Victron Inverter/Charger install

[desperado 91]

New poster here. I need a little input. I have read the forum for some years. I have owned, operated, and worked on boats for several years. Average skills with 12V marine/RV electrical. Finally pulled the trigger on a recreational/cruising boat/trawler ('79 OA MK1). The boat comes with a new, uninstalled Victron Multiplus 3Kva Inverter/Charger and 2/0 battery cable. The PO planned to replace the existing Xantex Pro-Sine 3.0. Electrical specs: Shorepower: 1)30 A and 1) 50 A connections, 2 isolation transformers (Charles Ind 3.6 KVA & 12 KVA), 10KW genset, 1)Charger/Inverter, 3) chargers (thruster batts, genset batt), 6) 4D Lifeline house batts, 2) Grp 31 Start batt. GFIC Duplex outlets. The PO had an installer quote them ( me as well) 40 hours labor with 8-12 hrs additional time for the Cerbo display (running wiring and programming). The installer wants to use a Bluetooth dongle and an AC current transducer. I haven't had an opportunity to familiarize myself with the project in detail but the unit is going to be installed in the same location as the old one. I realize more details are always needed, but isn't this a possible DIY project? It seems like a lot of install time. Are there specific issues to be concerned about? Thanks in advance for any assistance

 

[tiltrider1]

Sounds like a complicated set up requiring a simple inverter swap but is it? Could be as simple as disconnecting 12 wires and reconnecting them or there could be a lot of additional safety requirements required. I do not have enough information to know if your system meets current ABYC standards or what this change will require to meet the standard.

Are you familiar with current safety standards?

 

[SteveK]

So 48-52 hours of labor & no cost on cerbo. It does seem too many hours and may explain why it is not already done. PO has 2/0 cable begs a question, why? What is the current cable size to battery?
You have a 3000 Xantrex now and the multiplex is 3000. No battery change mentioned.
I have to ask, why make the change, what improves?

 

[desperado 91]

Sounds like a complicated set up requiring a simple inverter swap but is it? Could be as simple as disconnecting 12 wires and reconnecting them or there could be a lot of additional safety requirements required. I do not have enough information to know if your system meets current ABYC standards or what this change will require to meet the standard.

Are you familiar with current safety standards?

PO said the electrical system was totally updated as of 2012. New breaker panel ( 12V/120V ) No I am not up to date on current electrical

 

[desperado 91]

So 48-52 hours of labor & no cost on cerbo. It does seem too many hours and may explain why it is not already done. PO has 2/0 cable begs a question, why? What is the current cable size to battery?
You have a 3000 Xantrex now and the multiplex is 3000. No battery change mentioned.I have to ask, why make the change, what improves?

PO decided to sell before the install which was to be done this May. Recieved an install credit for about theX same as estimated hrs. The PO said they just wanted current charging technology and remote monitoring, I don't think the Xantrex puts out 3000. I think they weren't putting enough loads on the genset

 

[desperado 91]

The cable was prepurchased with the new Victron inverter

 

[tiltrider1]

So 48-52 hours of labor & no cost on cerbo. It does seem too many hours and may explain why it is not already done. PO has 2/0 cable begs a question, why? What is the current cable size to battery?
You have a 3000 Xantrex now and the multiplex is 3000. No battery change mentioned.
I have to ask, why make the change, what improves?

Depends on the length of the run. One place you really don’t want voltage drop is in your DC charging run.

 

[Barking Sands]

It can be a DIY project if you immerse yourself into the forums, ABYC (go ahead and join for a year), get intimate with your boat, take your time, buy lots of tools. You can also consult with various people who will design a system and provide a diagram to build to, which is super helpful (let me know if you need someone to consult with)

The 40 hours IMO seems a tad high, but I dont know the details of your boat and what will need to be completely replaced and how much existing things will be used. If it was a near direct swap using 95% of existing wiring then 40 would be way too much. But if some woodworking needs to be done, long runs of wire need to be changed that run through hard to get spaces, etc then 40 might be ok.

The list of installed items is not very long and only include the Multiplus, dongle and AC current transducer. The last two items I am not sure you even really need. The added 8 plus hours for the Cerbo/touch 50 and programming? There is not a ton of "programming" in the cerbo thats difficult. The Programming that counts is done in the Multuplus via the MK3 in the charger, inverter and other tabs. Thats not mentioned. You can also program the MP via VRM downloading and changing and reuploading the file. But youll need Cerbo for that. You can definitely do the Cerbo/touch 50 yourself by watching youtubes.

The 2/0 cable may be meant for double 2/0 cable to MP since there is typically 2 lugs for each
+/- and I think the manual actually lists double 2/0 or single 4/0.

But without more details I might look for another estimate...and be sure they are Victron EXPERTS. It matters because you can waste a tremendous amount of time trying to figure out Victron configuration after the install. I have seen many many consumers sent out into the wild with Victron systems barely working or in some cases not working at all.

Where are you?

