Waiting for Weather in Panama (Lots of Pictures)

[NoRain]

You have to ask yourself: when you're old and feeble and confined to a wheelchair with a colostomy bag tied to the armrest, do you want your last memory to be you saved a few hundred bucks by not being easy walking distance to Key West.

I gotta believe most folks on this list are going to die with money anyway. Coffins don't have pockets.

Easy for me to say. I'm crew.

Peter

…and hearses don’t have ski racks

 

[Wtrguy]

Peter,
Thank you for letting us tag along. Best cruise I've never been on! While I've spent 7 days without touching land before, never covered that kind of water while doing it. It is very clear that we have a lot to learn before attempting such a feat. Standing by for the next adventure...

Kevin

 

[BoondocksHawks]

Great thread; good discussion points - thank you for sharing your experience specific to this trip as well as in general. Cool pictures, too!

 

[SteveK]

Peter, Were you able to walk on terra fermi without falling down. Looking for the post story.

 

[twistedtree]

I'll take the bait on FLIR. It's very expensive, and fills a very small gap in coverage between radar, your eyes, and a low light night vision camera. I doubt I would get another one if I were doing it again.

Where I have found it the most useful is operating in ice. I have had conditions with growlers that are polished smooth and appear more like giant clear ice cubes vs giant snow balls. In certain light conditions, they are nearly invisible. But on the FLIR they light right up. And if operating at night with potential ice, it would be great.

As for spotting floats, logs, or the mythical container, good luck with that. Remember, it's highlighting temp differences between objects, and anything floating around for any length of time will be the same temp as the sea. Also, just as a camera, it's about like a 1990s phone camera - hardly worth taking pictures with it. Even the better models are only 640 x something resolution. I think a high resolution low light camera like a Sionix would be much better at spotting debris and other inanimate floating objects.

And I can confirm that the reliability sucks. I had a "low end" FLIR facing aft on my last boat and it bit the dust, outside of warranty of course. And my current fancy dancy pan & tilt & stabilized.... well it's the 4th one over 2-3 years. A friend has the same camera on his boat and I think is on his 3rd. Only a government contractor would build such a camera and charge so much for it. And only government agencies would accept it's poor quality and poor performance.

 

[slowgoesit]

Our brand new FLIR from RayMarine is two years old, and has never worked. Not once. It's still under warranty. I've removed it twice to "trouble shoot" stuff they wanted me to do . . . Removing it entails going up the mast, first removing the 48" Open Array radar, just so I can get to the attach bolts for the FLIR, then remove the FLIR . . .TWICE! I still think it is a bad cable, but they won't replace it under warranty . . . I've got another year of warranty, then, before the warranty expires, we're going to have a come to God moment . . . .
I cannot in good conscience recommend a FLIR, at least not THAT brand to anyone.

 

[long-cours.62]

"...). We do an engine room check every couple hours. Yesterday we changed one of the Racor fuel filters..."

You left the 8 April and need change Racor the 9 April ?
Already clogged ? Deficient filter ? Bacteria ? Dirty tank moved during one day ? Witch reason ? Thanks

Also one more question is she stabilised or not ?

 

[mvweebles]

You left the 8 April and need change Racor the 9 April ?
Already clogged ? Deficient filter ? Bacteria ? Dirty tank moved during one day ? Witch reason ? Thanks

Also one more question is she stabilised or not ?

The Racor had around 230 hours on it so had filtered around 1200g diesel. Although we didn't do the acetone test another post suggested, a friend at Northern Lights (who used to work for Deere Marine Propulsion) said the crud was asphaltines. He was not overly concerned about the service life of the filter. When we arrived in Key West we had over 130 additional hours on the new filter without any appreciable increase in vacuum.

The boat is stabilized with TRAC/ABT hydraulic stabilizers (the brand favored by PAE/Nordhavn) which worked flawlessly.

We catch a flight this afternoon back home to St Petersburg area after being gone a month.

