Upgrading batteries/systems questions

[RTressler]

I recently bought a 1998 Mainship 350 with twin Volvo Penta AD41P-A motors. The starboard motor appears to have the original alternator. Port has a newer 12411N-WBE 60A/12V alternator.

Batteries consist of:
Port starter - Group 31 Deep Cycle 105 Ah (West Marine #15020332)
Stbd starter - Group 27DC (Interstate #850982)
Gen starter/windlass - two GC2 Interstate #850284 6V golf cart batteries (in series)

Charger is ProMariner ProNauticP 1250P, capable of charging “Flooded, Sealed, AGM, GEL, LiFePO4-Lithium, Calcium/Custom”. My understanding is that whichever is selected applies to all four outputs (I’m only using three). That is, no mixing battery types on this charger.

House runs off either port or starboard starter battery - my choice. Neither one gets us through the night. Circuit breaker from charger to port keeps tripping. I’d like to update and replace the whole mess, but will need to do it in stages and not sure where to start. We’re also under way for the next year on the Great Loop, and don’t want to have to stop for long periods of time. Ideally, I’d like to end up with solar with LiFePO4 and minimize generator usage.

Can I swap out all the batteries first without changing alternators? Should I start with solar? Does anyone have a roadmap or good advice on where to begin?

I appreciate your input!

Rob

 

[Bmarler]

Without really knowing the architecture of the system, and with the time frame for upgrades before your loop departure, I think I’d keep the group 31 and dedicate it for start duty. (As long as it provides the necessary cranking amps)
Replace the single group 27 with multiple gc2. If you can fit 4 of them you can have 400 amp hours without really changing anything else.
To get more capacity than that you’ll need to look at upgrading an alternator and regulator so you can charge efficiently.
400 amp hours isn’t a lot, but it’s leaps and bounds over what you have now.

 

[Bmarler]

Just re-read you post. What’s the deal with the tripping breaker? Is that a breaker on the charger output to the port battery?

 

[tiltrider1]

As to the breaker. Could be the wire size and breaker are too small for the output of the charger. Could be a weak breaker. Could be a nicked wire that is creating a short.

As far as going to LFP. Your best path is probably to bring a second charger on board. One for the FLA batteries and one for the LFP. You will need to do some re-wiring. Both engines and alternators to a single start bank. Dc-dc charger from start bank to LFP and house wired to the LFP bank. Your windlass and thruster bank can stay as they are for now.

There are other paths depending on your budget and charging needs.

 

[Bacchus]

I really dislike the way Mainship did their wiring, especially combining house & start functions. My MS is a 2008 single 34HT some some differences to your situation/ set up.
I have worked through several step of mods but have finally moved my start to the thruster batty bank to create a pure house bank. At times I had problems with electronics dropping out when starting... likely house / start bank was low to begin and starting dropped V enough that electronics dropped & restarted. I never experience that now w separate house running electronics.

In your situation one move I'd recommend is moving the windlass to you larger start bank. I doubt you would ever run windlass w/o eng running... or at least can make that a practice...that way you are supplementing charge from eng alt.
I removed my Gen start from my ProMariner charger and relied on the gen alternator for charging. Based on suggestion from another TFer I replaced the gen batty on/off Sw with a 1-2-all-off Sw with same foot print and bolt holes. The #2 connection is used as an emergency cross connect to my house which also allows me to periodically top off the gen start from house while running or on shore charger.

I dont think I'd confuse your change over by introducing LiFePO while cruising and in the middle of changes but other more familiar w them may have a better recommendation.
I agree w Bmarler... using 4 GCs in series / parallel for one bank should get you through a nite and they are capable of starting unless very low SOC. An emergency cross connect to other start (or even jumper cable) would provide emergency back up for start.

Lastly... there are many arrangements for twin start, house & gen configuration. All could work but you need to decide which would be best for your use. I would spend some time tracing wires & understanding you configuration and exploring options.

