Whats under the teak decks?

[patzfan4eva]

Have made an agreement to purchase a 1980 34ft*CHB tribcabin and the decking could use some work.* After discussing with my wife and brother-in-law who has a 36 grand banks, we think it might make more sense to pull the teak deck and put down noneskid.* I understand that 1980 should be full fiberglass cabins but does anyone know whats under the decking? is it marine plywood or fiberglass, please understand i am asking about a 1980 not 1976 and eariler.* thanks for the help!!

David

 

[coyote454]

David,

On my boat it 'appears' to be glass under the teak decking, although I've never pulled up boards to verify. *A couple plugs had to be replaced a while back, and it seemed like glass underneath.


But I was wondering why you want to take up the deck to put in non-skid? *There are several folks with teak decks who simply put the coating over the existing deck with great results, and a LOT less*aggravation*and time. *The products they have out today make it almost unnecessary to strip the old decking off.


I have an '82 CHB and am considering non-skid down the road perhaps. I'm sure you're aware to check the top of the fuel cells (as best you can) for signs of leaking thru the decks. *If there's no sign of leaking, you should be okay.


If you have concern about the tanks and can't get to the top for inspection, there should be inspection ports in the side of the tanks. *You may be able to open these and check the tank from the inside (making sure, of course, that the fuel level is lower than the ports).


You'll love your little CHB. *They're really stout boats and will take more of a beating than you will want to put up with. *The 120 Lehmans are also about bulletproof (okay, a little*noisy*and old school design, but bulletproof)!




Mike
Brookings, Oregon

 

[patzfan4eva]

Thanks Mike! Good info to consider. I'd like to keep the decks but the Wife really likes the noneskid and have heard alot of horror stories about glass over teak decking. Perhaps it would be easier but not sure better! Anyway, once i pull up the deck it'll be easier to decide!

Thanks again!

David

 

[coyote454]

patzfan4eva wrote:

I'd like to keep the decks but the Wife really likes the noneskid and have heard alot of horror stories about glass over teak decking.

David,

I wasn't suggesting putting glass over the original decking because, as you said, it would be a horror story. *No, there are several non-skid materials that can be painted over the decking. *Kind of like a Rhino-lining material for truck beds, but developed for the marine*environment. *If you look back at earlier threads in the 'general maintenance' section you'll find discussion on the subject.


There are also earlier threads where people posted pictures taken while they took up their decks to lay down new teak. *Major work.


Anyway, good luck in the purchase. *You're certainly in an area where the 'little ship' would have many places to go for a day or weekend cruise. *Beautiful country down there!




Mike
Brookings, Oregon
(formally Morro Bay, CA)




*

 

[Marin]

NEVER put fiberglass over the teak decking. The teak works and swells and shrinks with the moisture in the air and heat and cold and it will warp and crack your glass overlay in short order. This applies to any surface or coating you put on top of the teak, not just glass. It might work for awhile but you'll have a "live" deck underneath the coating and eventually it will mess up the coating or surface pretty good and you'll be faced with doing it all over again but correctly this time.

If you are contemplating get rid of the teak, that's what you have to do--- get rid of it. Then prepare the upper surface of the subdeck sandwich properly and then apply whatever new surface you're going to apply.

Most boats with teak decking, including Grand Banks, use a cored subdeck. There is a layer of thicker fiberglass on top of a layer of heavy marine ply on top of a thinner layer of glass. The teak planks are screwed down on top of the upper fiberglass layer. I suspect CHB did the same thing.

The teak decking adds stiffness, so if you decide to remove the teak decking you should add probably two layers of fiberglass on top of the fiberglass-ply-fiberglass sandwich (after prepping the upper surface of the subdeck properly) followed by the non-skid surface of your choice. The stiffness of the subdeck sandwich will vary between boat makes, but the manufacturer took into account the fact there would be teak planks adding stiffness and so calculated the thickness of the subdeck sandwich accordingly. Removing the teak generally results in a too-flexible deck, hence the need for additional fiberglass stiffening.

Doing this properly is not a walk in the park. A fellow on our dock did this a couple of years ago with his Island Gypsy. He replaced the teak planks with four layers of new fiberglass, which was overkill according to the retired marine engineer on our dock, but you could probably land a plane on the Island Gypsy's deck now. It took him a summer and a half and the end result looks better than if the factory had done it. But it's a LOT of work to do it properly, and if you do it improperly it will greatly lower the value of your boat. He told me after it was all done that had he known how much work it would turn out to be he never would have started. But he's happy with the end result and rightly so.

