water in port velvet drive

[PNM]

I recently put my '79 Ocean trawler in the water after a long lay up (8 years) and discovered water in the port velvet drive. The water has probably been there for years.

I replaced the oil cooler, pumped out the tranny twice, replaced the ATF, and ran for 2-3 minutes. Though it shifted smoothly from forward to neutral to reverse, I discovered the rear seal had a slow leak.

We pulled the reduction gear and found a rusty aft bearing and the tailpiece had a slightly damaged race where the bearing rides.

We definitely need to replace the aft tailpiece and bearing, but I am a bit worried the bearing on the forward end of the tranny will be in the same condition - and who knows what else, we cannot see, has been damaged by rust.

I'm wondering if a rebuild transmission might be the best answer or maybe rebuilding my transmission.

Or should I just put it back together and see what I have. If it fails or makes a bunch of noise, I could replace it then.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[OldDan1943]

IF the trans has good bones, why buy another cow to get more bones?
You really wont know what's going on until you open it up and look.
I would start by removing the trans oil cooler clean, pressure test and see if that was the problem.

 

[Comodave]

I would just go ahead and rebuild it and be done with it.

 

[jungpeter]

We definitely need to replace the aft tailpiece and bearing, but I am a bit worried the bearing on the forward end of the tranny will be in the same condition - and who knows what else, we cannot see, has been damaged by rust.

I'm wondering if a rebuild transmission might be the best answer or maybe rebuilding my transmission.

Or should I just put it back together and see what I have. If it fails or makes a bunch of noise, I could replace it then.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

Seems like you've answered your own question, as you've already taken it apart. My thoughts: REBUILD THE TRANSMISSION. These things don't heal themselves. If you simply stuff it all back together and "...it makes a bunch of noise", make sure and have alternate propulsion available 24/7. You'll very likely need it, and in very short order.

Regards,

Pete

 

[diver dave]

U might get lucky. If power plant is down angle, free water will sit towards the rear.

 

[Choices]

Just rebuilt mine at 6k hours.

We pulled it in just a couple hours. Put it trunk of car and shipped it off for a rebuild.

Not that big a deal. One guy can carry it, about 125#.

Cost $4k total.

Replace dampner plate and cooler while there, all new switches.

 

[Choices]

Go dig around my blog, grandbankschoices, and you can check it out.

 

[rgano]

Is this one of the dreaded drop-center BWs for which parts are near unobtainium?

 

[PNM]

To rebuild or not to rebuild my Velvet Drive

Thanks for your wisdom.

I replaced the ATF cooler and flushed the velvet drive twice. That's when I found the slow ATF leak out of the back of the reduction gear rear seal area.

My mechanic pulled the reduction gear to replace the rear seal. That's when he found the rusted bearing and race.

The transmission is still mounted to the engine. The bearing is on the aft end of the shaft that runs through the reduction gear. That said, the same ATF flows through the entire tranny including the reduction gear.

So, if we decide to rebuild the tranny, it has to be pulled.

The reduction gear weighs about 50#, the tranny about 100#. No simple task to get it out of the tight spot behind the port engine.

The engine does slope down to the rear, so it is likely water tended to collect around the rear seal and bearing.

My mechanic is very respected and thinks we should put it back together with the new bearing and seal, do a good job of purging any water remaining, and run it.

This is a twin engine Ocean 40+2 Trawler and I could get home on one engine, if necessary.

My bigger concern is could a hard failure of the forward bearing lead to more serious damage. Or would I likely hear some noise and detect some high temps in the transmission before that happens.

 

[jleonard]

When I rebuilt the VD in my Albin I was told the water and oil will not come out of reverse cylinder unless the tranny is upside down. Then it can drain out of that top port.
My reverse cyl was rusty but reparable.

 

[Comodave]

When I rebuilt the VD in my Albin I was told the water and oil will not come out of reverse cylinder unless the tranny is upside down. Then it can drain out of that top port.
My reverse cyl was rusty but reparable.

