Used boat pricing question (total newbie...)

[VectorVictor]

First post! My wife and I were in a sailing club here in Seattle for a couple of years and while we enjoyed it, we really want to be able to get to locations around the Puget sound without taking all day. So were looking at a used Ranger Tug 25 as a good "starter" boat. We really need to get some experience under our belt, make sure the boating lifestyle will stick for a long time, and then maybe we go for something larger (especially after I retire). Onto my question:

If I see 10 boats for sale around 95-115k, what do you think the actual sale price might typically be? (assuming the survey isn't coming back poorly). Some of these boats have been sitting on the market for months with little to no price change. I feel like this winter would be a good time to finally buy after looking for 3 years.

Thanks everyone!

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. Hard to say what price they will sell for. It depends on the sellers personal situation. Probably 10 to 15% less than asking.

 

[VectorVictor]

That's about what I was guessing, thanks!

 

[Nordlund Xpress]

Very hard to say - the 10-15% range given is a fair answer. We have bought 2 new boats, one 15% off asking and one 31% (hull number 1). We have bought 3 previously owned boats, one 13% less, one 20% less and one 54% less (original asking price was a bit aspirational). I'd want to know owners motivation, time on market, and the number of the same or very similar models sold over the past 12-24 months, and take in general market conditions. Any broker can look up the sold price on the broker version of Yachtworld for you.

 

[Bacchus]

I think boats are somewhat comparable to real estate in this regard so I'll pose acquisition in response...

What do you think the "normal" discount or premium is for real estate sale $ vs ask $?

I believe the only accurate answer is... it depends

Local environment & practices
Time on market
Comparison w " Comps"
W/ RE it's, location, location, location w/ boats its condition,... condition
Seller situation & motivations
Time on market & price history
Are complete naint history available and in comp,iancevw mfg. recommendations / best practices

In some locales home ask $ is only a start and premium offer$ are the norm. In other licales not so much.

I place a premium on fresh water operation, one long term owner, mfg/ models recognized & in demand but does it fit my must / want / don't want lists as a priority. Others here may feel very different...

Do your homework and investigations to gather as much info as you can and only you can decide on offer & max buyer price you are comfortable with.

 

[Fleming]

The reality is that most boat buyers, and especially 'green' boat buyers, don't have the knowledge to accurately assess the value of a boat and make a proper offer. Surveyors and brokers are the only ones who have the paid services to accurately reflect true selling prices and the experience to accurately judge condition, maintenance history, equipment levels, etc. and properly value a boat.

Using thumb-rules like 'offer 10% less' or 'offer 15% less than asking' is what you do when you don't actually know the value of the boat. Some boats have too high of an asking price, some boats are fairly priced, and sometimes owners are highly motivated and are selling low because they know it's a dropping market and they want the boat gone.

Find a broker or a surveyor that you trust to help you make an informed offer. Then after the survey you will have a valuation done by the surveyor as well as a condition statement and adjust the price you pay down as necessary from there. Condition makes all the difference, it's not like a car where you can say it's a 2018 Toyota Corolla with 100,000 miles so it's worth $xxxxx. That same Ranger Tug with the same hours can vary 20-30% depending on the maintenance it's had and the condition it's in.

 

[VectorVictor]

Thanks for the help everyone. I will using a surveyor for sure. Another question: How often do people use brokers to help them purchase a boat? Are most boats sold on Yachtworld? (seems like its by far the largest site).

 

[tiltrider1]

Most people don’t use a buyers broker. They see a boat and fall in love and make in offer. The selling broker is all so helpful and everything goes smoothly. However, there was never anyone there to represent the buyer. Should things go sideways the buyer is left with no representation.

I recommend you find a broker first. Then look for a boat. This forum is full of people who paid to have a boat surveyed only to find things that a buyer’s broker would have told thEM before they spent the money on a survey.

 

[mvweebles]

My guess is the less expensive the boat, the more likely the sale will be private - no broker. A lot depends on your price point. Understand that commissions are split between buyers broker and sellers broker, with the individual agent getting half of the half. On a $200k boat, that means $5k to an agent so they need to be fairly transactional.

You'll get a lot of folks on TF who are strong advocates of private sales. I personally like brokers but you have to respect their time and know how to use them. They can be very good advocates, but not always.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

I have found the selling price to be somewhere between what the buyer wants to pay and the seller is wanting to get. I am sure some boats are for sale that are worth the asking price.