 

[coyote454]

David,

While everyone's got his own opinion concerning the necessity of removing the teak decking prior to applying a non-skid coating, here's what I was talking about earlier.

http://charlesculotta.com/index.php/repairs/79-teak-deck-leaks.html


Charles is a well respected cruiser with more miles under his keel and more repairs written about than I can imagine, but he never removed his decking and his non-skid application has lasted more than a decade with no signs of wear to date.


He's just left cruising his boat for cruising an RV, but his website is still valuable.


http://charlesculotta.com/


Good luck and happy boating.




Mike
Brookings, Oregon

 

[patzfan4eva]

Was off for a while, but thanks for the insight!

Guru, you said the deck is fiberglass - plywood- fiberglass is that your understanding of a 1980 CHB deck?

Applying glass cloth? necessary? or can I apply a Epoxy Resin only to strengthen the deck and then apply a non skid material?

Anyone's*help is greatly appreciated!

David

 

[FF]

It is worth investigating as the largest pile of TT made were house plywood with a single layer of glass over.

A deck mold is quite expensive to produce and very difficult to change, as is a cabin mold.

Any eyeball can pick up the slightest imperfection , so it was cheaper to use FLAT ply and not take risk.

Most of these boats were entry level , for novice boaters , so few figured folks would still be fixing them 3 decades later.

 

[Anode]

Check out my photo album. Properly removing teak and reglassing decks is not for everybody. The results were worth it for me.

 

[Marin]

patzfan4eva wrote:

you said the deck is fiberglass - plywood- fiberglass is that your understanding of a 1980 CHB deck?

Applying glass cloth? necessary? or can I apply a Epoxy Resin only to strengthen the deck and then apply a non skid material?

As the fiberglass--ply--- fiberglass subeck sandwich is a very common way of making a deck that is used by Grand Banks, Island Gypsy*and many others I would say it's a safe bet that is the way the CHB decks are made.* But I don't know for sure so you should ask a shipwright who has worked on these boats to get a definitive answer.

You need the added*cloth and resin*for the stiffness.* It's a not a question of strength--- the subdeck sandwich is strong enough--- it's a question of stiffness.* A strong deck can still flex a lot, and that is apparently what happens with many boats that were built with teak decking when you remove the decking.* And an overly-flexible subdeck will very likely crack whatever finish you put over it.

Judging by posts I've seen on other forums there are some boats out there that supposedly have a stiff enough subdeck that a finish surface and non-skid coat can be put right on the prepared subdeck and everything's fine.* But I don't know what those kinds of boats are.* With very few exceptions, all the posts and direct comments I've heard from people who've done this or know how to do it right have said fiberglass layers over the subdeck are required if the deck is to retain sufficient stiffness.

Again, a qualified shipwright who's done this kind of job on your kind of boat would be the right person to ask.* Forum advice is worth about what you pay for it

*

 

[Peter B]

I have a CHB trawler 1975 vintage, and can confirm what Marin says. It's decks were teak/fibreglass/core/fibreglass. The core got soft, so the previous owner had a yard remove the old teak and then for the side decks and cockpit they laid down new core in the form of ply, (nowadays a non-porous synthetic core mat would be better), then glassed over that again several layers, the last with non-skid, and the end result is excellent. Why they ever screwed them down I don't know, the trouble that caused could have been anticipated, and epoxying them down would have been quite possible even back then, like they do now, and what trouble that would have saved. I guess FF put his finger on it when he said...."Most of these boats were entry level, for novice boaters , so few figured folks would still be fixing them 3 decades later."
I guess they totally underestimated just how well they would otherwise last, and how popular as a type of craft they would become. Unfortunately, (and this is directly relevant to your question David), they did not re-lay a core down on the foredeck before they re-glassed, as they thought it was ok without. Well it is - just - but it is more flexy than the rest of the deck, and I always feel it a pity they just glassed over the old teak bed without that extra stiffening. If I had been involved at the time, I would have gone that extra mile. Does that answer your question?

