Victron Victron where art though

[Hyperion]

Here is the puzzle. I am in the process of mapping out my Trawler’s electrical system so that I can best modify it using Victron components but don’t have a diagram yet so please excuse the textual explanation. I have combed the interwebs for an answer but still do not have a concrete solution. I have a 42’ trawler with a professionally installed electrical system that is very unusual. It is comprised of 50a Shore power, 2 Northern Lights diesel generators, feeding a 120v breaker panel via a 3 way distribution switch. It has a 12v system comprised of 4x12v starter batteries, one each for the two propulsion diesel engines and the two generators. There is a 120v marine charger that can charge the 12v batteries from the 120v pannel as well as each engine has an alternator. There is NO INVERTER! Therefore, I have to run one of the generators in order to power the 120v loads while underway or even worse, at anchor. This will not do, specially since I have the following 120v loads that must be on at all times:

Fridge, 24" Under Counter
Freezer, 24" Under Counter
Refrigerated Ice Maker
9’ Chest Fridge/Freezer on Fly bridge

Clearly I need to add an inverter charger as well as a LifePo4 house bank of batteries with enough storage to run those 4 systems as well as the other loads common to a boat at anchor. I will do the math asap but for now, I don’t even know what Victron to even think about.

Like I said, I have 50a shore power so as far as I understand that is 2x120v coming into the boat, through a breaker, through a galvanic isolator, and then to the three way distributor switch (two gensets) on to the breaker panel. I am not entirely sure how that is split but I’m guessing (novice) that each 120v goes to a separate bus on the panel. I guess this means that the gensets are also putting out 2x120v but I will confirm this soon.

Bottom line, I don’t know if I should get a Multiplus II 2x120, A Quatro II 2x120, or some other of the myriad of inverter chargers that Victron offers. I greatly appreciate any guidance on this matter as I’m a software engineer and not an electrical one.

Some notes:

1. I will add solar later but it is not mission critical for now
2. I will add dc to dc charging so I can charge the house bank later but not important yet
3. I am not looking for someone to design the entire system for me just some guidance on what inverter charger is the best fit.

 

[tiltrider1]

Like I said, I have 50a shore power so as far as I understand that is 2x120v coming into the boat, through a breaker, through a galvanic isolator, and then to the three way distributor switch (two gensets) on to the breaker panel. I am not entirely sure how that is split but I’m guessing (novice) that each 120v goes to a separate bus on the panel. I guess this means that the gensets are also putting out 2x120v but I will confirm this soon.

Bottom line, I don’t know if I should get a Multiplus II 2x120, A Quatro II 2x120, or some other of the myriad of inverter chargers that Victron offers. I greatly appreciate any guidance on this matter as I’m a software engineer and not an electrical one.

Some notes:

1. I will add solar later but it is not mission critical for now
2. I will add dc to dc charging so I can charge the house bank later but not important yet
3. I am not looking for someone to design the entire system for me just some guidance on what inverter charger is the best fit.

I have not studied Victron so I will leave the multipluss/quatro question for some one else.

Yes you have two 120v buses, your shore inlet 50a 125/250 which is two legs of 50a 125v. Your generator also puts out two legs of 125v. This allows you to have either 12v or 250v on your boat.

 

[l00smarble]

Need more info. Photos of your distribution panel may help tell the story. Do you ahve 240v loads? Some boats have 120v Bus A, 120v Bus B, and 240v Bus all in the same panel.

Need to get an idea of how your panel is set up and where the loads are that you want to power. For example if the loads you want to power are all 120v and all on Bus A then you maybe could use a single phase Multiplus or Quattro. If you need to energize both Bus A and Bus B to energize the loads you want you may need a "2x120". If you need to energize 240v loads with an inverter you may need two units configured to make 120/240 split phase (just like 50a shorepower.) or you can use a larger 230v inverter (programmed to be 240v/60hz) and an autotransformer.

Sometimes we separate off the loads we want to power by inverter on their own panel or section of the main distribution panel. Sometimes, especially with large Lithium banks, we put the inverter inline with the other sources to allow it to energize the entire panel and give the user the choice and responsibility to load manage what they want to use.

 

[ranger58sb]

It has a 12v system comprised of 4x12v starter batteries, one each for the two propulsion diesel engines and the two generators. There is a 120v marine charger that can charge the 12v batteries from the 120v pannel as well as each engine has an alternator. There is NO INVERTER! Therefore, I have to run one of the generators in order to power the 120v loads while underway or even worse, at anchor. This will not do, specially since I have the following 120v loads that must be on at all times:

Fridge, 24" Under Counter
Freezer, 24" Under Counter
Refrigerated Ice Maker
9’ Chest Fridge/Freezer on Fly bridge

No dedicated house bank already? No separate bank for thruster and/or windlass? Existing 12VDC house systems are serviced by engine batteries?