 

[Nordlund Xpress]

Yachtworld is predominantly used in the same way Zillow or Realtor are used for homes - for shopping but not to handle the transaction. It supports brokers and has become the dominant advertising venue, but most boats over 30' are sold with brokers involved. Since you are new, do you homework and find a experienced broker with a reputation for being a straight shooter - a good one will keep you out of trouble and save you money in the negotiation.

 

[O C Diver]

One of the advantages of engaging a buyer's broker (paid by the commission of the seller) is their ability to access "sold boats" to find what other boat of your make and model have sold for.

Ted

 

[KnotYet]

Thanks for the help everyone. I will using a surveyor for sure. Another question: How often do people use brokers to help them purchase a boat? Are most boats sold on Yachtworld? (seems like its by far the largest site).

Other easy to use sites are boat.com, boats.com and boattrader.com and many more.
You may find that most of these sites as well as yachtworld list many of the same boats.
There are a few brokerages that don't put their listings on yachtworld such as Curtisstokes.net.
The Seattle area has a large number of boats for sale, so 'happy hunting'!

 

[Fleming]

Other easy to use sites are boat.com, boats.com and boattrader.com and many more.
You may find that most of these sites as well as yachtworld list many of the same boats.

Yea, boats.com, boattrader.com, and yachtworld.com are all owned by the same company which is why you see a lot of the same boats. Many brokers are starting to move away from yachtworld because of the high fees they charge, so it's really becoming a place for high-end boats listed by high-end focused yacht brokers. Boattrader is becoming more the middle of the road type place.

The PO mentioned Ranger Tug, and they are a good example of how some boats stay in their own dealer network (Pocket Yachts for Fluid Motion built boats like the RT) and you (often) won't find Pocket Yacht listings anywhere except on the Pocket Yachts website.

I think Buyers broker can be a huge advantage, but they're going to be picky about the customer they take on. Commissions are coming down because of all the related lawsuits, and the old 10% standard commission is going away to something lower, often 7% or so on more expensive boats. So for a Buyer's broker to take you on as a customer they have to know you're going to spend $400,000 or more. Yes, their commission on a $200,000 boat could be ok if you actually buy using them and don't run them all over the country looking at boats, but many of their customers will change their mind and not buy a boat at all after spending 50 hours of the brokers time or maybe buy one through a private sale, so the broker can't be putting a hundred hours of unpaid labor into chasing a deal that will only net them a few thousand dollars at best. It can be a tough way to make a living even though you are messing around with boats, which is why most of the people that give brokers a hard time are also people who have never worked 100% on commission.
If you are shopping in the $400K and up class, you absolutely benefit by using a Buyer's broker in particular because they can use a proper valuation to 'justify' your offer and give it more weight when presented to the Seller.

 

[Bacchus]

IMO trying to get a buyers broker to find you a boat is a losing proposition unless you are in $half mil range +/-.
Finding a candidate you are seriously interested in and engaging a broker to make the initial inquiry is a very different case. It's one thing to outline your desired boat and budget and ask if they become aware of one to let you know. I would not count on them to find your $200k boat for you. Their initial contact will include their ability to strike a cobroke deal or not and may provide seller insights that would not be shared with a buyer inquiry.

 

[SteveK]

@Bacchus I was biting my tongue wanting to say the same.

 

[long-cours.62]

Some time between two near sister ship you don't even understand the difference in their asking price example
a model named Survey by naval architect Vripack
one built in Holland in 1998 priced 198000€ ( stabilised with Naiad )
Vripack Survey 1500 – SOLD – Skippern Yachts ok the decoration is not "classic"
one ( few in reality on the market) built in Romania 2003 429000€, 2004 495000€, ( no stabilised)
Stentor 50 OC - Elburg Yachting
STENTOR SURVEY 15 OC motor yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht Brokers
Clearly you will have more possibility of reduction on the two second one ...
Note we tried to buy the first one even put one option on her before be able to move to see her... but was sold in less than one month . :-(

 

[Portage_Bay]

VectorVictor, in your original post you mention a Ranger 25. If you are seriously considering a Ranger Tug have a look at and consider joining Tugnuts I have a buddy with a Ranger, he finds tugnuts to be a valuable resource.

 

[VectorVictor]

VectorVictor, in your original post you mention a Ranger 25. If you are seriously considering a Ranger Tug have a look at and consider joining Tugnuts I have a buddy with a Ranger, he finds tugnuts to be a valuable resource.

I have been on there many times and joined a couple of months ago!

