you had this experience. I'm dreading the future - aging and not wanting to pay someone to do something I should be able to, and not have complete control over the job.

 

[Fleming]

I think 100smarble laid it out pretty well. I agree completely and will give another example of why people hate to do partial work over top of someone else's poor work (or old, improper work). The example of painting a hull. A good quality painter/sprayer who has a ton of experience and can spray a boat hull with a nice, uniform coat and no runs is worth a premium. But he's not going to want to spray someone else's (who he doesn't know) prep work. If the 'expert' sprays someone's poor prep work the final product is going to look like crap no matter how good the guy with the sprayer was. The expert with the spray gun is only going to want to spray the prep work he supervised, it's his reputation on the line.

Same thing with electrical work. If I come in and see rats nests & standards violations everywhere, do I really want my reputation sullied down the line by people seeing the rest of what's going on and knowing I did work there?

 

[psneeld]

It is kinda funny though.... houses, RVs and boats all are comprised f components that range from great and reliable to really bad on all levels. Sometimes those components are just new or bad models from a highly respected supplier that wind up even in high end builder's products.

So depending on the work requested, it's very easy to separate some jobs from the total mess otherwise.

Like an inverter install. It' sonly a segment of 2 electrical systems and can easily be inserted into a rat's nest of other work and look highly professional and work fine as long as it is fed and can feed circuits that will do the job but may not meet all ABYC requirements. Been there... done that.

The biggest difference to me is system addition versus upgrade and how entangled it becomes.

 

[Portage_Bay]

The first two questions I ask a potential hire are
1-Are you ABYC certified ?
2-What is your experience doing the kind of work I want to hire you for?

 

[Shrew]

This is preposterous. The ABYC is not a licensing agency. It's a published standard, not a code. Even an electrician or a plumber isn't compelled to address all code violations they witness when they are asked to do work. Unless the work they're doing is coming directly in contact with the code violation.

On the one hand this is a guy trying to drum up business in a somewhat unethical way. On the other hand, if the work needs to be done.......

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. S. Unfortunately, the insurance industry seems to think AYBC recommendations ARE legal code. Good luck trying to convince them otherwise.

 

[psneeld]

I have to be amused, nothing else can substitute for getting old enough to only see shades of gray about so many things.

Boat electrical systems account for a lot of statistics resulting in boat losses, even deaths. Some on here discuss reverently the necessity to do everything "best practice" even though the lofty ABYC admits that's not always practical.

As far as using technicians being ABYC being certified buy not licensed...true it doesn't mean they are good or bad, just certified. Seems that's the best we can do for now if you want your systems about as good as they can get. Does that mean a DIY that follows, exceeds, or modifies ABYC standards work means it is inferior? Not in my book, but how are the less experienced supposed to know?

We mostly gravitate towards medical professional that are board certified and/or state licensed because it involves our safety, so what about boating safety issues?

Granted a lifetime of boating DIY may make some of us more than qualified against a brand new certified ABYC tech, but as a prospective buyer of a boat with limited maintenance skills.... how the heck are they supposed to know?


Now throw in insurance companies and lightly experienced or just plain bad surveyors and the system becomes totally incomprehensible to the new to boating buyers of complicated vessels. Who are they going to listen to?

So how are good, knowledgeable boaters able to sell their older boats with the deck stacked against them? I don't have the answer, especially if you aren't willing to almost give away your boat in a flooded market of used boats. I know someone will debate that but I don't care as I have been around long enough that will debate it but for many (not all) boats, I know that's true.

I too think the way ABYC standards absolutely applying to older boats is silly, but SO many used boats are in such bad condition systems wise, they do need significant safety upgrades, even if not all the way to ABYC standards.

So somewhere in the middle of the ABYC and anti-ABYC debate lies the answer to selling older boats. The question is how do we get the entire industry from buyer to insurance Co. on the same page?

 

[Cargile]

As a DIYer for all of my boating life (50 years) I have not had much truck with boat mechanics. Now that I can no longer do the work, I have been "calling the guy." One of them came on board to do one specific job. After some time looking, he left and said he would send an estimate. I got a laundry list of work that, according to him, needed to be done, with the comment," As a member of the ABYC, I have to follow ABYC standards. If I only fix one issue and something else goes wrong, I could be held responsible. That's not a risk I can take."
Is this common practice for "certified" ABYC boat mechanics? I have no problem with a mechanic adhering to the ABYC standards, but as a boat owner, those standards are not mandatory but voluntary according to the ABYC web page. To bring my boat up to ABYC standards would cost more than the boat, (and many others,) are worth. What say you?

What a sales pant load. A legend in his own mind. I would find someone else.

 

[Bacchus]

I get it that ABYC is not a code and not mandatory... however... on the other hand there is nothing else that I'm aware of?
So what should insurance Co's rely on? Or would you suggest insurance NOT rely on surveyors that only have ABYC Stds or their own seat of the pants judgement?
Would you suggest insurance Co's Insure w/o ANY inspection?
Everyone has the choice to self insure or only elect liability and self insure owner property loss.

If there were no stds can you imagine how many unsafe DIY projects / installs there would be? Would you buy a boat with a large # of items NOT meeting ABYC Stds?

I get that the use/enforcement is not always logical but there are few alternatives that can be applied universally. Would you hold a mfgr to ABYC Stds but suggest owners can ignore those practices and Stds and buyers should overlook non- compliance?

 

[guy with a boat]

The only thing worse than having these standards would be having no standards at all. Despite being the cause of frustration in some situations, ABYC standards have gone a long way in making boating better and safer.

The guy in the OP’s first post sounds like every car dealer that does an “inspection” and provides a huge work list for nonsense repairs when all you want is an oil change.

 

[Don L]

I was looking at the wiring schematics of a 1980 Albin. An ABYC electrician would write 2 pages of comments just on the wire colors on that schematic

 

[DDW]

When you buy a house, the bank will lend money and the insurance company will insure it, even if it doesn't meet current codes. And an older house may differ from current codes in substantial ways, both structurally and electrically. Further, neither the bank, nor the insurance company typically want any inspection at all.

The same is true of cars and airplanes (though airplanes do require inspection periodically for other reasons). Boats are treated differently.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I really don't worry about this stuff much. I don't need inspections, I carry liability only, I paid cash.

When I sell this (over 55 year old boat) I'm sure It will go cash. Cash will be so much cheaper then and I'll sell it fast. Yeah, ABYC. Ralph Nader and airbags. Please just wrap us all up in foam pack so nothing will hurt us.

Inspectors, detectors, and helicopter parents. We have to protect the children. Amazing.