PS. If money was no object, and one wanted to go another way, by not laying a lot of extra layers, or a type of core, one could remove the teak, and glass over it to a smooth finish, then have experts lay down synthetic teak, which is glued down, eg Flexiteek, and that would look nice and stiffen the deck.* However, I know a few owners who have used it, and it looks fantastic, but gets quite hot underfoot in the sun.* And it's not cheap, but cheaper than real teak.* If I won Lotto, I'd probably do all my decks over with it.....but I guess that's not likely....so I paint them every 3-4 yrs with Interdeck.


-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 20th of August 2010 06:15:46 AM

 

[Marin]

Peter B wrote:

Why they ever screwed them down I don't know, the trouble that caused could have been anticipated, and epoxying them down would have been quite possible even back then, like they do now, and what trouble that would have saved. I guess FF put his finger on it when he said...."Most of these boats were entry level, for novice boaters , so few figured folks would still be fixing them 3 decades later."*

Actually the screwed-down teak decking was used by everybody back then.* Grand Banks deck planks were screwed down until relatively recently when they switched to gluing the planks down.* I believe even Fleming screwed their decks down at first.* Chris Craft cruisers from the same period and earlier all have screwed down deck planks.* So I don't think it was a matter of being entry level, I think it was a matter of being the accepted technology of the time.

I suspect that in the 1970s when many manufacturers started introducing fiberglass "trawlers" adhesion technology wasn't what it has become more recently.* The teak planks, particularly the curved ones, can put a fair amount of stress on whatever is holding them down, at least until they become set in the curve.* Companies like Grand Banks smeared the entire subdeck surface with an adhesive bedding compound (it's nasty stuff) but the only way they felt they could ensure that the planks would stay put was with screws.

Gluing the deck planks is a recent introduction at GB.* All the GBs from the 1990s in the big charter fleet in our marina have screwed-down decks.* And with original selling prices of $500,000 to $1 million, one would probably not consider these "entry level" boats.



*

 

[FF]

"Actually the screwed-down teak decking was used by everybody back then."

This is true , but the teak decking may not be as it looks.

In most TT shops the teak deck planking was simply a "looks" item.Not a real deck.

A very wide plank would be routed to seem as if it were individual planks , black goop would be in the Faux seams and 19 out of 20 of the plugs were installed in the shop.

When only a couple of screws hold down a 8 or 10 inch wide plank, the loads are grotesque!

No wonder with so few screws per acre water got to leak down into the exterior (at best ) plywood.

Fly bridges seem to be the first area to go (taking out the pilot house below) as there are many later fastenings of stuff , simply screwed down.

When I started my outfitting business , about half the work consisted of finding electrical hassles , caused by screws from the "teak deck" (an option) simply being driven into the wiring.

After creating a device , a bell vibrator to change the DC into pulsating DC , the hard part was usually getting rid of the owner, so he wouldn't know how easy it was to find the break.

AHH the things we did for $10.00 an hour during furlough.

FF

 

[Peter B]

I think I like your explanation better Marin - I don't like to think of my vessel as 'entry level' owned by 'novice boaters'. I don't consider I'm that now after doing this stuff for 32 years. Still, it would have been nice if they had considered alternatives less damaging the the deck below, once the teak started to crack up. I think I'm right in saying epoxy glue was developed in the late 60s...? No, earlier than that by quite a long way - check this out..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy_glue#History

 

[koliver]

Easyest spot to look is in the anchor locker. lying on your back on the vee berth with your head through the locker door, you should be able to see the underside of the deck. If there is a bronze 4" pipe through the deck, you will also be able to see the composition of the entire deck, whether it has a layer of plywood, and if so, how thick it is.

 

[Marin]

Peter B wrote:Still, it would have been nice if they had considered alternatives less damaging the the deck below, once the teak started to crack up.

I agree, epoxy has been around forever it seems.* What I don't know is if the stuff available in the 60s,70s, 80s, etc. was capable of long-term securing of teak planks to a fiberglass-surfaced subdeck.* I recall when the Gugeon (sp?) brothers came out with their WEST system.* It was a major hot topic in*WoodenBoat magazine which I subscribed to back in the later 70s.* So epoxy may not be all that "old" when it comes to marine applications, I don't know.