Probably easier to pull the transmission than to turn the boat upside down…

 

[PNM]

Water in Velvet Drive

A little more information.

I have pictures of the bottom and top of the reduction gear. There appears to be a little rust with no pitting in the bottom of the gear housing. In general 99% of the gear blades appear to be perfect. A few blades show a light surface discoloration.

So, I think the down angle suggestion is correct. About 1/3 of the aft bearing was rusty, to include some dark chrystalization of rust particles. But none of that appears to invaded the reduction gear.

I sent an optical scope down the oil filler hole on the transmission and found no rust or discolorization of any kind on the metal I could see, mostly housing walls, from that limited view. I went all the way to the oil sump and saw - a little - residual ATF that was almost clear red.

The transmission nameplate is hard to read, but it appears to show a model 10-18-008 and a ratio of 2.10.

I have heard that some models of the VD have paper plates that would quickly degrade in water. Since the drive set in contaminated ATF for 8 years and has been run about 5 times in the last year for a total of 45 minutes, I suspect this model has metal plates.

I am starting to think that I do not have heavy rust damage to the intermediate and forward bearing or the metal plates, but I cannot know.

Any further comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[diver dave]

Not sure about the paper plate theory. I recall bronze and fiber, alternating. Unless really old, there is a metal mesh filter at the lower sump hose connection. Worth a look see. Big hex bushing there “from memory”

 

[SoWhat]

The transmission nameplate is hard to read, but it appears to show a model 10-18-008 and a ratio of 2.10.

Yes, 10-18-008 is a standard 72C model. Easy to repair and parts are readily available. Bearings are all standard

I have heard that some models of the VD have paper plates that would quickly degrade in water. Since the drive set in contaminated ATF for 8 years and has been run about 5 times in the last year for a total of 45 minutes, I suspect this model has metal plates.

Yes, Probably metallic friction disks.


I am starting to think that I do not have heavy rust damage to the intermediate and forward bearing or the metal plates, but I cannot know.

If the rear bearing is pitted and corroded, the other bearings are probably in the same condition.

I disagree with your 'respected' mechanic. Rebuilding is simple and should be less than $750. You can not remove water from the reverse pump without disassembling it.

XX

 

[PNM]

rebuilding a velvet drive after water damage

A local transmission shop is estimating $2,000-$2500 to rebuild my VD, which includes replacing the coupler, because of the rough surface caused by the bad seal.

Does the seal turn on the coupler or just sit on the coupler? A reputable rebuild shop said the coupler can be repaired with a "Redi Sleeve or Speedi Sleeve"?

 

[jleonard]

Probably easier to pull the transmission than to turn the boat upside down…

NOW you tell me! Where were you when I needed you? LOL

 

[jleonard]

Not sure about the paper plate theory. I recall bronze and fiber, alternating. Unless really old, there is a metal mesh filter at the lower sump hose connection. Worth a look see. Big hex bushing there “from memory”

I had paper plates in mine that were pretty much disintegrated. Replaced with bronze.

 

[SoWhat]

A local transmission shop is estimating $2,000-$2500 to rebuild my VD, which includes replacing the coupler, because of the rough surface caused by the bad seal.

Does the seal turn on the coupler or just sit on the coupler? A reputable rebuild shop said the coupler can be repaired with a "Redi Sleeve or Speedi Sleeve"?

The output shaft spins within the seal. If the shaft is scored or pitted it will chew up the seal. The price seems high but it depends upon what needs replacing. If all bearings are replaced, new clutch packs, new oil pump, new control valve, etc then maybe it could go that high.

I would obtain another quote but VD's are ancient and a lot of shops don't want them.

