USCG boarding at night with no announcement?

[Wdeertz]

If suspected of piracy or violating US laws, then they can board but used to generally go through the state department for permission. The state department would arrange with country of registry. That may be dated info but I don't think so.

Territorial waters are out to 12nm.

My point exactly, I was informed they were 40nm of Key Largo so clearly international waters. I fully support the USCG mission but wasn’t aware it extended to international waters. What had they been non US flagged?

 

[proudsailor]

As a young ROTC midshipman back in the late 80s on a sailboat the coast guard confiscated and assigned to our ROTC sail team, was near Key West and was captain of the watch in the middle of the night. I gave the helm to another so I could use the head. With my harness and pants down around my ankles, Coast Guard comes in hot and loud w/ spot lights on. Scared the you know what out of me (so I was in the appropriate spot). Tried to stand up quickly to get topside and my harness was tangled up on foot pump. We spent 10 minutes on the VHF yelling "we're a Navy Sailing Vessel!" Eventually they told us that's their routine to capture drug runners. Quite the element of surprise. And it still works.....

 

[SteveK]

Is there a requirement to report a US departure?

probably none, but I would expect a boarding going into the US and not leaving.

 

[Sababa]

The proper procedure in this sort of situation is to comply, make no sudden movements, and thank them for their service.

 

[psneeld]

So any vessel regardless of its flagged country can be freely boarded within the 200nm economic zone can be boarded?

In the EEZ, if any vessel is engaging in activities that may be considered violating US Laws, then yes they can be boarded.

Back in the day.... when boarding vessels in international waters which are also the vast majority of our EEZ, if the USCG was boarding a vessel that was not US Flagged the boarding was not automatic. Unless we had probable cause, then the State Department was consulted, as well as USCG Lawyers, to make sure the boarding was legal and there would be no complaint from the country of registry. Nowadays, communications are far superior so my guess is the protocol is still similar. Keeps everyone happy.

I have been on patrols where we trailed vessels for days waiting for permission to board. Many were often granted, but some weren't. Other vessels were abandoned and scuttled to prevent seizure of drug prior to boarding once we were detected. I also heard many a story of boardings from a 1000 mile tail till it entered Canadian waters where the Canadians stopped the vessel as soon as it crossed into its waters by shooting out the bridge windows when it wouldn't respond by radio and didn't stop on command to the simple, quick boarding for obvious probable cause.






Some gran

 

[ancora]

Here in San Diego we were stopped and boarded by CG reservists. I told them our vessel was a Coast Guard Auxiliary Operational facility and got back a blank stare. I showed them the sticker on the window...still nothing. After a football huddle they took their leave.

 

[KnotYet]

That was what I sort of figured but thought I’d ask the question. I wasn’t aware of any technology to cloak yourself from radar.

Various methods to deceive radar receivers and have been in use for many years.
Whether these particular USCG vessel(s) were using that tech is another question.

 

[Mac2]

Reminds me of a “no knock” police search warrant. A normal warrant is served by knocking on the door several times and announcing “police search warrant”-Very similar to a normal USCG boarding procedures. If the threat becomes so great that enforcement lives are threatened by announcing their presence, a “no knock” warrant can be issued. In the case you mention, it could be that they had intel of armed smugglers, or they are dealing with smugglers/gangs that are known to engage law enforcement.

 

[Bacchus]

Where does international waters begin? I understand the 200nm exclusive economic zone but had they not been US flagged vessels can the USCG freely board any vessel within this range? Note they were US flagged vessels so USCG can board anywhere but what if they had not been US flagged, can they freely board any vessel in international waters?

My 3 experiences were all well within international limits... NY Hbr and Great Lakes

 

[Sababa]

TL;DR, USCG can board US flagged and unflagged vessels anywhere on the planet. With foreign flagged vessels it gets more complicated.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA329162.pdf

 

[psneeld]

TL;DR, USCG can board US flagged and unflagged vessels anywhere on the planet. With foreign flagged vessels it gets more complicated.

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA329162.pdf

Pretty much what I had experienced in 15 years of LE at sea with the USCG and mentioned in post #35.

In post #26 I also mentioned my info might be dated as the world had changed since the '90s. That link is a white paper dated 1997.

Great info and probably still true but since the majority of it is laws and treaties that seem to get ignored all the time, guessing what today's operational order's are is a bet I wouldn't take.

For decades, US Navy ships have patrolled the Western Hemisphere with USCG boarding officers aboard giving the USCG powers of stopping and boarding vessels. Yesterday I read where they are sending a destroyer south on an immigration mission. Love to see the captain's orders for that patrol.

 

[mvweebles]

I fully support the USCG’s mission but boarding at night unannounced seems like a big safety issue.

What USCG considers a safety issue compared to the average recreational boater is a big gap. I remember when I first learned to ski and thought the Green Circle runs were intimidating.

I'm impressed they were able to sneak up on someone. Gotta give their training it's due.

