Water Heater...?

[DBG8492]

Our new (to us) IG 44 has a water heater problem. During the survey, she was de-winterized, and I think that perhaps someone turned on the breaker before the pump filled her with water and may have burned something up. She's a beast - very large as boat water heaters go - but I can see no manufacturer's tag anywhere. It looks like it has a plastic cover on it, but I don't see a way to get the cover off without cutting it off or pulling the whole unit.

I'd like to replace the heating element/safety switch/thermostat - but on this unit, that appears to be one large part on the front perhaps - not sure - haven't dug into it yet because I don't want to screw it up and would like to try to find some manufacturer's info before I get started.

I took a pic - does anyone recognize it?

 

[tiltrider1]

I have never run into a water heater that didn’t use a standard heating element. Would be very surprised if you couldn’t easily follow the electrical wire right to it. A little poking around and I believe you will find your access.

 

[DBG8492]

Well - the wiring enters where that round cover is at the bottom.

I just didn't want to tear into that without knowing what I was doing.

But then again, one could always say that if I wasn't willing to take that risk, I shouldn't have bought an old boat...

 

[tiltrider1]

Water heater is already broke. Worst case scenario, it’s still broke.

 

[Comodave]

First absolutely make sure that the power is off before doing anything. Dumb thing to say but we all get in a hurry sometimes and forget the simple things. We had a boat about 12 boats ago that was making a sizzling sound when I first looked at it and it had been left alone for at least 6 months. It was the water heater element sizzling. I turned off the power immediately while first looking at the boat. The sizzling stopped and so I assumed that I would have to replace the element. However it was still working fine 8 years later when I sold that boat. Surprising.

I would take your phone and take photos of the back side and see if you can see any place the heating element might be. If there isn’t then you will have to go ahead and get the cover off the place the wires go in, even if you damage it it is already broken. Right now all you have is a big wter storage tank.

 

[DBG8492]

It's been a bit and I've been working on other things like re-routing the forward AC drain - huge pain in the ass - but I've finally gotten around to tackling this.

I took the cover off and now I'm even more confused. I've never seen anything like this.

From the way it's designed, I think the entire apparatus would unscrew from the tank, and you would have a heating element - one pole is where the red wire goes, and a thermostat where the black wire goes on one side and out the other before heading to the opposite pole of the element. The thermostat is clearly non-US as the measurements are only in *C.

I looked up the part number VK 4252 and it's this one: UK Spares | Your Spares Solution - Sunvic VK4252 7" Rod Thermostat 10-88C

So definitely European/non-US.

I have never seen anything like this, and I'm about 99% certain that the 1500W domestic element I bought won't work here.

Anyone?

I'm starting to think it's time to back up ten yards and punt.

 

[slowgoesit]

That is your thermostat. I suspect one of those wires is hot, and when the water in the heater is below the threshold set by the screw, it powers one of the other wires, which goes to the heating element. I don't think this is where your heating element is, otherwise, the thermostat would be switching on/off/on/off constantly. Try and get around back to the other side of the heater. Towards the bottom.
But, first, I'd turn the power on, and see which, if any of the wires in the pics are hot. If not, the water heater may not be the problem, you will need to look upstream (electrically) for another circuit breaker, switch, etc. If one of the wire IS hot, than I suspect TWO of the wires to be hot, since the water is cold, or at least ambient temp.
If that is the case, and two of the wires are hot as currently set, put a screw in the adjustment, and turn it all the way down, hopefully it will be below ambient temp, and the thermostat will turn off the hot to the 2nd wire.
If all this checks out, then you still need to find the heating element . . . .
Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out!

 

[DBG8492]

Trust me - I can see all around it - this is the only place where the element could be.

There's nothing else except the inlet at the bottom, the outlet at the top, and two ports where coolant from the port engine circulates. The 120V wiring goes into this spot behind the cover I removed to expose this.

I'm guessing this is the same heater that was on the boat when it left Taiwan, because why would anyone import one of these when there are plenty of on-the-shelf models in the US that would work? I can't imagine importing this one would have been cheaper than buying one here.

 

[Nick F]

If you read the writing on the thermostat it says Satchwell-Sunvic Ltd. Google shows that this company was in the UK and appears to not be in business now.

The flange appears to be hexagonal - maybe the whole assembly unscrews, although this may be difficult now due to its age.

 

[Bmarler]

I think it’s a combo thermostat and element. Punting seems like a good idea unless you can unscrew it and find a replacement.

 

[Phil Fill]

When owning an old boat you learn the buy similar to and modify. Replacing usually is cheaper and easier.
We usually do not turn on the water heater on a daily bases. Just for showers and twice a week dishes. Heater warms up in under an hour. It cost a lot to help water hot in a cold damp bilge.