 

[mickand]

My Velvet Drive transmission oil cooler failed and the unit filled with salt water. My issue soon after was a front oil seal failure (presumably corrosion tearing it apart). The rebuild was done by Transmission Marine in Fort Lauderdale (who can still get or have all necessary parts manufactured for them). They had to replace almost all internals at a cost of over $6k. I would recommend a rebuild now as any corrosion present may incur additional costs if left to rotate and wear parts or seals.

 

[Art]

Didn't have time to read all posts... maybe this was mentioned.

If I were you: I'd do what you did to clean it out as well as possible. Repair the seal and try using it. "Nothing ventured, Nothing gained". In this case; nothing ventured a possibly unneeded full-on rebuild expense gained! BTW - If the trany operates OK I'd again replace trany fluid after short period of time.

Cautionary note - So you don't misunderstand noise coming from your BW VD trany... and think its impending failure.

Borg Warner Velvet Drive trany can tend to make an unsettling "rattling" noise when in gear at too low rpm [like 500 to 600 rpm]. My port makes that rattle noise in reverse. Starboard does it a bit ness, not as loud. Soon as I raise rpm over 800 the noise disappears. Have read similar reports on BW VD's from other boaters.

I like to stay very entuned with my boat's engine and trany noises. Each time before leaving slip... after at least a relatively long stay [week or more]... I start engines from lower pilot station with wide opened salon floor hatches. Once warmed up, still remaining tied up, I run them individually through forward and reverse gears at low rpm [1,000 to 1,500]. Looking down into the engine compartment while standing at pilot station I spot check things with IR heat gun and powerful hand held spotlight. Our boat is a gasser... safety is as safety does!

 

[skipperguy]

Your ocean yachts trawler

I recently put my '79 Ocean trawler in the water after a long lay up (8 years) and discovered water in the port velvet drive. The water has probably been there for years.

I replaced the oil cooler, pumped out the tranny twice, replaced the ATF, and ran for 2-3 minutes. Though it shifted smoothly from forward to neutral to reverse, I discovered the rear seal had a slow leak.

We pulled the reduction gear and found a rusty aft bearing and the tailpiece had a slightly damaged race where the bearing rides.

We definitely need to replace the aft tailpiece and bearing, but I am a bit worried the bearing on the forward end of the tranny will be in the same condition - and who knows what else, we cannot see, has been damaged by rust.

I'm wondering if a rebuild transmission might be the best answer or maybe rebuilding my transmission.

Or should I just put it back together and see what I have. If it fails or makes a bunch of noise, I could replace it then.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

I may be a PO of your vessel. Had an OY 4+2 for 26 years and sold it in 2014. Name “Crew’s Inn”. Had two Perkins 6344T. Ran soooo well for sooo long. Maint was well done. Would love to hear back from you …. (Last location was providence RI)
skipperguy@aol. Guy sanderson

 

[skipperguy]

Your velvet drive

I may be a PO of your vessel. Had an OY 4+2 for 26 years and sold it in 2014. Name “Crew’s Inn”. Had two Perkins 6344T. Ran soooo well for sooo long. Maint was well done. Would love to hear back from you …. (Last vessel location was providence RI)
skipperguy@aol. Guy sanderson

Had both trannies rebuilt somewhere near Greenport NY. Good outfit.

 

[skipperguy]

Replaced both tranny oil coolers with custom and added bonding grounds at that time. Circa 1999

 

[PenBayCruiser]

I had a similar situation. Prop seemed stuck in the spring but didn't have time to investigate before launching. Ran the 2 hours to home port and the transmission was full of sea water. Ran a by pass hose around the oil cooler. Oil trickled out of the cooler, that answered that. The rear seal leaked as well. So, I replaced the cooler and also bought a new output hub, thinking the seal surface might be rusted. Drained the tranny and refilled. Ran a little bit then removed oil return line on cooler and let the tranny pump the oil/water out until the flow slowed. Shut it down refilled the tranny and repeated a couple more times to ensure the water was displaced. Rear seal still leaks a little, made a pan and cover to prevent making a mess from a couple of plastic totes. I have been two more seasons (about 150 hours of running) without any problems. Oh, the tranny is a Newage PRM Coventry 402D2. Hope this is helpful to you.