Peter

 

[long-cours.62]

Thanks for your precision.
I was surprised by the problem with the filter because you wrote "The owner is incredibly knowledgeable and festidious about prep." ...And I thinking the filter was new at the start.
230 hours it is ne "normal" recommanded time to replace the filter.
When we bought our actual trawler the filter was ....burkkk and the tanks with bacteria ...it was a "nice" job to clean them ( luckily we have an "man hole" each 50 cm section).

Even with the stab it was unconfortable and not aesy to move on board; did you think it was due to a too low speed or and undersised stab ?
For example for our boat stab are "undersised" for 6 kts speed may be they will work well at 13 kts ...but never move at this speed because $$$$

 

[mvweebles]

Moving around was uncomfortable due to pitching of the vessel in head seas, not roll. The stabilizers eliminated any roll so that was a non issue.

The one thing I wish my Willard 36 had was waterline, at least enough to bridge standard 3-4 ft wind chop and reduce pitching. Of course she would not be a 36-foot boat but you get the idea.

BTW - a Nordhavn 76 "Take 5" just docked across the finger from us. Delivery crew at the helm. She's for sale for $3.3m USD. Listing shoes cruise speed of 8-kts which seems very low so likely a typo.

NORDHAVN 76'TAKE 5' - Nordhavn Yachts

Nordhavn 76 TAKE 5 was built to cruise the world in luxury, with safety and redundancy playing a key role.

nordhavn.com

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

Moving around was uncomfortable due to pitching of the vessel in head seas, not roll. The stabilizers eliminated any roll so that was a non issue.

The one thing I wish my Willard 36 had was waterline, at least enough to bridge standard 3-4 ft wind chop and reduce pitching. Of course she would not be a 36-foot boat but you get the idea.

I definitely know that feeling. A short waterline boat on a hull form that likes to pitch significantly and quickly in steep, short period head seas can make for a miserable ride upwind. Similarly, if I could change anything about the hull on my boat, it would be to reduce the rake of the stem to stretch the waterline a foot at the bow and to either extend the hull under the swim platform a bit, or add on a 3 - 4 foot cockpit for more hull length, easier dinghy access, and less trim issues with weight changes (fuel and water tanks are very far aft, so adding more hull aft of that would reduce the significant trim change due to tank levels).

 

[ksanders]

We went to the Dry Tortugas on a friend's boat out of Key West 6-years ago. I too fell in love with the place, though back then there was no comms at all - no VHF, no cell reception. I wonder if Starlink has changed the remote feeling of the place? But yes, it's high on our list for Weebles when she eventually gets here.

Thanks for the local knowledge on approaches to Key West. I think we're committed to crossing the stream conventionally - south of Marquesas Keys. I'm eager to see how the weather shakes-out. Chris Parker forecasts fairly lively winds (upper teens) against the Gulf Stream and advises a 90-degree crossing. NOAA/OPC shows a large-ish hi-pressure over the area and reduced winds. Our current thinking is to cross quickly to the north side of the Gulf Stream. If the winds are acceptable, ride the current towards KW. If winds are high, we'll dump out of the GS. Looks like it will be late tomorrow night when we at KW so will anchor nearby.


Shelter Bay Marina (Caribbean side of Panama Canal) is indeed a graveyard of cruising dreams. Many boats for sale.

I've been noodling over getting Weebles up the Caribbean for almost 2-years. To my thinking, a very challenging run on a boat not made for long runs. I think Dos Peces would be workable but would take a lot of planning (as does Weebles). For both boats, goal is to convert the long 1200nm passage into short hops of less than 500nms. My current thinking is to head east towards eastern Colombia, then squirt up to Jamaica (440 nms) and then around east end of Cuba through Bahamas. I think your Bayliner 4788 would be workable but would require the patience of Job.

View attachment 163964

Sorry, I just got back to this thread, we've been on the move!

I love that map!

Lots to think about the future!!!

 

[Maldwin]

Moving around was uncomfortable due to pitching of the vessel in head seas, not roll. The stabilizers eliminated any roll so that was a non issue.

The one thing I wish my Willard 36 had was waterline, at least enough to bridge standard 3-4 ft wind chop and reduce pitching. Of course she would not be a 36-foot boat but you get the idea.