 

[slowgoesit]

First off, I believe you mean Xantrex, not Xantex.
One advantage of the Victron Multiplus is it has a LiFePO4 charging profile, in case you ever decide to upgrade to LiFePO4. Not sure about the Xantrex. All I know about Xantrex, is that our current boat came with two Xantrex chargers, one 12v for house bank, and one 24v for engine start battery. The 12v died about a month after we moved on board, and I seldom use the 24v Xantrex. Our boat didn't have an inverter when we purchased her.
I got rid of our Xantrex 12v charger, and replaced it with a Victron Quattro 12/5000 Inverter Charger and never looked back.
Unlike the Victron Quattro, I don't believe the Multiplus offers passthrough power, so the wiring should be pretty much the same as you Xantrex . . .
Even making up total new battery wires, I think 40 hours to wire is WAY high for a professional. I would think you should be able to replace it in less than 20. I know that I, having already done it, could probably do it in less than that unless the entire mounting backboard needed to be replaced. Then there would be time needed for cutting, painting/installing a new hard back.
Please understand that I also set up the entire inverter portion, which, with the Quattro also includes passthrough feature, and I don't think I took as long, even for all that, and installing (+) and (-) busses as well as all new 4/0 cabling, and I spent less time than he is quoting you for a much simpler install . . .
A professional should be able to beat my time. Perhaps he's figuring in a lot of drive time, and time spent at the shop and/or supply stores getting equipment?!?
Running the wiring and setting up and programming the Cerbo GX, as well as the BMS712 for me took a total of maybe 5 hours . . . . 10 to 14 hours, IMHO for just that is way out of line.

Just for kicks, where are you located?

 

[Barking Sands]

I know the Multiplus2 has pass through and assist

 

[slowgoesit]

I know the Multiplus2 has pass through and assist

Thanks for that Allen, I couldn't find it any of the literature on the Multiplus, so I was assuming it didn't. The Quattro clearly states it has pass through and assist. Doing some more research, both the Multiplus and the Multiplus II apparently have pass through and assist. That's a freakin' AWESOME feature. Our boat can be very power hungry, and it was originally built for 30 amp shore power. We were considering upgrading to 50 amp service, but were unable to source a 50 amp isolation transformer. Charles stopped making them about 8 or 10 years go.
BUT: After installing the Victron Quattro 12/5000 with pass though, and the LiFePO4 house battery bank, we no longer had to do the "Power Dance", You know, "Hon, I'm using the Microwave, please turn off the water heater, okay"
Most of you with older boats have been there, and done that, I'm sure!
Anyway, after installing the Quattro, and the LiFePO4, all those issues went away!
No need for 50 amp service any longer, as the battery, through the inverter handles all the surge power issues just fine, and without missing a beat! Then when the demand drops back down, the batteries are replenished with either Solar, Shore Power, Engine alternator, etc. . . . Life is Good!

 

[CaptTom]

I recently swapped out my Xantrex for a Victron inverter/charger, both 2000W. It was a pretty easy job, and I was able to use all the existing wiring. The hardest part was probably removing the bolts the old one hung on, and installing the plate the new one hung from. At face value, your estimate for hours seems off by an order of magnitude. Even installing and configuring the new display unit shouldn't take 8-12 hours.

That said, it's possible there's a lot more to this than we know. The fact that the OP already bought new cable is a red flag here. Wouldn't the old cable be fine, if the new inverter is the same capacity? What did they know that we don't know?

Anyway, a simple question to the installer should clear it up: What's gonna take so long?

 

[CharlieJ]

I have installed literally dozens of the MP 3kW over the last 20 years so I truly speak from experience.

First of all, understand that, on a boat, nothing is too hard for the guy that is not doing it.

BarkingSands gave the most accurate answer but even he was a little judgmental (sorry Allen) having never been on your boat. Mounting the Multi and programming it is the least labor intensive part of the job. Running the B+, B-, case ground, installing the switches and fuses and running the RJ45 is where the labor comes in.

That said, none of the commenters have done a shipcheck so their evaluation of the pro’s estimate is not worth very much. Because of all of this, in 21 years as a pro every project that my company does is on a T&M basis.

The PO had an installer quote them ( me as well) 40 hours labor with 8-12 hrs additional time for the Cerbo display (running wiring and programming). The installer wants to use a Bluetooth dongle and an AC current transducer.

This statement is confusing. His use of the BT dongle to communicate with the Cerbo certainly implies that running the RJ45 from the I/C to the Cerbo is difficult and he is going to go wireless. But he is including time to run the RJ45. Conflicting. I can’t fathom why he is specifying an AC current xdcr in this setup. BTW, on many projects it has taken all day to run the somewhat delicate RJ45 from the I/C in the engineroom to the Cerbo at the helm. To help reduce the billable hours, this is a task that I will willingly give to the boat owner. Most of them will get it done and done correctly, but I have to dress up the cable run on almost every one of these owner installed runs. BTW, I have had many start stringing the cable and then bailing and meeting me the next morning with a sheepish grin! If you are willing to string cable correctly and under the pro’s guidance, you can save a lot of billable time.