 

[SoWhat]

My Velvet Drive transmission oil cooler failed and the unit filled with salt water.... They had to replace almost all internals at a cost of over $6k.

A complete rebuild of a CR2 might reach that number if all gears are replaced such as the reduction gears, pinion gears, clutch drum, main shaft, etc. It would be highly unusual for for all these gears to fail. Velvet drives are over designed and overbuilt.

OP has a standard 72C. EBasicPower sells complete rebuilds for $2395 plus shipping. There is a refundable core charge of $600.

Seals and clutch pack replacement should run around $750. All new bearings might go up to $2000. Any estimate beyond that I would be calling Basic Power for a quote.

 

[PNM]

Rebuilding the VD reduction gear

We made a tough decision.

Were just rebuilding the reduction gear.

I talked to VD Support and they told me my version had metal plates. Also, I ran it three times - twice while purging the water/ATF mixture - and it shifted smooth and quiet.

Though the water would have circulated throughout the drive, the boat set for 8 years on the hard with the bow blocked up. Since the reduction gear bearings showed heavier rust and the bottom of the pinion gear showed only slight discolorization, I think the separated/concentrated water did not set on the bottom of the transmission parts during that 8 years.

I used a optical scope to look down the oil filler all the way to the sump. I did not find any rust on the sides of the housing or other parts that I could see. The ATF in the bottom was mostly clear and red with one small lump of emulsion.

All that said, we will add a temp sensor to both transmissions along with an audible alarm, in an attempt to avoid a more serious event, should it fail. We will also run it in gear multiple times at the dock before venturing out.

If all goes to heck, I can buy a good rebuilt 2.1:1 ratio for around $2K. And if it fails without major breakage, I can get it rebuilt.

Have a good day and thanks for all of your interest and wisdom.

 

[Datenight]

A local transmission shop is estimating $2,000-$2500 to rebuild my VD, which includes replacing the coupler, because of the rough surface caused by

PNM,

Is the local shop a marine business? I had the velvet drive rebuilt in the green boat. A local transmission shop was $700.00. The marine shops started at just under $1,500. I did remove and replace myself. Work was done in SE Connecticut. The shop is still in business.

Rob

 

[PNM]

to SkipperGuy

I bought my boat, "Caprice", from a tugboat captain in NY harbor in 2007. It was on the hard on the Hackensack River. He used it - along with many other civilian craft - on 9/11 to ferry survivors from Manhattan to a waterfront park on the NJ shore.

 

[ronobrien]

A local transmission shop is estimating $2,000-$2500 to rebuild my VD, which includes replacing the coupler, because of the rough surface caused by the bad seal.

Does the seal turn on the coupler or just sit on the coupler? A reputable rebuild shop said the coupler can be repaired with a "Redi Sleeve or Speedi Sleeve"?

I have used the Speedi Sleeve many times, they are easy and cheaper than a new coupling.

 

[PNM]

low oil pressure at idle on velvet drive transmission

I got the seal replaced and the reduction gear rebuilt after getting water in the velvet drive. I changed the ATF until the water was gone and the ATF was clear red.

I operated the transmission at idle for a few minutes monitoring the temp on the housing near the output from the oil pump to the cooler. I get 95 degrees max. Ambient is maybe 85-90 degrees.

I then operate a couple of minutes in forward, then reverse.

It shifts smooth and runs quiet.

But at idle, around 500 rpm, in gear, the oil pressure shows just above "0". If I add a couple of hundred rpms it goes up to 40-50#. Without being in gear, at 1500 rpms it shows over 200 #.

I have not tested the sender. I'm thinking it might be damaged by the water that was in the ATF.

I am using Dextron III.

Comments are appreciated.