To upgrade or not to upgrade ?

[mvweebles]

Just for my understanding, could you explain how you saw the stabilizers are installed incorrectly ? We don't have stabilizers on our Defever, so am not that familiar with stabilizers, in recognizing problems with them. .

Guessing TT was referring to this pic - not sure, but the pillow blocks should be glassed into the hull with roving similar to how stringers are constructed. I know little of Flemings but would have thought these blocks would be part of initial build so could be fully glassed. As an after market addition, difficult due to obstructions forward and aft.

I too am surprised classification fell to C. That's a big drop - guessing the saloon modification reduced ability to de-water decks, and perhaps window/ports were replaced with lesser quality.

Mambo - early in this thread you said "almost seems too good to be true....." Struck me at the time.

Peter

Peter

 

[Mambo42]

Your current boat generally meets your needs and you have worked through all the issues. Do you really want to start over again vs. enjoying your cruising now? That med moor issue sounds like it alone is a deal breaker.

The Med mooring is indeed important, especially when you come into a port with 20 kts of wind and you need to get that bow line tight up quickly. Already with our Defever it is interesting to do that with just 2 persons and that is while I can fully control the boat remotely.
This Fleming is more suitable for a box mooring or side mooring, which you cannot do in the Med.

And you are right, it does not make any sense to buy a slightly bigger boat if the only thing I get is more problems. This boat has to be in turn key condition, otherwise it does not make any sense.

By the way my wife and I just celebrated 40 years!

Congratulations ! And many more years to come I hope. !!

 

[twistedtree]

Guessing TT was referring to this pic - not sure, but the pillow blocks should be glassed into the hull with roving similar to how stringers are constructed. I know little of Flemings but would have thought these blocks would be part of initial build so could be fully glassed. As an after market addition, difficult due to obstructions forward and aft.

Peter View attachment 134631

And the way it's plumbed, only one cylinder is acting at any time, and always pulling. What's the point of dual cylinders? I think it should be plumbed so the cylinders are both acting in equal and opposite directions.


Whether it's intentionally or mistakenly done this way, it seriously calls into question all the other workmanship on the boat.

 

[twistedtree]

One thing you can count on is that if you bought this boat, when the time comes YOU would be the guy trying for years to sell it with no success.

 

[mvweebles]

And the way it's plumbed, only one cylinder is acting at any time, and always pulling. What's the point of dual cylinders? I think it should be plumbed so the cylinders are both acting in equal and opposite directions.


Whether it's intentionally or mistakenly done this way, it seriously calls into question all the other workmanship on the boat.

I wondered about the tee. What you say makes sense. Wesmar's smallest system is a single actuator system. In effect, although showing two actuators, the Flemings system is a single actuator system too. It would think some corners were cut either in install/configuration, or in original spec.

Peter

 

[Pete Meisinger]

Changing boats in mid stream sounds like an expensive decision. Just because the dealer will take your boat in on trade does not make it a good deal. Crunch the numbers and remember that the new boat will also need modifications.

pete

 

[rgano]

It’s a Fleming…. Case closed IMO. It is my favorite boat. The only downside is the smaller engine room. But did I say, it’s a Fleming? I don’t know your financial situation but if it were me I would jump on it.

Ohhhhh yeah!

 

[twistedtree]

I wondered about the tee. What you say makes sense. Wesmar's smallest system is a single actuator system. In effect, although showing two actuators, the Flemings system is a single actuator system too. It would think some corners were cut either in install/configuration, or in original spec.

Peter

It kind of looks like a Naiad actuator, but maybe not? Do you think it's a Wesmar? I just know that then wood block installation is typical of Naiad.

 

[Mambo42]

And the way it's plumbed, only one cylinder is acting at any time, and always pulling. What's the point of dual cylinders? I think it should be plumbed so the cylinders are both acting in equal and opposite directions.


Whether it's intentionally or mistakenly done this way, it seriously calls into question all the other workmanship on the boat.

Thanks for the explanation. Just for my clarification. Are those 2 actuators on the picture with an incoming and outgoing hydraulic hose attached to them ?
Doesn't that mean they can work both ways, depending on the direction of flow of the hydraulic fluid ?

The wooden block is indeed somewhat weird, however from the information I gather they were installed in 2017 and are made by Vetus.

 

[Mambo42]

It kind of looks like a Naiad actuator, but maybe not? Do you think it's a Wesmar? I just know that then wood block installation is typical of Naiad.