BTW - a Nordhavn 76 "Take 5" just docked across the finger from us. Delivery crew at the helm. She's for sale for $3.3m USD. Listing shoes cruise speed of 8-kts which seems very low so likely a typo.

NORDHAVN 76'TAKE 5' - Nordhavn Yachts

Nordhavn 76 TAKE 5 was built to cruise the world in luxury, with safety and redundancy playing a key role.

nordhavn.com

Peter

I had a 43 ft Nordhavn which I loved except for the pitching motion, which was horrendous. I recently sea trialed a N55, and it wasn’t much better so I am under contract on a 62.

 

[mvweebles]

I had a 43 ft Nordhavn which I loved except for the pitching motion, which was horrendous. I recently sea trialed a N55, and it wasn’t much better so I am under contract on a 62.

Is there a reason you believe the N55/N43 are overly prone to pitching? And the N62 is not? Jeff Leishman designs have very full now sections and the earliest designs - N46/N62 - has a fairly raked bow. The result was a lot of reserve bouyancy, the tradeoff of nice forward accomodations. The earliest N46 also has fuel tanks located too far aft making it light on the bow. I've never run a N62 but I have to wonder if it shares the same design characteristics.

Grand Banks have plumb bow that is also relatively fine now that cleaves chop opposed to rising up over it. Tradeoff is a wet ride - pick your poison. My Willard is pretty well balanced - not too fine, not too full.

Ive gone from San Francisco to Florida, about 3500nm. About 700nm was into headseas. If I were going the other direction, likely around 700mm into head seas. I'm not crazy about the forward stateroom and head on any of the smaller Nordhavns (head forward) but there are not many alternatives so it will due I suppose.

Thoughts?

Peter

 

[Maldwin]

I think the aft pilothouse makes the 62 more comfortable in a head sea. An extra 35,000 lbs, and less mass aloft might make a difference. On sea trial in similar conditions, there was a great deal of difference.
BTW, I also had a Willard which had been designed to look like a West coast troller. A great sea boat for her size.

 

[rslifkin]

In general more length should improve comfort in head seas and reduce pitching. Sitting further aft and lower relative to the overall size of the boat will make things feel better as well. Weight distribution will also improve how easily the boat pitches as well as how much momentum the boat has in pitch once it gets moving.

An overly full bow (which my boat suffers from) will increase pitching as the boat wants to go over every wave instead of through them. However, it tends to help in following seas as the bow is less prone to digging into the back side of a wave.

Even if the N46 and N62 have similar shape I'd expect the N62 to ride better in a head sea due to the extra length. Lifting the bow 4 feet on a wave is a smaller change in deck angle on the longer boat even if the rest of the behavior is similar.

 

[long-cours.62]

Our former Long-cours 62 had an inconfortable roll ( until we had 'bilge keel" and mast)
but at contrario she was very confortable against pitch, really amaising.
Probabely due to :
low profile,
the first 2.5m of the hul empty
chain and windlass (500kg) at 2.7m from the bow and under the wl
and wl 18.25m.
I note all the point could be better on the LC62 ( here Evolutions (faites ou à faire si N°2) - Trawler long-cours ) but for the pitching she was perfect.

The top of superstructure of the N55 is around 5.64m for a wl of15.48 m, compared at our LC62 the top was at 3.18; for a wl 18.26m.

after it is a compromise of the bow "too much" flared could make some "vertical acceleration and it look like you ( in French sorry) plantez des pieux
and not enought it could like Dashew 64' on some videos who ( again in French) marsouine a lot

 

[Diep]

A big difference with the N62 is the bulbous bow which would also damp pitching motion.

 

[mvweebles]

A big difference with the N62 is the bulbous bow which would also damp pitching motion.

I don't know about that. What I do know is in a head sea, the bulbous bow makes a thunderous clap akin to a stevedore with a 9-lb hammer hitting the hill. I'm not a fan of bulbous bows. I wouldn't turn down a good boat that has one, but I'd sure prefer one that didn't.

Peter

 

[Diep]

Yes, a tradeoff to a bulb is the potential for pounding!