Another unknown is how long a modern glued-down teak deck will stay glued down.* The planks shrink and swell and move around a bit plus have to conform to the sheer of the deck surface--- any glue holding them down has its work cut out for it. *Manufacturers like Grand Banks have been doing this for only a few years so far.* Our boat and its original screwed-down*deck is now 37 years old.* What will a glued down deck be like in 37*years?* Might be fine, might not.**

We've *got some deck seams that need re-doing and I've been re-working them when the weather has been really hot and dry (a rarity up here).* We had the deck--- which was in very bad shape when we bought the boat--- regrooved and reseamed about ten years ago but the aft third of the boat wasn't done until damper weather in the fall and I think this affected the adhesion of the seam sealant.* Plus the seam sealants on the market today--- specifically TDS--- are far superior to what was available ten years ago.* Fortunately the shipwright who regrooved and reseamed our deck taught me how to do it properly--- at least the re-seaming part--- and it's actually pretty easy.* Like everything else, it's all in the preparation.

But the teak itself, despite being sanded way too many times by previous owners and*now pretty much*at its minimum serviceable thickness is still serviceable.* So hopefully we can keep it going another bunch of years as I don't want to pay to replace it and I don't care for a fiberglass, non-skid deck surface, at least not on a GB.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 24th of August 2010 09:45:07 PM

 

[Peter B]

The attraction to the glued down issue is even if they do eventually lift, the under-surface has not been breached - therefore no leaks - no rusted out fuel tanks/damaged interior, and they can be stripped up and glued down again probably. However, epoxies are so damn strong, I doubt they'll lift before they are worn out. Time, of course, will tell.

 

[Fotoman]

Anode wrote:

Check out my photo album. Properly removing teak and reglassing decks is not for everybody. The results were worth it for me.

Chip, I've looked at all your pictures. You've done an amazing job. Kudos!

*

 

[Marin]

Peter B wrote:no rusted out fuel tanks...

From everything I've been told the issue of rusted out fuel tanks (on the tops of the tanks) has little or nothing to do with whether or not the boat has a teak deck but has everything to do with how well the fuel filler fittings are bedded to the deck.* I know people who have boats that were built with fiberglass-surfaced decks who have had the exact same tank-rust issues as boats with teak decks.* Water on deck works its way past the filler hardware and runs down the fill hoses to collect on the top of the tank.

*

 

[Pineapple Girl]

Fotoman wrote:


Anode wrote:

Check out my photo album. Properly removing teak and reglassing decks is not for everybody. The results were worth it for me.

Chip, I've looked at all your pictures. You've done an amazing job. Kudos!

*

I have to agree.** Incredibly transformation!!* In the course of shopping we saw several boats where the teak decks had been removed and replaced with non-skid. NONE came close to the quality of your work.

*

 

[FF]

Water on deck works its way past the filler hardware and runs down the fill hoses to collect on the top of the tank.

UNQUESTIONABLY

The problem is folks believe in the goop fairy (cousin of the tooth fairy) that some majic bedding does not wear out.

8- 10 years is perhaps late but about the time Everything installed thru the deck musty be lifted and re bedded.

It is easy to modify a boat so disaster does not result from inattention.

An example , our launch has a 2 in deck plate like most boats.

The modification was to toss the fill plate , shorten&replace the old fuel hose and use a pipe nipple and cap. The deck got a 8 inch bronze screw down cover.

So if the cover leaks , in time , its not leaking water into the fuel .

5200 sucks as the stuff is far to hard to seperiate and clean off at intervals.

Good ancient Dolphinite , makes re bedding an easy task and seals at least as well as stickum goop.

 

[Anode]

Thanks Fotoman and Jennifer for the kind compliments. It's been a labor of love for both my wife and me.
I'll to get the photo album updated soon as we continue to make 'progress' on Scout.

 

[jleonard]

<q><q><q>5200 sucks as the stuff is far to hard to seperate and clean off at intervals


Well, I am a fan of 5200 as I have had excellent results (and luck) with it for sealing deck hardware.

However not sure I'd use it on the teak decks. We just re-caulked a bunch of our decks including the entire flybridge with TDS 440 and that stuff seems ( pun intended) to work great. I'd probably use that for deck fittings.
By the way we re-caulked as a PM task and I have to say it was no where near as difficult or time consuming as I have read.


</q></q></q>

-- Edited by jleonard on Thursday 26th of August 2010 02:44:00 PM

 

[Tom.B]

I've been told before that, really, 5200 should only be for projects below the waterline. If you ever see the need to take it apart, never use 5200.

 

[Marin]

GonzoF1 wrote:

I've been told before that, really, 5200 should only be for projects below the waterline. If you ever see the need to take it apart, never use 5200.