According to the info on the site of the broker we are dealing with Vetus stabilizers. To be honest I had no idea Vetus made stabilizers, so could be incorrect information.

 

[mvweebles]

It kind of looks like a Naiad actuator, but maybe not? Do you think it's a Wesmar? I just know that then wood block installation is typical of Naiad.

Not a wesmar. Attached is a pic I found via Google (I can't get to my ER right now as my saloon floor is being refinished this week). This would likely be their smaller system suitable for boats such as my Willard 36.

In comparison, the mechanism on the Fleming (reattached for convenience) seems lightly built compared to the Wesmar - note the compression rod cage on the cylinder and the cast housing. Maybe it makes no difference, but maybe it does. The cylinders on the Fleming look a bit exposed.

Peter

 

[Mambo42]

Changing boats in mid stream sounds like an expensive decision. Just because the dealer will take your boat in on trade does not make it a good deal. Crunch the numbers and remember that the new boat will also need modifications.

pete

Changing boats was not our idea at all, after all we just about finished upgrading our Defever. She is almost at the point where we say: 'now she is perfect', but we still need to spend about 100.000 for stabilizers and about 30.000 for lithiums.
So when I add that to the current value I am not that far off from this Fleming, which has 3 cabins, compared to our 2.

I have to find out how much we need to add or change, have not seen the boat yet in person. Solar panels are missing, so that is a definite item.

And need to check if this boat can be controlled remotely. Our Defever can be completely controlled remotely from any point in the boat. If i want I can handle our boat on my own and I would like to see that in any next boat.

But, if this boat has been in a crash then I will simply forget about it. Also if the CE rating of C is correct this boat is not for us.

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks for the explanation. Just for my clarification. Are those 2 actuators on the picture with an incoming and outgoing hydraulic hose attached to them ?

Doesn't that mean they can work both ways, depending on the direction of flow of the hydraulic fluid ?



The wooden block is indeed somewhat weird, however from the information I gather they were installed in 2017 and are made by Vetus.

Hydraulic stabilizers are actually pretty simple. The gyro system triggers an electronic relay to actuate a hydraulic valve.

The Wesmar single actuator I just posted can be activated in both in and out direction. On the Fleming, because there is a common return, each actuator only works in one direction. It's not a bad design, but is limited in power. I'd carefully check sizing of the system for the boat.

Also, the wood block on the Fleming is normal. But if you notice the block on the Wesmar pic I posted, appears to be heavily glassed in. The Fleming might be okay, but worthy of closer inspection if you were to proceed.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks for the explanation. Just for my clarification. Are those 2 actuators on the picture with an incoming and outgoing hydraulic hose attached to them ?

Doesn't that mean they can work both ways, depending on the direction of flow of the hydraulic fluid ?



The wooden block is indeed somewhat weird, however from the information I gather they were installed in 2017 and are made by Vetus.

When one cylinder is pushing the other is pulling. Normally that would be done by joining opposite ports on each cylinder. But here the rear ports are joined together, and the rod end ports each have separate hoses. So pressurizing one rod end causes that cylinder to retract and forces the opposite cylinder to extend. Then vice versa for moving in the other direction.

 

[KnotYet]

When one cylinder is pushing the other is pulling. Normally that would be done by joining opposite ports on each cylinder. But here the rear ports are joined together, and the rod end ports each have separate hoses. So pressurizing one rod end causes that cylinder to retract and forces the opposite cylinder to extend. Then vice versa for moving in the other direction.

Something that bugs me about the Fleming's layout is that ports being used for
power have a reduced surface area compared to using the lower pair that are t'ed.
This may have been done to provide a somewhat faster response time at the
expense of reducing the total power available.

 

[ranger58sb]

The Med mooring is indeed important, especially when you come into a port with 20 kts of wind and you need to get that bow line tight up quickly. Already with our Defever it is interesting to do that with just 2 persons and that is while I can fully control the boat remotely.

Sorry for digression, but could you hum a few bars about bow lines and med mooring?

I thought bow lines were being tied off to an underwater mooring point underwater, ahead of where the bow ends up. Similar to using your anchor/rode at the bow. No?

-Chris

 

[Mambo42]

Sorry for digression, but could you hum a few bars about bow lines and med mooring?

I thought bow lines were being tied off to an underwater mooring point underwater, ahead of where the bow ends up. Similar to using your anchor/rode at the bow. No?