According to PAE, tank testing of the 62 hull resulted in 20% reduction in pitch amplitude and 18% reduction in pitch acceleration. They also say they don't fit bulbs to the smaller boats because of pounding. Looks like current models N76 and up offer bulbs.

Fundamentals - Nordhavn Yachts

Fundamentals Perspective on A True Passagemaker Full-Displacement By The Numbers Stability is Key Bulbous Bow Benefits Powerful Choices Construction Details Dry Exhaust Systems Noise Control Accommodations Tab Title Tab Title Perspective on A True Passagemaker Those who own a Nordhavn, or aspire...

nordhavn.com

(About halfway down)

 

[mvweebles]

Yes, a tradeoff to a bulb is the potential for pounding!

According to PAE, tank testing of the 62 hull resulted in 20% reduction in pitch amplitude and 18% reduction in pitch acceleration. They also say they don't fit bulbs to the smaller boats because of pounding. Looks like current models N76 and up offer bulbs.

Fundamentals - Nordhavn Yachts

Fundamentals Perspective on A True Passagemaker Full-Displacement By The Numbers Stability is Key Bulbous Bow Benefits Powerful Choices Construction Details Dry Exhaust Systems Noise Control Accommodations Tab Title Tab Title Perspective on A True Passagemaker Those who own a Nordhavn, or aspire...

nordhavn.com

(About halfway down)

All I can tell you is I probably have 5k miles to weather aboard bulb-bow boats. Bulbs were popular in the 1990s/2000s but have fallen out of favor probably because the tank testing doesn't match real life. The first time I head the head-sea-thunder-clap (N57 - a boat I otherwise love and would be my #1 choice for a full time cruising boat for a couple), I thought we'd hit something and started pulling up hatches to see if we were taking on water.

Recall, PAE also said the "maintenance strakes" improve efficiency (maintenance strakes are long bulges on either side of the keel that provided standup engine room access outboard of the engine). The Strakes are are stroke of genius but to suggest they improve fuel efficiency is a crock of BS (they likely have little effect).

I have a ton of respect and admiration for PAE and Nordhavn. Few people can explain more accurately than I can why they're a great boat and worth the money they cost. But sometimes PAEs marketing gets a bit over their skis.

Peter

 

[Diep]

Fair enough and agree to be skeptical about any sales pitch. I have always been dubious about the strakes and fuel economy, I just don't see a mechanism there.

In flat water the wave-making resistance should definitely be reduced with a bulb but in heavier seas this bulb is about to make some noise...

 

[man n black]

Peter thankyou for this thread and all the nuggets of information inside. I truly enjoyed reading and learning from it.

Ch

 

[Ertyqway]

Not to derail this excellent thread, but speaking of pounding and pitching in head seas, are there any recreational power boats which use axe bows to provide a more comfortable ride in rough water? I know they have become popular in commercial and miliary boat design for crew comfort in big waves (e.g. North Sea oil rig supply boats), and Damen has been making 35 meter yacht supply vessels in this style ("Sea Axe"), but I've never seen one in a smaller yacht. I think about this question every time I get stuck out in the Strait with 10-foot chop on top of a swell, and this discussion is reminding me of it.

 

[rgano]

We didn't have any issues in Panama City, felt totally safe wherever we went, but regarding Colon, we were told not to venture more than two blocks away from the bus station for our own safety. The bus driver from Shelter Bay reiterated this as well.
If you went to a particular store by Cab, the Cabby would beep their horn, and ask that you not leave the cab until the people at the store opened the door and gave you the all clear. Same goes for getting back in the cab. The store didn't unlock the door until the cab was there to pick you up, and beeped his horn.
I don't have any PROOF that it was unsafe, just relating what we told, and what we experienced in March of 2024. It may have changed in last 12 months though . . . YMMV

It's amazing to me that Colon has not changed in the forty years since I was there. We in the Navy always told our sailors not to go on liberty ashore anywhere in the world without a buddy. In Colon we were advised that groups of even ten could have trouble in the wrong part of that town.