Peter

 

[slowgoesit]

This is the only part I do not understand. Any comments, they were leaving the US mainland.

Maybe the Coast Guard thought they were seeking asylum in Cuba.

 

[23435ps]

No, there is no magic cloaking device and no, the newest USCG cutters do not really have a radar-deflecting profile design. The OP didn't say the size of the CG vessel, but 40nm offshore was likely a cutter (87' and up) vice a small boat. It could however have been the "over the horizon" cutter boat from a larger CG cutter. Those would have a small radar profile. It is more likely as has been said, the OP just didn't have their recreational vessel radar tuned properly (not a dig, just a likelihood). Other posters have commented upon the lack of a prior radio call- that area is a prime area for drug and people smuggling so a radio call may not have been in line with that cutter's operations. Same with "running dark" - very common for CG units on counternarcotics/counter-smuggling missions. There is nothing that prevented the vessel operator from calling on their own VHF once the cutter's small boat made contact. They may not have answered but it was an option. As to authority, it also has been commented that with respect to US vessels, the USCG's enforcement authority extends worldwide (though it is normally not exercised inside another countries territorial waters). As to foreign flag vessels, it is dependent on the location, the type of vessel (for example, a foreign F/V operating within 200 miles of the US is within US enforcement jurisdiction), and the flag of the vessel. CG vessels often carry enforcement personnel from other nations with which there is an agreement which can further extend their authority to stop and board a foreign flag vessel. Yes it can get complicated. But, if you are a US flagged vessel (documented or state registered) and you are hailed by the USCG for a boarding, best to cooperate and comply, anything else can raise suspicions and change the tenor of the boarding (especially on the Southern waters!).

 

[GoneFarrell]

The USS Zumwalt stealth ship was part of the Rose Festival fleet in Portland a while back.

Sloped superstructure covered with RAM tiles (radar absorbing material)

 

[Wdeertz]

Thanks for all the replies, I learned a lot from the responses. I guess the bottom line is the USCG can board any non-USA flagged vessel within 200nm by having some sort of suspicion of illegal activity. Beyond that range they can still board but gets more complicated.

By the way vhf radio contact was attempted but no response from USCG. So must have been radio silence due to suspected people smuggling activities.

 

[Sababa]

I guess the bottom line is the USCG can board any non-USA flagged vessel within 200nm by having some sort of suspicion of illegal activity.

Not exactly. They can board US flagged or non-flagged vessels at will anywhere in the world. They can board foreign flagged vessels at will within the US territorial waters up to 12 miles out, for certain purposes in the US contiguous zone up to 24 miles out, and for even more limited purposes in the exclusive economic zone up to 200 miles out, and in even more limited circumstances on the high seas. Here is a more current and concise overview:

https://www.noaa.gov/jurisdiction-over-vessels

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks for all the replies, I learned a lot from the responses. I guess the bottom line is the USCG can board any non-USA flagged vessel within 200nm by having some sort of suspicion of illegal activity......

One item to note - unlike police, USCG need no probable cause to board a vessel under their jurisdiction (any US vessel anywhere on the planet.....I am not sure when they have jurisdiction over foreign flagged vessels).

Peter

 

[Shrew]

I've never been hailed, nor heard USCG hail anyone for a boarding. They pull up close and turn on the flashing lights and siren/horn. I've had them come up broadside and ask if I minded being boarded. When I said "No I don't mind", they told me to put the boat in neutral and leave it running (calm day). They were on the boat in seconds after that.

I asked them what they would have done if I 'declined' being boarded, to which they all laughed. The officer in charge replied (smiling) "We would have boarded anyway, but this encounter would not have been nearly so cordial".

I personally could care less if they board unannounced while I'm underway. They're the ones taking the risk. I honestly question the story where the USCG had guns drawn. They chose to jump from one moving vessel to another moving vessel with a sidearm drawn. I call BS on that. I do believe that someone on the USCG vessel may have had a weapon drawn, covering his colleagues, during the operation. I have never seen, and doubt that they would draw weapons once on board without very good reason.

Like most things, these stories get turned into Paul Bunyan tales with each telling and each new person that tells it. Like this one, which started with......"I heard someone say once....."

 

[Sababa]

I've never been hailed, nor heard USCG hail anyone for a boarding. They pull up close and turn on the flashing lights and siren/horn. I've had them come up broadside and ask if I minded being boarded. When I said "No I don't mind", they told me to put the boat in neutral and leave it running (calm day). They were on the boat in seconds after that.

I asked them what they would have done if I 'declined' being boarded, to which they all laughed. The officer in charge replied (smiling) "We would have boarded anyway, but this encounter would not have been nearly so cordial".

I personally could care less if they board unannounced while I'm underway. They're the ones taking the risk. I honestly question the story where the USCG had guns drawn. They chose to jump from one moving vessel to another moving vessel with a sidearm drawn. I call BS on that. I do believe that someone on the USCG vessel may have had a weapon drawn, covering his colleagues, during the operation. I have never seen, and doubt that they would draw weapons once on board without very good reason.