In a previous boat, I repurposed one engine-start bank to power an inverter. Added capacity to that bank. Installed a ProMariner inverter/charger on that bank. Connected the inverter to a few specific house loads on our panel. Voila.

In this boat, our two main engine banks service all the DC house and nav loads in the boat. We repurposed our existing thruster bank to power an inverter. Victron MultiPlus 24/3000/70 (maybe would have been 12/3000/120 for your system). Additional equipment: Digital Multi Control, and BMV-712 Smart Battery Monitor. Connected the inverter to a few specific house loads: undercounter fridge and freezer, icemaker, outlets, etc. (We had a local Victron distributor do the installation, too.) Voila.

Having to add a battery bank may actually slightly simplify your installation, and certainly the LFP option would look better to me.

I dunno about MultiPlus IIs or Quattros or etc. My guess would be that they just add additional capabilities to the extent your wallet can stand it... but the basic MultiPlus is likely to get the job done.

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

I dunno about MultiPlus IIs or Quattros or etc. My guess would be that they just add additional capabilities to the extent your wallet can stand it... but the basic MultiPlus is likely to get the job done.

The MPII / Quattro II is usually a bit cheaper than the original version. It doesn't do anything more, it's just an updated model of somewhat different design. Different case and different internals (lower idle draw in exchange for a bit less surge capacity).

If there are any 240V loads on board, the ideal system would be to use a 240V inverter/charger and draw 240V from the 50A shore feed and the generator. Add 2 auto-transformers to the system. One for a 30A shore inlet to step up to 240V, the other goes on the inverter output to make 120/240 split phase from the 240V inverter. If you only have 120V loads, then the 2x120 inverters will do the job just fine (they provide 2 legs of 120V in phase when inverting or connected to a single phase shore power feed, they only provide 120/240 split phase from a split phase input (like a typical 50A connection).

Functionally, the difference between a Multiplus and a Quattro is that the Quattro has 2 AC inlets and can internally handle shore / generator transfer. If you have multiple generators and would need a more complex source selection setup anyway, you could stick with a Multiplus and handle the transfer manually. Or use a Quattro with a switch just to select which generator it's connected to.

 

[ranger58sb]

Functionally, the difference between a Multiplus and a Quattro is that the Quattro has 2 AC inlets and can internally handle shore / generator transfer.

Our MultiPlus does automatic transfers.

-Chris

 

[rslifkin]

Our MultiPlus does automatic transfers.

-Chris

Anything in the Multi / Quattro family has a transfer switch for input power vs inverter power. But the Quattro has 2 AC inputs instead of 1. So the Multiplus can transfer between 1 AC input and inverting. The Quattro can transfer between 2 AC inputs and inverting, which means if you have a single shore power input and a single generator, no external transfer switches are needed at all, both shore and gen can feed right to the Quattro and it will automatically select between them (or switch to inverting when neither source is available).

 

[l00smarble]

Our MultiPlus does automatic transfers.

-Chris

Multiplus does transfer of AC input to AC output when AC source is present but it does not do two source transfer (typically shore and Genset.)

 

[ranger58sb]

Multiplus does transfer of AC input to AC output when AC source is present but it does not do two source transfer (typically shore and Genset.)

Ah. Got it.

In our installation, we have to transfer panel power from shorepower to genset (or vice versa) first, manually anyway, so hadn't realized there are other ways to do it...

-Chris

 

[SteveK]

Previous boats all had an inverter and house bank. But it was not until this boat that the load requirements exceed the inverter output. So you have to do a manual dance of what gets power.
Victron is no exception. 50A input from shore pass through yes, but on on inverter mode only 25A continuous output for loads to share on multiplus II 3000 for example. You have lost 25A available amps.
Working from a blank slate determine the continuous power requirements first, you may need 2, maybe 3 inverters for short term supply and the same large bank of batteries as you would install for one inverter.

As an example, our dinner prep needs 30A continuous here and to my surprise my Magna 2000 only outputs 15A, so I have two inverters wired to serve separate items used at the same time, like stove top and oven.

 

[l00smarble]

50A input from shore pass through yes, but on on inverter mode only 25A continuous output for loads to share on multiplus II 3000 for example. You have lost 25A available amps.