 

[mvweebles]

Not to derail this excellent thread, but speaking of pounding and pitching in head seas, are there any recreational power boats which use axe bows to provide a more comfortable ride in rough water? I know they have become popular in commercial and miliary boat design for crew comfort in big waves (e.g. North Sea oil rig supply boats), and Damen has been making 35 meter yacht supply vessels in this style ("Sea Axe"), but I've never seen one in a smaller yacht. I think about this question every time I get stuck out in the Strait with 10-foot chop on top of a swell, and this discussion is reminding me of it.

I wasn't familiar with the term "Axe Bow" but a quick Google search solved the question.

Axe bow - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

"The axe bow is a wave-piercing type of a ship's bow, characterised by a vertical stem and a relatively long and narrow entry (front hull). The forefoot is deep and the freeboard relatively high, with little flare, so that the bow profile resembles an axe. The bow cuts through the water, and is less affected by passing through waves than a bow with more flare, making this bow type much less susceptible to pitching."

While I didn't use the "Axe" descriptor, I did describe the above quoted design attributes referenced to the Grand Banks. The classic West Coast salmon fleet of circa WW2 has similar designs. And of course the Dashew FPB (and similar) are also designed to cleave waves.

The tradeoffs are wet ride and the pinched bow reduces forward accomodations. You have to ask yourself how much cruising you'll do to weather and whether the tradeoff is worth it. @twistedtree , owner of a Nordhavn 68 (and, if memory serves) a N60 and a GB46 before), once eloquently described the tradeoffs he saw when considering a FPB (which he has spent considerable time aboard underway) vs a N68. For the standard cruiser, he made a strong case that the FPB was a bit special purpose.

Interesting side story. Bill Lee is a legendary West Coast yacht designer out of Santa Cruz, arguably the epicenter of California sailing. He designed a 52-foot sailboat "Merlin" that held the Trans-Pacific sail speed record for decades. Merlin was a slender boat with a very fine entry made to cleave waves and maintain momentum. It was a wet ride of course. I was aboard her at a boat show once - spartan interior isn't even close. She has a single Wilcox Crittenden Skipper Head in her center over the keel. Everything else was sails and pipe berths.

Bill Lee was known for the saying "Fast is Fun."

Peter

 

[guy with a boat]

Recall, PAE also said the "maintenance strakes" improve efficiency (maintenance strakes are long bulges on either side of the keel that provided standup engine room access outboard of the engine). The Strakes are are stroke of genius but to suggest they improve fuel efficiency is a crock of BS (they likely have little effect).

I think what they meant to say is that the strakes improve the efficiency of the guy working in the engine room because now there is room to stand up.

 

[mvweebles]

I think what they meant to say is that the strakes improve the efficiency of the guy working in the engine room because now there is room to stand up.

Was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure they said that in tank testing, the efficiency improved.

That said, it was a stroke of genius. The engine room of the N46 (original - tiny) vs the N40 (cavernous) was night and day. Was an incredible improvement. I really didn't like the N40 when it was introduced - heresy compared to the manly N46. But when I delivered an N40, I fell in love with the boat. Comparatively fast, comfortable, well thought out. Quite a departure from the original design of the N46. Very forward thinking.

I also have to give PAE props for generally being straight shooters. I read Jim Leishmans re-issued Voyaging Under Power while I was delivering an N46 to Seattle. He has a very candid discussion on some of the changes they'd make to the N46 design, some of which they did midway through the production run (reorient the fuel tanks to better balance weight). He also said that in hindsight, he'd extend the waterline 16" to make the bow less active which was spot-on while I bounced into headseas off the California Coast.

And the painstaking detail PAE went through preparing for their N40 Around The World gig was pretty amazing. Jim Leishman agonized over fuel capacity and made several runs up to Seattle and back to check consumption and ultimately designed in a finely calibrated day/burn tank. Top quality outfit that makes mistakes from time to time and seems to fix them.

Peter

 

[guy with a boat]

Agreed on all counts. I was kidding.

 

[Mac2]

Was a long time ago but I'm pretty sure they said that in tank testing, the efficiency improved.

Yes. I recall the same. I took “guy with a boat” comment as sarcasm.