-Chris

Hi Chris,

In most parts of the Med you have to go stern to, squeezing yourself in between other boats or, if the port is not full, you take any spot available.

There are basically two ways. The first one means you use your own anchor, drop it at a good distance (appr 50 mtr) from where your bow will end up and then you roll out the chain as you go backwards. Once you get the stern lines on you move the boat forward for a couple of meters, tighten up the anchor and then move those same meters backwards again. That way your anchor will be tight and you will not move further backwards, even at higher wind speeds.
The other way is to use the bowline that is lying underwater. Ports and marinas drop large blocks of concrete in the water, attach a lot of short chains and long sturdy lines to them. A smaller guideline is then attached to the sturdy line and that smaller line will be attached to a ring on the shore. So when you come in stern to, you throw your stern lines to the guys who come out to help you and in return they will hand you the guideline of the bowline.
The idea is then that you walk that guideline to the bow of your ship, pull up the thicker bow line and then repeat the same as you would do with your anchor. So you get the bow line across a cleat, move the boat 2 meters forward, really tighten up that bow line and then move the boat backwards again until you have the desired distance to the shore.

Mooring sideways is only possible when the marina is empty and when you get permission to do so. The harbormaster will always tell you where you need to park the boat, you have to follow his instructions.

On this Fleming moving the guideline to the bow of the boat is problematic. When they hand you the guideline you will be on the aft deck or on the swim platform, but there is no way you can move forward. So now you have to hang that guideline somewhere, go through the salon of the boat and try to pick the line up again. Only then can you move it forward. If you have 2 persons on board you have 1 person at the helm and the other one on the stern. But in this Fleming you ideally need one more person so you can hand the guideline to each other.
If there is no wind it is not a big problem, but if there is a lot of wind on the bow or from the forward quarters it becomes a problem. One person has to keep the boat in position, while the other one has to struggle with that guideline.
You could of course come up with an intricate system of moving the guideline to the bow, but that is going to be a bit of inventing.

So that is what makes this boat less desirable in the Med.
Hope that explains it a bit.

 

[twistedtree]

Something that bugs me about the Fleming's layout is that ports being used for
power have a reduced surface area compared to using the lower pair that are t'ed.
This may have been done to provide a somewhat faster response time at the
expense of reducing the total power available.

Right, non-rod side will have more power than the rod side. That aspect of the build doesn't make sense either.

 

[Furycove]

Try getting in touch with David Miles at Fleming Europe. He is based in Southampton, and has been with Fleming for years, he probably knows the history of every Fleming in Europe (he is a great guy, and loves talking about Fleming's) Hopefully he can clear things up for you.
I would have to agree that this boat is no longer a Fleming... (ours came with a CE "A" rating)
his phone is +44 (0) 1489 886855
his email is david@flemingyachtseurope.com
Merry Christmas!

 

[Comodave]

I tried to look at the photos of the Fleming but Yachtworld kept crashing when I was looking at them so I gave up. If the Fleming is in that bad shape then I would pass even though it is a Fleming.

But if it could work out then the Med moor thing could be a problem still. What if you preposition a line from the bow to the stern before you approach the marina. Then when you back to the dock and the dock hand gives you the line just tie it to the stern end of the prepositioned line, run to the bow and pull on the line bringing the line from the dock to the bow.

 

[ranger58sb]

The other way is to use the bowline that is lying underwater. Ports and marinas drop large blocks of concrete in the water, attach a lot of short chains and long sturdy lines to them. A smaller guideline is then attached to the sturdy line and that smaller line will be attached to a ring on the shore. So when you come in stern to, you throw your stern lines to the guys who come out to help you and in return they will hand you the guideline of the bowline.

The idea is then that you walk that guideline to the bow of your ship, pull up the thicker bow line and then repeat the same as you would do with your anchor.

So you get the bow line across a cleat, move the boat 2 meters forward, really tighten up that bow line and then move the boat backwards again until you have the desired distance to the shore.

On this Fleming moving the guideline to the bow of the boat is problematic. When they hand you the guideline you will be on the aft deck or on the swim platform, but there is no way you can move forward.

Thanks. It was the guideline part -- and walking that from the stern to the bow -- that I hadn't known about.

Then I had to look at the YW listing on the boat you're considering... (modified from a normal F55)... to understand why it'd be problematic to get that guideline from stern to bow. (We used to be docked next door to the local Fleming dealer, and they kept a dozen or so of their boats in our marina, so I'm familiar with the normal 55 layout.)