Like most things, these stories get turned into Paul Bunyan tales with each telling and each new person that tells it. Like this one, which started with......"I heard someone say once....."

Exact same experience.

 

[mvweebles]

I've been boarded a half dozen times over the years. For some reason, asking for bar crossing conditions seemed to flag their interest. I was once boarded at night while crossing the Oakland Ship's Channel which is pretty busy. CG RIB hailed me from 1/4 mile away to which I requested they give me a mile to get through the channel. They replied to just stay my course and speed (7-kts or so) and they would board underway. In truth, their RIB came up and quickly dropped 3 coasties then hung off my stern 10-yards or so. At the time, I thought it was nuts to board me given my location in an active ship's channel but these guys were trained and it just didn't make a difference.

Running up/down the Pacific Coast I listened to a lot of fishing boats get boarded. CG would hail and ask them to pull-up gear on one side or the other which invariably got a grumpy response from the FV. Interestingly, FV response was always faster when the CG radioman was a female. I guess you take your entertainment where you can find it when you're off fishing.

I recall seeing a large motoryacht get boarded up the Columbia River. Probably 80+ footer. CG had them drop anchor and "muster all passenger and crew on the aft deck immediately." I always wonder what that was about.

USCG have no motivation to be anything other than safety minded. Fall back into their arms. As the saying goes "Not my monkey, not my circus" at that point. It's their show.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

A common scenario on inland waters in the US might be a USCG vessel to hail you and ask for Captain and crew names, last port of call and next. maybe another thing or 2.

From there after a check to see if you have been boarded recently and after running the names in data bases, they may wish you a safe voyage or say they will board.

 

[Wdeertz]

Not exactly. They can board US flagged or non-flagged vessels at will anywhere in the world. They can board foreign flagged vessels at will within the US territorial waters up to 12 miles out, for certain purposes in the US contiguous zone up to 24 miles out, and for even more limited purposes in the exclusive economic zone up to 200 miles out, and in even more limited circumstances on the high seas. Here is a more current and concise overview:

https://www.noaa.gov/jurisdiction-over-vessels

Is this a typo? It seems contradictory to the next sentence.

They can board US flagged or non-flagged vessels at will anywhere in the world. Or is a non-flagged vessel with no country of jurisdiction?

 

[Sababa]

Is this a typo? It seems contradictory to the next sentence.

They can board US flagged or non-flagged vessels at will anywhere in the world. Or is a non-flagged vessel with no country of jurisdiction?

A vessel that is not flying a flag. All ships have a nationality whether they are flying the flag of that nationality of not. FTA:

Article 91(1) provides that “hips have the nationality of the State whose flag they are entitled to fly.”

USCG also has the right to board a vessel that is flying a non-US flag for the limited purpose of determining that that the flag it is flying matches its underlying nationality. This is called the right of visitation, and is one of the limited circumstances in which USCG can board foreign flagged vessels on the high seas.

 

[Wdeertz]

A vessel that is not flying a flag. All ships have a nationality whether they are flying the flag of that nationality of not. FTA:


USCG also has the right to board a vessel that is flying a non-US flag for the limited purpose of determining that that the flag it is flying matches its underlying nationality. This is called the right of visitation, and is one of the limited circumstances in which USCG can board foreign flagged vessels on the high seas.

So it sounds like carte Blanche rights?

 

[Sababa]

So it sounds like carte Blanche rights?

Yes and no. They can board anybody anywhere, but the purposes for which they may board and what they can do once they have done so get more and more limited. I expect they'd be provoking an international incident if they boarded foreign flagged vessels on the high seas where they had no reason to suspect that they were flying a false flag, or knew for a fact that they weren't.

 

[long-cours.62]

The proper procedure in this sort of situation is to comply, make no sudden movements, and thank them for their service.

But with no annoucement could you know it was coast guard or piracy with blue flash light...In international water.

 

[Sababa]

The same procedure would probably also be prudent with pirates except for the part about thanking them for their service.

 

[Shrew]

Is this a typo? It seems contradictory to the next sentence.

They can board US flagged or non-flagged vessels at will anywhere in the world. Or is a non-flagged vessel with no country of jurisdiction?

Could you cite the sentence you posted? You quoted a previous post which included a link to https://www.noaa.gov/jurisdiction-over-vessels, however nowhere in that page does it state what you posted.

Here are the only references in the NOAA page:

International law permits a State to exercise varying degrees of jurisdiction over its flagged vessels, vessels within its ports, and vessels within its maritime zones (including its internal waters, territorial sea, contiguous zone, and exclusive economic zone).

A State may exercise jurisdiction over foreign flagged merchant vessels within its ports and internal waters.

Thus a State may apply its laws to foreign flagged merchant ships while they are within its ports and internal waters, which are considered part of its territory.

 

[psneeld]

It would help if serious posters read the link to the white pape in post #40. It may not all be pertinent but shows the complexity of international water's boardings even in todays world.