It is actually far worse. You are not comparing apples to apples. Watts allows proper comparison. "50a" shorepower input is actually 50a at 240v (split phase) which is 12,000 watts. A Multiplus 3000 is actually 3000VA but only 2,400 watts at a power factor of 0.8. So it won't do 25amps continuous if any of the loads are inductive.

2,400 watts is only 20% of what your 50a cord provides.

There are 5kva, 8kva, 10kva and even 15kva Victron inverter/chargers. All can be ganged in parallel so the only limitations are space and money. You can build a system to replace the 12,000 watt shorepower but your battery bank will have to be insanely large if you want to use such loads for any period of time.

 

[dutch-barge]

1) since you have a generator, get a quattro. ( so the shore and generator can be both attached and then when EITHER is on, the quattro will use it....)
2) a quattro is cheaper then 2 muliti's
3) Unfortunately, you are using a 12V system, so you will be limited to 5 KV for the quattro, unless you do two parallel, with a 24V system you can get a 15 KV inverter.
4) there are many layouts available on the victronenergy.com website

solar and wind priority

Solar & Wind Priority

www.victronenergy.com

auto start/stop generator

Automatic Generator start/stop

www.victronenergy.com

support. with resources ( more different layouts) and community knowledge base

Need support? - Victron Energy

Victron offers active support to distributors through training and materials. Contact a Victron Manager who will provide the necessary training.

www.victronenergy.com

victron gives a 5 year warranty and for 10 % of the purchase prices you can get 10 year warranty.

 

[dutch-barge]

xtend the standard 5-year warranty to 10 years for an additional 10% of the product's purchase price, according to multiple retailers. This applies to most Victron products with a 5-year warranty, excluding batteries and some smaller items. The extension must be purchased within the original warranty period, typically within four years of purchase or one year before the initial warranty expires.

 

[Diep]

Late to the party but you really need to be SURE about your current AC setup before you can make an intelligent choice. For example you have 50A service but have ASSUMED it is split phase. I don't know what year your boat is but there is a period where GB was putting in 50A 120v services.

Our boat is set up similar to yours except it only has 1 gen and 3 batteries. It has single phase 120v service with 50A receptacles and appropriately sized wiring.

Will be doing a similar improvement to yours soon and probably putting in a Quattro Multiplus II.

 

[l00smarble]

13 replies and OP MIA?

 

[MV Moira]

It is actually far worse. You are not comparing apples to apples. Watts allows proper comparison. "50a" shorepower input is actually 50a at 240v (split phase) which is 12,000 watts. A Multiplus 3000 is actually 3000VA but only 2,400 watts at a power factor of 0.8. So it won't do 25amps continuous if any of the loads are inductive.

2,400 watts is only 20% of what your 50a cord provides.

There are 5kva, 8kva, 10kva and even 15kva Victron inverter/chargers. All can be ganged in parallel so the only limitations are space and money. You can build a system to replace the 12,000 watt shorepower but your battery bank will have to be insanely large if you want to use such loads for any period of time.

OK, I just stumbled across Power Factor, and I think I sprained something.

We have AC sources (shore power, diesel generators) and DC sources (solar panels). We have AC loads (mostly inductive, motors, A/C, refrigerator, inductive stove) and DC loads (mostly resistive, lights, water heater, battery charger). I think I have read that inductive loads have lower power factors (about 0.8) than resistive loads (approaching 1.0).

I think I have read that, when feeding a load with a poor power factor, I need more Watts that I'd expect from the appliance nameplate that calls for so many Amps at so many Volts, by a multiplier which is the inverse of the load's power factor.

I'd appreciate being educated.

 

[WillieC2]

Think your head hurts now? Let's talk about how inductance, reactance, and resistance affect PF. Kirchoff and Thevenin had some ideas. Maybe a refresher on Peukert's Law. String theory for extra credit. (Anchors, anyone?)

 

[Jeff F]

Need more info. Photos of your distribution panel may help tell the story. Do you ahve 240v loads? Some boats have 120v Bus A, 120v Bus B, and 240v Bus all in the same panel.

I think that's key. It's not clear whether 240v is produced by the genset(s). If you don't have 240v loads a single standard inverter can power one of the 120v buses and support the loads mentioned For 240v two inverters are used.

 

[Iggy]

If it was me, with that boat. I would get a pro down to go over what should be done, Buy the equipment from him and do it myself. This job would be expensive enough, but I would want to know exactly how the system works! Most problems happen when cruising, so knowing the system is a must for me.