Trawler steady sails

[Don L]

Do steady sails on a trawler really make the ride better?

I am talking on something like a 40' DeFever/Ablin/Mainship.

 

[mmullins]

I would think yes. While I've never had a trawler with a mast or sail, when we used to motor sail on our sailboat, putting up the main made a significant difference in speed, economy and comfort. I know we're not talking about apples to apples but maybe at least apples to pears? Additionally, if your trawler already has a mast, a steadying sail would be significantly cheaper and less maintenance than an anti-roll system.

 

[psneeld]

Properly designed and fitted steadying sails definitely help but really depends on the overall boat for them to be as effective as other leans of steadying.

The typical trawler masts are not well designed for good steadying sails. In general they are too small and/or too short.

Jay Benford, NA wrote some articles/book parts describing proper steadying sails. Here is a blubs from Google...

"Jay Benford on Steadying Sails​

Jay Benford has a deep understanding of the importance of steadying sails in sailing. He has designed boats for various uses, including fishing, cruising, and liveaboards, and has been successful in creating boats that meet the owners' dreams. Benford's designs are known for their unique and lovely forms, balancing space and function. He has lived aboard for over a decade and a half, both on sail and power boats, which adds to his expertise in the field. Benford's approach to design ensures that boats are not only seaworthy and strong but also comfortable and enjoyable to sail."

Here is an example of his thoughts on mast size...

 

[Don L]

Do steady sails on a trawler really make the ride better?

I am talking on something like a 40' DeFever/Ablin/Mainship.

Since I have been giving boats a preference I need to block the question. I know on my sailbat putting up a sail while motoring made a big difference. But that sail was a lot bigger both in size and power compared to a trawler steady sail,

 

[PierreR]

The beauty of a trawler is not having sails to begin with. You need to get into a motor sailor to get reasonable comfort from sails.
I don't believe that you have really come to terms with giving up sail and turning a page in your life. You keep saying that we are not answering your questions but I suspect that is because we are not giving you permission to ignore reality.
All three of the boats you listed are definitely semi displacement.

 

[Don L]

ok just never mind then

meanwhile don't even talk about stabilizers again

 

[Fletcher500]

Funny.

 

[mvweebles]

Do steady sails on a trawler really make the ride better?

I am talking on something like a 40' DeFever/Ablin/Mainship.

Willard frequently came with steadying sails. Both my W30 and my current W36 had one. It's a popular topic with Willard owners.

Personally, I don't think they make much difference except in really narrow circumstances. San Francisco Bay is roughly oriented North to South. The prevailing wind comes roughly from the west so right on the beam. And it blows hard on summar afternoons - 25-30 is not uncommon. Strong winds on the beam are the perfect use-case for a steadying sail. Really sets the boat nicely and keeps the oscilation down.

So my takeaway is it takes a half-hurricane to make them effective. Or they need to be really big as shown in @psneeld post on Jay Benford above. Other than that, they are rarely effective. I'd be stunned if anyone ever wore out a steady-sail.

Peter

 

[PierreR]

ok just never mind then

meanwhile don't even talk about stabilizers again

We are not here to throw you under the bus.

 

[psneeld]

Might want to read what naval architects say on the matter as I can't fully agree with a lot posted so far. It's not wrong.... just not the full story.

 

[mvweebles]

Might want to read what naval architects say on the matter as I can't fully agree with a lot posted so far. It's not wrong.... just not the full story.

I've read some of the info and saw one large-ish boat (60-ft?) that had one from the original designer, though I forget who the designer was. Might have been Benford.

All I can tell you is they were a very popular accessory on Willards and I've traded notes with at least a dozen owners on the subject, plus I've had two and used the original equipment sail on both. Further, Willard constructed a relatively large mast and boom making a slightly larger sail possible. The sails were constructed new for Willard, presumably to the specs of their in-house Naval Architect Rod Swift (or for my W36, Wm Garden, the original Naval Architect but I have no way of knowing if the sail was part of his design or added by Willard). The conclusion from that sample: they're cute and can provide a very modest stabilizing effect in very limited conditions. But overall, not worth the effort to set.

For me, the choice between a NA's white-paper on the subject and a dozen first hand accounts is pretty clear.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Assuming that the Willard design was not a compromise and the first hand accounts were truly fair.

There are similar reports on Benford designs from owners that are as valid as anyone elses.

As they say, production boats are almost always compromises, custom onezs at least the compromises are weighted.

I would probably not want a proper steadying sail on the East Coast as the many bridges make that compromise a negative in my book. How many production companies think the same and modify designs for marketing purposes?

 

[mvweebles]

I would probably not want a proper steadying sail on the East Coast as the many bridges make that compromise a negative in my book. How many production companies think the same and modify designs for marketing purposes?

I removed my mast for two reasons related to relocating from California to Florida: First, it intefered with a long hardtop and I wanted the shade. Second, reduce air draft so I didn't have to wait for as many bridges.

The mast/boom had two purposes. First and foremost to launch/retrieve the dinghy off the top deck. Second, a steadying sail. A dinghy of any weight can be pretty unwieldy with a mast and long boom, though does have the benefit of being ambidextrous. I replaced with a Nick Jackson pipe davit to starboard so I can no longer launch to port which I ocassionally lament.