Good advice.* For bedding hardware to our teak deck we generally use Lifecaulk.* For bedding the big laminated teak block that supports our anchor windlass we used Dolfinite.* 5200 would be a very bad thing to use because if you ever had to remove the hardware the upper layer of wood would separate before the hardware did.

The only thing that "encourages" 5200 to loosen its grip is heat.* I've never had occasion to do this, but I've been told by shipwrights we know that that's the one weapon against 5200.* That or being able to get*a thin, sharp*blade between the hardware and the surface it's fastened to.

Where 5200 is very good is at holding down things like hawses in the gunwales, backing plates for deck cleats, and so on.* Things that are not likely to ever need removing, or if they do, the reason for it will be pretty major and loosening the grip of 5200 will be the least of the problems to be dealt with.

*

 

[Tom.B]

I used it (well... someone else did) on the thru-bolts to my transom zinc. Would you not want to use it on all thru-hulls and seacocks?

 

[jleonard]

I use 5200 for everything below the waterline. It works great and I have never had any real trouble removing it. Even when used above the waterline. A little heat or simply cutting thru part of the bond with a stiff putty knife works for me. A dab of*WD 40 lets the knife slip right in

 

[Andy G]

patzfan4eva wrote:

*

"Have made an agreement to purchase a 1980 34ft*CHB tribcabin and the decking could use some work.* After discussing with my wife and brother-in-law who has a 36 grand banks, we think it might make more sense to pull the teak deck and put down noneskid.* I understand that 1980 should be full fiberglass cabins but does anyone know whats under the decking? is it marine plywood or fiberglass"

From my experience in redecking a 1978 34'CHB & a 1981 36' IG* it's probably best you don't look, unless you really have to. Have to, means spongy decks. If so take core samples, being careful not to go right through, take the samples around the filler caps and any through deck fittings. Also take some samples toward the stern, water follows gravity(usually)From my experience the decks are of a sandwich construction, if you are lucky they may be marine ply or in the case of IG's solid hardwood planks glued to the lower glass membrane.

*If you are unlucky they can be of anything that was to hand when laying down the boat.*That includes the wooden packing cases that the boat parts were delivered in! I kid you not.

*We have just finished re decking the IG, at first we thought we only needed to take up the old teak(954 screws).HA, 22 core sample later we gave up and removed the entire lower deck, dug out the mush, replaced with 9mm composite and bedded it in with 45kg of epoxy, replaced the old glass top, buit it up*to ready it for its new 9mm teak deck(love the teak)which, as is the way today, will be glued* not screwed. Not glued with epoxy however but a*newer*moreflexible sealant, (ask me in ten years).This took 2 of us 6 weeks full time, god knows what we would have paid if we got a yard to do it.

I mention all*this, not to either depress/impress you but to acknowledge the incredible restoration work that Anode and his wife have undertaken & achieved*rebuilding 'Scout' I know the*amount* of *work*that each of those pictures**entails, well done both of you/

By the way Anode*is that a mighty Fein tool I see in your hand?

*

 

[Anode]

Thanks "Shrimp" for the compliments.
I agree with your 'don't look unless you have to' statement. After 25 or 30 years it's going to be ugly under there.
We were lucky that Scout was built with end cut balsa coring and the fiberglass was structurally sound with the teak deck*removed. I really didn't know what I was getting into at the time.*I still felt it prudent to reglass the decks.
You were correct in giving my wife Julie credit for her part in this project. She truly loves this boat and is up there working every chance she gets.
I need to update the photo album as we're making continued progress.
Yes that is the mighty Fein tool in the photos. We have two of them. His and hers. No way I could live without my Fein's. Mortised in some piano hinges with one last weekend. Slick.
There's also*two Fein vacuums*on the boat as we use*dust collection on the*sanders. Again...his and hers.*
Love to see some photos of your deck project if you have some.
Thanks again for the nice compliment.
Chip and Julie

 

[mike sullivan]

Check out my photo album. Properly removing teak and reglassing decks is not for everybody. The results were worth it for me.

how can i see the pictures ? i have 1979 chb 34 i am ripping out my deck now to replace with fiberglass non skid i have run into shabby repairs where someone scabbed in new wood i need to replace rear starboard and part of the cockpit sub decks and would love any input
thanks mike