 

[ranger58sb]

House runs off either port or starboard starter battery - my choice. Neither one gets us through the night.

I'd have thought in a Mainship the house would be served by BOTH start banks. One for some stuff, the other for the rest. Thought that was the standard Luhrs Group approach... although maybe a PO could have changed that for some reason...

Depending on space, you could maybe just add a battery (or more?) in parallel to both main start banks... (and make 'em all G31s)... or investigate some of the oddball sizes with more capacity that might fit the same footprint (Odyssey, maybe).

-Chris

 

[Comodave]

I would want the start batteries to do nothing but start the engines.have a dedicated house bank. The start batteries should be cranking batteries not deep cycle. Everyone wants to go lithium but it isn’t always the most cost effective way, maybe it is but you need to figure out what you want and then cost it all out.

 

[RTressler]

Just re-read you post. What’s the deal with the tripping breaker? Is that a breaker on the charger output to the port battery?

Charger output. Two outputs have a 60A inline fuse. This line has a 60A wall mounted breaker, which leads me to believe the previous owner got tired of replacing burnt fuses.

 

[RTressler]

As to the breaker. Could be the wire size and breaker are too small for the output of the charger. Could be a weak breaker. Could be a nicked wire that is creating a short.

As far as going to LFP. Your best path is probably to bring a second charger on board. One for the FLA batteries and one for the LFP. You will need to do some re-wiring. Both engines and alternators to a single start bank. Dc-dc charger from start bank to LFP and house wired to the LFP bank. Your windlass and thruster bank can stay as they are for now.

There are other paths depending on your budget and charging needs.

Great input. Thanks. I think the wire and breaker are sized correctly, but I’ll double check. I was thinking maybe a short downstream was causing the problem.

I’ll look at starting where you recommend with the batteries and charger.

 

[RTressler]

I really dislike the way Mainship did their wiring, especially combining house & start functions. My MS is a 2008 single 34HT some some differences to your situation/ set up.
I have worked through several step of mods but have finally moved my start to the thruster batty bank to create a pure house bank. At times I had problems with electronics dropping out when starting... likely house / start bank was low to begin and starting dropped V enough that electronics dropped & restarted. I never experience that now w separate house running electronics.

In your situation one move I'd recommend is moving the windlass to you larger start bank. I doubt you would ever run windlass w/o eng running... or at least can make that a practice...that way you are supplementing charge from eng alt.
I removed my Gen start from my ProMariner charger and relied on the gen alternator for charging. Based on suggestion from another TFer I replaced the gen batty on/off Sw with a 1-2-all-off Sw with same foot print and bolt holes. The #2 connection is used as an emergency cross connect to my house which also allows me to periodically top off the gen start from house while running or on shore charger.

I dont think I'd confuse your change over by introducing LiFePO while cruising and in the middle of changes but other more familiar w them may have a better recommendation.
I agree w Bmarler... using 4 GCs in series / parallel for one bank should get you through a nite and they are capable of starting unless very low SOC. An emergency cross connect to other start (or even jumper cable) would provide emergency back up for start.

Lastly... there are many arrangements for twin start, house & gen configuration. All could work but you need to decide which would be best for your use. I would spend some time tracing wires & understanding you configuration and exploring options.

Great input. Thanks. I have started to trace the wiring, but am far from understanding what’s “plugged into” what. I’ll keep working on that and take your recommendations into consideration.

 

[Delta Riverat]

That charger is rated 50A max spread over all outputs. That shouldn't be blowing 60A fuses or breakers on any line. You should look for the problem.

 

[Iggy]

I am with post #4.

Personally, and thats me..... Not knowing your budget and time in doing things. I would go for a Life04 house bank. In the 600 to 800A range. With a second charger or a charger/inverter. After that, replace both ALTs with at lest 100A ones with DC to DC charger for the house.

Than, as they die, replace the start batteries and have a switch to combine them if ever needed.