Managing the Med-moor guideline looks like a showstopper to me, too.

-Chris

 

[Insequent]

FYI here is a pic of my Naiad installation, part way through, in 2013.

 

[twistedtree]

FYI here is a pic of my Naiad installation, part way through, in 2013.

That's a properly glassed in mounting block.


I've been trying to find info on Vetus stabilizers and am coming up pretty empty. I'd be curious to see how they say to plumb the hydraulics.

 

[mvweebles]

Install manual for Vetus Roll Dampening System (vs Stabilizers, thus the difficulty in searching). Note diagram page 24 showing tee. Also note their "Pyramid Block" pillow block vs the rectangular one shown on the Fleming. Not a big deal, but different than what was installed.

https://vetus.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/120402.05_r03_2022_06_STABILIZERS_EN.pdf

According to their brochure, Vetus makes fairly small stabilizers - their largest is 0.7 m2, or about 7.5sf. If I remember, a friend's KK42 had 6sf fins. TT - what size fins do you have?

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

Install manual for Vetus Roll Dampening System (vs Stabilizers, thus the difficulty in searching). Note diagram page 24 showing tee. Also note their "Pyramid Block" pillow block vs the rectangular one shown on the Fleming. Not a big deal, but different than what was installed.

https://vetus.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/120402.05_r03_2022_06_STABILIZERS_EN.pdf

According to their brochure, Vetus makes fairly small stabilizers - their largest is 0.7 m2, or about 7.5sf. If I remember, a friend's KK42 had 6sf fins. TT - what size fins do you have?

Peter

You Google skills are better than mine, and it turns out it's plumbed correctly. The teed connection is used to center the fins. Never seen it done that way, but apparently it works.

 

[SteveK]

I tried to look at the photos of the Fleming but Yachtworld kept crashing when I was looking at them so I gave up. If the Fleming is in that bad shape then I would pass even though it is a Fleming.

But if it could work out then the Med moor thing could be a problem still. What if you preposition a line from the bow to the stern before you approach the marina. Then when you back to the dock and the dock hand gives you the line just tie it to the stern end of the prepositioned line, run to the bow and pull on the line bringing the line from the dock to the bow.

I had a look at all the pictures and noted that the engines lacked enough pictures. They were stated to be 2005 vintage, not necessarily the install date by current owner with 700 hours on them, just broken in.

Since Fleming was never in my sights I wondered if the size 435HP was the same as original or an upsize, then was surprised at a cruising speed of 8 knots with a 14 max.
If not a higher HP install to try and improve performance, then one has to wonder why they both needed to be replaced whether done in 2005 or anywhere up to 4 years ago (2018) when the boat was first noticed for sale when it was only 17 years old.

 

[mvweebles]

You Google skills are better than mine, and it turns out it's plumbed correctly. The teed connection is used to center the fins. Never seen it done that way, but apparently it works.

I got lucky searching their site. My guess is your Google skills have to be pretty good after building a couple complex boats and specifying various bits/bobs. I know my refit have really advanced my search skills.

I really suspect the Vetus stabilizers are made for smaller vessels - 7.5sf fins just isn't that large, and may even be a stretch for the Fleming 55 whereas 7.5sf are in the middle range of Wesmar, ABT, Naiad.

At the beginning of the thread, I didn't realize the OP was in Europe. I can certainly see the scarcity of decent trawlers. I understand his motivation and conundrum. Not sure how expensive surveys are there but might be a decent investment to spend a day with a qualified surveyor to discuss......and ping other Fleming owners.

Peter

 

[tiltrider1]

A side note. Boat says it is a 2001. Cat 3208 production ended in 1993. This is a strange engine to be in this boat.

 

[Comodave]

A side note. Boat says it is a 2001. Cat 3208 production ended in 1993. This is a strange engine to be in this boat.

That is a bit perplexing. They may have put in reman engines so they didn’t have to change everything else.

 

[SteveK]

A side note. Boat says it is a 2001. Cat 3208 production ended in 1993. This is a strange engine to be in this boat.

Then there is false advertising OR?

Engine Make
Caterpilar
Engine Model
3208
Engine Year
2005
Total Power
435hp
Engine Hours
700
Engine Type
Inboard

https://www.yachtworld.com/yacht/2001-fleming-55-6919208/