BTW, the BT signal on a lot of boats that I have worked on will not make it out of the engineroom. So depending on how the installer intends on using the BT dongle, the capability of the signal getting out of the engineroom and where it needs to go is important.

Finally, I do not consider this a DIY installation unless you are willing to put in the time understanding the Victron eco-system.

 

[Barking Sands]

BarkingSands gave the most accurate answer but even he was a little judgmental (sorry Allen)

no problem Charlie. I would defer to your experience on this matter completely. And as you say..the details of the boat and customers needs matter a tremendous amount. Customer says "I want my touch 50 screen right here!" That could be hours and hours of work all by itself.

 

[DDW]

I've installed a few inverters and I'd say there isn't nearly enough known to guess. Could take 80 hours. Could take 5. Depends on what is there, and what needs to be done. Sight unseen, 40 hours is probably a cover-your-*ss guess. Probably going to make good money, but may get bit.

At least, get another quote. If two independents say 40 hours, then maybe there is more work there than you imagine.

I disagree that professionals will necessarily do a better job than an owner. I've seen too many professional jobs that should be condemned, if not outright for safety then for aesthetics or serviceability.

 

[SteveK]

That said, none of the commenters have done a ship check so their evaluation of the pro’s estimate is not worth very much

@CharlieJ neither did you BTW. just saying. Your input is always welcome.
But you also have made some assumptions.

 

[slowgoesit]

I disagree that professionals will necessarily do a better job than an owner. I've seen too many professional jobs that should be condemned, if not outright for safety then for aesthetics or serviceability.

A truer statement has never been made!!!! Not casting stones on a specific "professional", but I can't begin to count the times I've had to un . . . . ummmm, I mean CORRECT professional installs!

 

[DDW]

There certainly are very competent professionals what will do a great job. When you find one you use them again. But picking one at random from the phone book or a Google seach, or even on other's recommendations, no matter the number of letters they put after their name, has been worse than a crap shoot for me. The only thing certain is that it will cost a lot. My satisfaction on the quality of the job done has been about 20%. So I do these things myself. At least I know who to blame at the end.

 

[desperado 91]

Thanks to all for the great input. Admittedly, I have not yet had a chance to investigate the existing Xantrex installation and the potential unknown obstacles. The installer could very well be just covering the worst-case scenario. At least I now have more specific questions to be answered once I take delivery and get more familiar with the boat. I'll post when I have more and better information. This is a great resource. Again thanks guys

 

[CharlieJ]

But you also have made some assumptions.

I am sorry, where did i make an assumption?

 

[SteveK]

I am sorry, where did i make an assumption?

guess you did not get my point, so here is one

This statement is confusing. His use of the BT dongle to communicate with the Cerbo certainly implies that running the RJ45 from the I/C to the Cerbo is difficult and he is going to go wireless. But he is including time to run the RJ45.

I bet you have not been on board this boat so that might be an assumption. You. like the rest of us literally go by what the OP says.
I accept you as a pro, don't dismiss the rest of us out of hand with a comment that our opinions are no good since we have not been on board.

 

[twistedtree]

guess you did not get my point, so here is one

I bet you have not been on board this boat so that might be an assumption. You. like the rest of us literally go by what the OP says.
I accept you as a pro, don't dismiss the rest of us out of hand with a comment that our opinions are no good since we have not been on board.

Both in that statement and elsewhere I think Charlie pointed out the kinds of things that can make the difference between and easy install and one that can take a very long time. It's all good advice, I think. Just last month I spend 3 hrs fishing a wire a distance of 3 feet. The rest of the job took no more than an hour.

 

[ranger58sb]

The PO had an installer quote them ( me as well) 40 hours labor with 8-12 hrs additional time for the Cerbo display (running wiring and programming).

Didn't read the whole thread, but if it helps to know...

We had an earlier charger replaced with a Victron MultiPlus, with a MultiControl GX and a BMV712. The wiring runs from MultiPlus to battery bank was minimal, as was the run to the panel. Labor estimate was for 12-18 hours. Actual was 24 hours. (The extra hours didn't seem excessive to me.)

-Chris

 

[DON]

Didn't read the whole thread, but if it helps to know...

We had an earlier charger replaced with a Victron MultiPlus, with a MultiControl GX and a BMV712. The wiring runs from MultiPlus to battery bank was minimal, as was the run to the panel. Labor estimate was for 12-18 hours. Actual was 24 hours. (The extra hours didn't seem excessive to me.)

-Chris

 

[DON]

I just finished an extensive victron smartbsttery install. we had a professional wiring drawing done which we followed to do our install. we bought the equipment from an authorized victron rep who supported us during the install and helped in the setup and programming. the setup was complicated and he answered our numerous questions.
since you have the equipment, pay the victron rep for support