In all this, buy a hydraulic crimping tool and replace battery cables as needed or over 20yrs old. I like oversizing them one size up after doing the math. Load to length in cables.

In the time between adding the new house bank and new ALTs. You can use the genset to recharge the house. Some charger/inverters can put out 100A and more depending on what you buy.

On my boat, one engine. I was thinking of using starting bank for the genset too. Getting rid on one battery or bank you could say. But the ALT on the genset is very small and I don't want to overload it with a big starting bank. Maybe I am over thinking it on that point?

Thats my 2 cents...................

 

[Portage_Bay]

On my boat, one engine. I was thinking of using starting bank for the genset too

I want my gen to have it's own dedicated and isolated start batt. The gen is my last resort if I pull all the other batts down and can't start the mains.

 

[rslifkin]

I take an in between attitude on start batteries / banks. Every boat should have 2, and each engine or generator should have a switch to allow it to start from either one. If you have 2 mains, it's nominally 1 battery for each main engine and the generator can share with one of the mains. If you have a single, it's nominally main and gen start batteries. House batteries should be separate from the start batteries, with no loads drawing from the start batteries.

On my boat, we have 3 banks. Start 1, start 2, and house. There are 4 battery switches. On/off for house power, then a 1/2/both/off for each engine and 1 for the generator. Normally the port engine is selected to the #1 start battery, starboard engine and gen are selected to the #2 start battery. I see no need for a dedicated generator battery in that situation, as a failure of one start battery doesn't disable any equipment, it just requires a switch to the other start battery (and nothing can draw the start batteries down unless an ignition key is left on).

 

[PhilPB]

May be a bit of overkill but I had four independent battery banks: Main engine, Generator, Bow thruster, and House. This required a 2 charger setup for me.
Originally the PO had start battery tied into the house bank. When the dock pedestal breaker tripped and the boat lost shore power, the refrigerator within days drained the House bank, Main start battery and Generator battery (bilge pumps powered from house bank then had no power). After isolating the banks I no longer worried about that becoming an issue again.

 

[Iggy]

May be a bit of overkill but I had four independent battery banks: Main engine, Generator, Bow thruster, and House. This required a 2 charger setup for me.
Originally the PO had start battery tied into the house bank. When the dock pedestal breaker tripped and the boat lost shore power, the refrigerator within days drained the House bank, Main start battery and Generator battery (bilge pumps powered from house bank then had no power). After isolating the banks I no longer worried about that becoming an issue again.

Well, thats what I was driving at. I have thruster, starting, genset and house bank. I would like to get it down to 3 banks. I can use my house bank an a emergency too for starting the main engine. Worst case, move a battery from one spot a to another.

 

[rslifkin]

Well, thats what I was driving at. I have thruster, starting, genset and house bank. I would like to get it down to 3 banks. I can use my house bank an a emergency too for starting the main engine. Worst case, move a battery from one spot a to another.

The thruster bank would probably be a reasonable backup starting source. It's unlikely to be accidentally drained, and if it can handle thruster loads it should be fine to crank an engine or the gen.

 

[Bacchus]

Well, thats what I was driving at. I have thruster, starting, genset and house bank. I would like to get it down to 3 banks. I can use my house bank an a emergency too for starting the main engine. Worst case, move a battery from one spot a to another.

You might consider combining thruster & start bank depending on locations. I moved my (single eng) start from a combined start / house, that MS used frequently, to my thruster bank leaving a pure house bank. My thought is I don't need thrusters until / unless my main eng is running and as soon as eng is running alt is helping boost the start bank. I installed a batty monitor when I made the move and see very little V drop after starting so start bank is still at very high SOC. Recovery to full charge, even after thruster oper is typically very fast. I do have a dedicated gen batty, charged exclusively by gen alt. Changed my gen on/ off to a 1-2-all- off and use the #2 position as amergency cross connect to house (never needed it yet but comfirting to have) and to periodically top off gen batty from shore charger or main eng alt while running.