 

[VectorVictor]

IMO trying to get a buyers broker to find you a boat is a losing proposition unless you are in $half mil range +/-.
Finding a candidate you are seriously interested in and engaging a broker to make the initial inquiry is a very different case. It's one thing to outline your desired boat and budget and ask if they become aware of one to let you know. I would not count on them to find your $200k boat for you. Their initial contact will include their ability to strike a cobroke deal or not and may provide seller insights that would not be shared with a buyer inquiry.

I don't plan on getting a broker after reading several threads on here. A 100k boat is probably too cheap for a broker to care much about. Plus my experience so far with them has been terrible. There seems to be plenty of R25s for sale around Seattle, its not a rare boat. I think i have enough general mechanical experience to judge whether a boat is good enough to pay for a surveyor when I am ready.

 

[Jeff F]

I don't plan on getting a broker after reading several threads on here. A 100k boat is probably too cheap for a broker to care much about. Plus my experience so far with them has been terrible. There seems to be plenty of R25s for sale around Seattle, its not a rare boat. I think i have enough general mechanical experience to judge whether a boat is good enough to pay for a surveyor when I am ready.

Sensible.

I think the market price should be pretty apparent if you watch the market and see a few boats, if you're focused on a specific common boat like the RT25. As mentioned above, there are a couple of sites where buyers and sellers are pretty plugged in to the local market.

Good Luck!

 

[Jeff F]

I should add my opinion, which is that in an active market when you see the boat you want at a fair asking price you may pay close to that price. Options and equipment may vary between boats - maybe that matters. Educate yourself, and be ready to act fast when the right boat appears. If it's overpriced show your research in support of a lower offer.

 

[chrisa006]

On the Chesapeake Bay our broker for a sale and purchase said 10% seems to be the norm. Unless there are other issues. It was accurate on both transactions.

 

[deputybubba]

Can I ask for clarification on who pays the brokers commissions ?
I understood that if you just walked into a YachtWorld office and started looking at boats, that salesperson ( broker ) would get the entire commission.
I am still learning a ton about this process, so any info would be appreciated.
Thanks

 

[O C Diver]

Can I ask for clarification on who pays the brokers commissions ?
I understood that if you just walked into a YachtWorld office and started looking at boats, that salesperson ( broker ) would get the entire commission.
I am still learning a ton about this process, so any info would be appreciated.
Thanks

It's pretty much like a house. If the listing agent sells you the boat they get the commission less the brokers portion. If an agent from another brokerage is your representative, the commission is split between the agents less what each brokerage takes. There are also exclusive listings where the boats are exclusively sold by the brokerage and only their agent gets a commission.

Ted

 

[deputybubba]

Thanks Ted, and who pays the commissions ? seller or buyer or both ?
Thanks again

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks Ted, and who pays the commissions ? seller or buyer or both ?
Thanks again

It's paid out of the proceeds of the sale, typically 10% is contractually set aside. The split between buyer's representative and seller's broker (and their respective agencies) is also agreed contractually, though from time to time, a seller's broker may stipulate they will not entertain a split (co-broker arrangement) thinking he/she will sell it direct and keep the entire commission.

Peter

 

[Delta Riverat]

There seems to be plenty of R25s for sale around Seattle, its not a rare boat. I think i have enough general mechanical experience to judge whether a boat is good enough to pay for a surveyor when I am ready.

Sounds good, make some appointments and go look at some boats.

Happy hunting -

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks Ted, and who pays the commissions ? seller or buyer or both ?

That's another of those "it depends" (on how you look at it) questions.

As Peter says, the pay-out usually comes from proceeds of the sale. So the seller pays. Except the buyer is actually the one who supplies the proceeds of the sale.

And... the seller may have raised the asking price of the boat, to try to cover brokerage costs.

My experience with brokered sales and buyer's broker purchases have been good, so I'm not criticizing... just adding a bit of perspective.

-Chris

 

[Cartouche]

First post! My wife and I were in a sailing club here in Seattle for a couple of years and while we enjoyed it, we really want to be able to get to locations around the Puget sound without taking all day. So were looking at a used Ranger Tug 25 as a good "starter" boat. We really need to get some experience under our belt, make sure the boating lifestyle will stick for a long time, and then maybe we go for something larger (especially after I retire). Onto my question:

If I see 10 boats for sale around 95-115k, what do you think the actual sale price might typically be? (assuming the survey isn't coming back poorly). Some of these boats have been sitting on the market for months with little to no price change. I feel like this winter would be a good time to finally buy after looking for 3 years.

Thanks everyone!

Depends if you fall in love with it it maybe 10% higher, if it is a gem