 

[DBG8492]

I think I'm going back up ten yards and punt.

If so, I'm going to try something different and clear the area over the port prop shaft where this one is installed, because right now, getting to the port shaft in a stuffing box emergency would be almost impossible. It needs to be re-packed, and I've been dreading that because of the absolute lack of space to work.

I don't know - going to think about it.

 

[SteveK]

You obviously have a 240V hot water tank. A question did you find a 240 dual pole breaker on the electric panel?

 

[Phil Fill]

120 volt, one leg of 240 volt, is good enough for a small heater for a boat and cheaper electric bill. Also most docks do not provide 240 volt. I changed the Eagle to all 120. I can plug into 240 but only use one leg.

 

[luna]

If you are convinced that the water heater tank and engine coolant loop are still leak free and you have isolated the problem to the heating element/thermostat you should be able to get a replacement immersion heater element/thermostat fitting from the UK or New Zealand.

The heating element itself will likely be rated at 240 Volts at 50 Hz but you can use North American split phase 240 V at 60 Hz on the element with no problem.

You could also power the same 240 V, 3000 W element with just 120 V.
In that case the element will only consume 750 Watts, water heating will then take 4 times as long.

In your picture, I don't see a Green grounding conductor.
This Green wire commonly attaches to the base of the cover's mounting stud, which is missing in your picture.
Please ensure the green wire exists and is correctly connected.
It may save your life.

One other issue is I have no idea if the thread size and design on these things varies. You may need to converse with a willing and friendly UK supplier to sort the thread issue out.

If all else seems good I would drain the tank, disconnect all electrical power and remove the element and measure the threads to ensure whatever I bought in the UK will fit.

But before you tear into it, have a look for for a thermal cut out (a Klixon switch) that may be stopping everything from working.
If you find one, press the reset button. Does it work now?

Here is a troubleshooting video that may prove useful.

Good luck. Be safe!

 

[DBG8492]

Here's a pic that shows all the wires. It's not green/black/white, it's red, black, white. The white is connected to the body of the heater and the cap. The red is connected to one pole of the element and the black connects to one side of the thermostat, then exits the other side and connects to the other pole of the element.

I do have 240V inbound:

But it doesn't have a two-pole breaker - it's single pole - 15A:

There are no leaks. There were never any leaks. There is no safety swtich. The only things on it are what you can see in the original pics - cold inlet, hot outlet, the wiring box, and the input/output for the port engine coolant. The issue is that it doesn't heat water - that's it. I finally got around to pulling the cover today and after looking at it, I'm not even going to try to fix it.

There is no "drain" on it. The only feasible thing that even resembles a drain would be to disconnect the water inlet and try to feed the results into a bucket as it flows out - or just let it drain into the bilge which is probably what I will end up doing when I remove it.

If it's as old as the boat, then it's been there 41 years. It's done it's job and it needs to be retired.

 

[Bmarler]

Is there voltage at the element?,

 

[Bmarler]

If it’s fed 240 volts, be careful. I have seen 240 wired with a single pole breaker and the other leg unprotected. The result of that can give you 120 volts at the terminals even with the breaker off.

 

[SteveK]

Take a volt meter to those terminals to setermine if there is voltage with th 15A breaker off, Ground (white) to red and/or black

 

[Phil Fill]

BACK UP 15 PACES.

I think we are talk looking at Apple and orange here. In Europe it is common to have one wire with 240 volts vs US of 2 wires of 120 volts. The same basic standard electrical equation is volts x amps = watts/power. So the higher the volts the less amps required to equal the same watts/power. The less the amps the smaller the gauge wire is needed and the size of the fuse. 15 amps X 240 volts EU = 30 amps x 120 volts US.

Therefore if replacing US unit the EU wiring size maybe to small to carry the higher amps US which may cause the wire to over heat.

So back up evaluate if US standard or EU standard. It's sounds like you may have a mixture of both EU and US.

 

[DBG8492]

BACK UP 15 PACES.

I think we are talk looking at Apple and orange here. In Europe it is common to have one wire with 240 volts vs US of 2 wires of 120 volts. The same basic standard electrical equation is volts x amps = watts/power. So the higher the volts the less amps required to equal the same watts/power. The less the amps the smaller the gauge wire is needed and the size of the fuse. 15 amps X 240 volts EU = 30 amps x 120 volts US.

Therefore if replacing US unit the EU wiring size maybe to small to carry the higher amps US which may cause the wire to over heat.