The WIllard 36 that went to Hawaii had a decent sized mast with jib and small mainsail allowing her to motorsail at 0.9 gph @ 6-kts. My boat had a twin headsail setup when I purchased her, though I doubt it was ever really flown - it was a bit bizarre to rig. If I ever had plans to go to Hawaii, I'd get a decent sail plan. But that's a far cry from a steadying sail.

I just haven't heard of anyone successfully using a steadying sail. I've seen a couple set for boat parades, but never seen one used for more than cutesy purposes. I have no doubt one could be made to be functional. But at the very least, it's not as easy as it seems. Or you'd see more traw'lers with sails.

For me, in the category of 'works on paper, not in practice.'

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I think an adequate steadying sail dang near takes you into a motorsailor look alike without the advantage of the sail being a decent propulsion sail.

I think the main reason we don't see them often is it is a compromise many don't want that bad.

For those that do, they are a viable means of roll reduction.

 

[NWexplorer]

I could see using a small sail at anchor to keep oriented into the wind, thus reducing some roll potential.

 

[Comodave]

I am not knowledgeable about steady sails. Just wanted to make that clear upfront. But if I wanted a sail boat I wouldn’t buy a powerboat. I don’t want to mess with sails, period.

 

[Don L]

a trawler with a steady sail is a trawler and NOTHING like a sailboat!

 

[psneeld]

Why would anyone with a bit of experience think otherwise?

If one knows the dynamics of a steadying sail, it in no way is supposed to provide propulsion.

It really has little to do with the wind so a properly designed one works effectively in no wind situations.

 

[mvweebles]

Why would anyone with a bit of experience think otherwise?

If one knows the dynamics of a steadying sail, it in no way is supposed to provide propulsion.

It really has little to do with the wind so a properly designed one works effectively in no wind situations.

So a boat with a lot of windage is more stable than one without, even if there is no wind?

 

[guy with a boat]

It really has little to do with the wind so a properly designed one works effectively in no wind situations.

You might want give that one some further thought…

 

[psneeld]

You might want give that one some further thought…

I don't think I have to.

The flat riding sail as the boat rolls offers resistance thus reducing the roll. They sometimes work better with wind, but the theory works without it.

Simple concept that I think few people understand. I can only think they are relating back to a sailboat and its operation.

 

[psneeld]

So a boat with a lot of windage is more stable than one without, even if there is no wind?

 

[guy with a boat]

I don't think I have to.

The flat riding sail as the boat rolls offers resistance thus reducing the roll. They sometimes work better with wind, but the theory works without it.

Simple concept that I think few people understand. I can only think they are relating back to a sailboat and its operation.

The theory might work, but the practice does not. There is no useful roll reduction with any realistic sail size and reasonable amount of roll without wind. It is of only modest effectiveness with wind. This isn’t a secret; a sail is not an effective stabilizer on a trawler in the real world.

Lots have tried (and still try) but that doesn’t make it work. Weebles gave an accurate description of how and when they have some benefit. He also gives the bottom line, shared by 99% of those that have tried, that they aren’t effective enough to be worth the trouble.

I would never suggest that you might be wrong, but only in the theoretical world of impractically extreme sail sizes and conditions does the sail stabilize a trawler. For those limited to reality, it is not the answer.

 

[PierreR]

A limp diaper offers about zero in the way of roll reduction. Water is orders of magnitude more dense than air. A limp steadying sail offers way less than one percent of the force of a wave slapping the side of the boat. Save you money or have sails that tall mast.

 

[Don L]

I am not sure where this thread topic stands anymore.

Do steady sails have value on a trawler for reducing roll and making the boat more comfortable or not?

 

[PierreR]

A steading sail offers very little if any and costs about the same as a paravane/Flopper stopper system that is very effective.

 

[RedRascal]

Do steady sails on a trawler really make the ride better?

Yes they can.

 

[Comodave]

a trawler with a steady sail is a trawler and NOTHING like a sailboat!

I hesitate to post this but you asked for opinions. But when anyone posts something you don’t like you jump on them. Maybe post the opinion you want to hear and say don’t post unless you agree with me. I never said it was like a sailboat but that I didn’t want to mess with sails. Lots of people disagree with me without being disagreeable. I always try to treat members here with courtesy. One of the sites rules is to be nice.

 

[psneeld]

I only know from my own sailboat experience that a sail DOES reduce roll when sheeted in tight and trimmed as flat as possible from just plain air resistance and enough leverage aloft. It's the opposite of a sailboat with no sail up and all that weight aloft in a beam swell. Not theoretical in my experience.

I also have read plenty of reports of mild success. I think most "failures" were from TT owners who used an improperly designed rig (more of a marketing thing or dinghy hoist) an got little or no roll resistance. That is exactly what has been written about and without a proper rig, one shouldn't expect noticeable results.

I agree there are better setups more effective at lessening roll, but like everything, compromises abound for all.

Water versus air density is a red herring discussion, won't even waste time there.

 

[PierreR]

Let's define what we are talking about. In my opinion if the sail is effective you have a motor sailor. There are some out there that are very much a trawler with enough sail to be effective. Just search under motor sailor. A Island Trader 40 comes to mind. To be effective sail comes with some ballast and more keel.
I have no argument with sails being effective on a trawler. Just bear mind that you are giving up bridge clearance and shoal draft. You are effectively neither a trawler or a sailboat. There is certainly a niche for that product but for trawler folks wanting stabilization a paravane rig with fish and flopper stoppers is the way to go.