 

[Iggy]

I should have mentioned, My thurster bank is 24V.

But i get! Use the starting bank for the thruster. My boat was originally wired to use the house bank since it was bigger than the stating bank for the thuster.

 

[mvweebles]

I would want the start batteries to do nothing but start the engines.have a dedicated house bank. The start batteries should be cranking batteries not deep cycle. Everyone wants to go lithium but it isn’t always the most cost effective way, maybe it is but you need to figure out what you want and then cost it all out.

I agree. For me, Step #1 would be to isolate the start batteries and create an isolated house bank. Could be old school as @Bmarler suggests with 4 golf carts (or even a pair - not much but better than current setup). Use smaller alternator to charge the start bank, other (larger) alternator for the house bank. Crossover between house and start for emergency combo. I'd charge the Gen/Thruster off the start bank via an ACR.

If the OP has the chops to DIY and isn't already equipped, a hydraulic lug press is around $50 and does a nice job (example here). The materials (cable, lugs, heat shrink) adds up quickly. If you eventually go LFP, your amperage diet will go up so now is the time to oversize your cables.

I guess the big question is whether OP has space for a house bank? And of course figure out why the breaker is tripping. Step #1 to troubleshoot would be to swap the output wires between port and starboard and see if the fault follows the wire. If it does, swap wires at the circuit breakers to isolate fault......you get the idea.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[Iggy]

There are so many ways to look at this. Most not wrong, but which is better for you and the current set up you have to work with. Than add the improvements or devices.

Four years ago I add Life04 to the house. Than last year I upgraded the bow thruster and went with 24V to reduce the amps. Works great, but that introduced another problem. How to charge it with the current setup.

In some ways, I can't wait for Life04 to truly be more like a starting battery. Yes, they do make some. But I will wait on that one and see what gets introduced in a few more years.

You have to love, having a boat.......

 

[Clark]

I recently bought a 1998 Mainship 350 with twin Volvo Penta AD41P-A motors. The starboard motor appears to have the original alternator. Port has a newer 12411N-WBE 60A/12V alternator.

Batteries consist of:
Port starter - Group 31 Deep Cycle 105 Ah (West Marine #15020332)
Stbd starter - Group 27DC (Interstate #850982)
Gen starter/windlass - two GC2 Interstate #850284 6V golf cart batteries (in series)

Charger is ProMariner ProNauticP 1250P, capable of charging “Flooded, Sealed, AGM, GEL, LiFePO4-Lithium, Calcium/Custom”. My understanding is that whichever is selected applies to all four outputs (I’m only using three). That is, no mixing battery types on this charger.

House runs off either port or starboard starter battery - my choice. Neither one gets us through the night. Circuit breaker from charger to port keeps tripping. I’d like to update and replace the whole mess, but will need to do it in stages and not sure where to start. We’re also under way for the next year on the Great Loop, and don’t want to have to stop for long periods of time. Ideally, I’d like to end up with solar with LiFePO4 and minimize generator usage.

Can I swap out all the batteries first without changing alternators? Should I start with solar? Does anyone have a roadmap or good advice on where to begin?

I appreciate your input!

Rob

I had a twin engine MS350 with a similar setup. The house could switch to either port or starboard 100 Ah start battery. It couldn't run the refrig and anchor light over night. I replaced the port 100 start battery with 4 GC Trojan T105s in 2 series pairs in parallel and relocated them under the vented spiral stairs to the fly bridge. The stock alternator worked fine. I disconnected the 3 channel Charles charger from this battery (left as a backup by reconnecting the wire) and installed an inverter charger to charge these GC2s. There was no problem with the bank starting the port engine. The house can be switched to the starboard start bank in an emergency. There was already a paralleling solenoid between the P and S sides that I never had to use. This setup worked for 15 years including for the triangle and great loop and the second owner has been using it for about 7 years.

Clark