So back up evaluate if US standard or EU standard. It's sounds like you may have a mixture of both EU and US.

Way ahead of you.

The breaker was off when I took the cover off - no chances - and I tested immediately. No voltage. However, once I saw that mess, I took several steps back and reconsidered everything - never switched on the breaker.

Instead, I posted here, worked on my solar plan, and did a few other small projects that needed to get done.

I will re-tackle the water heater either tomorrow or Tuesday and check the voltage with the breaker on.

This is just another 1980s trawler - Island Gypsy 44 built in either Hong Kong or China. AFAIK, it's been in the States since it was built and delivered. No idea why there would be a European hot water heater in it. Everything else is pretty much standard US stuff - fridge is a Whirlpool, electric cooktop is US, AC units are Dometic/Cruisair- no surprises. Just the weird as hell water heater.

 

[SteveK]

OK, your 15A breaker works in the EU at 240V. How did it work in the US. running on 120V, I suppose that is possible.
Since you do have 240V input from shore and just one 15A breaker then as suggested above, it may also go to the second leg directly.

 

[BruceK]

IGs like yours were built in China, not Taiwan, and finished in Hong Kong. Boats sold here used 240v, I had a 1981 IG36. Whether boats sold in countries using 120v were fitted with 120v I know not. Makes sense they would be but you are showing 240v coming in. Makes a difference when you select a new one. Maybe there`s a transformer for other stuff. You seem savvy, but if not an electrician, it might be time to engage one.

 

[CaptTom]

Interesting that the main breaker is a double. That implies US (two 120V legs) rather than EU/UK (one 240V leg). Yet the "Hot H2O" breaker is a single pole. So presumably 120V. You can of course buy 120V heating elements, or even power a 240 with only 120, although that will take a long time to heat up.

But in the end just measuring the voltage at the terminals on the water heater, with the breakers on, will give you your answer. And confirm whether the problem is with the thermostat/element or the power supply.

 

[DBG8492]

Interesting that the main breaker is a double. That implies US (two 120V legs) rather than EU/UK (one 240V leg). Yet the "Hot H2O" breaker is a single pole. So presumably 120V. You can of course buy 120V heating elements, or even power a 240 with only 120, although that will take a long time to heat up.

But in the end just measuring the voltage at the terminals on the water heater, with the breakers on, will give you your answer. And confirm whether the problem is with the thermostat/element or the power supply.

Yeah, I'm working right now and it's been busy for a Monday, so no time to get down there and do the deed - but I will try to get it done after work because the suspense is killing me.

I have an electrician friend who is also a boat guy, and he's also confused. I'd have him come over and help, but he's about a thousand miles away right now and dealing some mess of his own so I don't bother him too much.

There isn't a single piece of AC gear on this boat that runs at anything other than 120. The AC units, washer/dryer combo, fridge, stove...Inverter... So I was quite shocked to find that particular setup on the hot water heater.

But then again, it's an old boat. You can only learn what they teach you when THEY'RE ready.

 

[Phil Fill]

Going back and looking at the pictures, the wiring look to sized for standard 120 volts 30 amps and may be big enough to handle 240 volts 15 amps which basically 120 volts 30 amps. So it appears that 2 120 volts are combined to make 1 240 volts.

Let us know what you find.

 

[Nick F]

You seem to be getting a lot of advice on different aspects of your problem. If I may, I would like to suggest one single measurement which will tell you whether the element has burnt out.
If the element has indeed burnt out, then any fix will involve finding a new element.

1 Shut off the power.
2 Disconnect the wires connected to the 2 terminals with the rusty slot-head screws.
3 Use a multimeter set to measure resistance (ohms) to measure the resistance between the two terminals with the rusty slot-head screws. The multimeter probably has multiple options for the measurement range. I would suggest the 0-100 or 0-200 ohms range (not kilohms (kohms) or megaohms (Mohms)).
4 If you do not get any reading (that is, you get the same reading as when the multimeter leads are not connected) then the element is burnt out.

 

[CaptTom]

Yes, checking resistance is a good next step, but that doesn't always give you a good answer. Those elements don't always fail as a clean "open." Especially if there's water in the tank. Hence the recommendation to first confirm power to the terminals, which will also answer the 120/240 question.

Both questions need to be answered, regardless where you start.

 

[DBG8492]

Okay - the verdict is in.

Judge Multimeter rules that the water heater gets 120 volts on a single leg.

As for whether or not the element is a 120 or 240 volt - No way in hell I know how to figure that out, but at the Admiral's request, I will drain it and try to pull the assembly out and see what we can figure out.

 

[Bmarler]

Did you do the voltage check at the element terminals?