To ELCI or Not to ELCI

[freedomwaters]

Hi I'm rewiring a tiny house boat and after some research I came across the ABYC saying an ELCI is needed. Is it required or can a main gfci breaker work? I understand there is an amp tolerance difference but why the need exactly for an elci? Also what or who exactly is the ABYC?

any help would be appreciated as I'll have 3 power feeds to the boat.

 

[O C Diver]

It will depend on where you are keeping the boat (marina or a dock you own). Not sure what you mean by "3 power feeds ". ABYC is an organization of boat builders and other entities that develop "best practices " ideally targeted at new boat construction. While they have no legal authority, if you don't follow some of their "best practices ", you may find it difficult to get insurance. Not sure if this falls in that category.

Ted

 

[freedomwaters]

It will depend on where you are keeping the boat (marina or a dock you own). Not sure what you mean by "3 power feeds ". ABYC is an organization of boat builders and other entities that develop "best practices " ideally targeted at new boat construction. While they have no legal authority, if you don't follow some of their "best practices ", you may find it difficult to get insurance. Not sure if this falls in that category.

Ted

Hey thanks for the fast reply. I'll have a bow and stern shore inlet one will be used mostly by a generator and the other feed would be an inverter. (Genset,Shore,Inverter). I plan to just anchor around mostly and I want to feel secure that its done correctly when I pull into a marina.

I've been working on how to handle all these power feeds to pass through an elci. I think using some switches and subpanels may be the best bet for my setup. :shrug:

 

[twistedtree]

If you are doing this yourself, then I think the ABYC documents will be a really good investment for you. The ABYC web site shows the various membership levels, what gains access to the standards, etc. If you are hiring someone, be sure they are ABYC trained, and get in writing that the work will be done in accordance with the standards.

 

[freedomwaters]

If you are doing this yourself, then I think the ABYC documents will be a really good investment for you. The ABYC web site shows the various membership levels, what gains access to the standards, etc. If you are hiring someone, be sure they are ABYC trained, and get in writing that the work will be done in accordance with the standards.

Ok thanks I'll look into it. I want to do this myself and perhaps hire an inspection.

 

[freedomwaters]

It will depend on where you are keeping the boat (marina or a dock you own). Not sure what you mean by "3 power feeds ". ABYC is an organization of boat builders and other entities that develop "best practices " ideally targeted at new boat construction. While they have no legal authority, if you don't follow some of their "best practices ", you may find it difficult to get insurance. Not sure if this falls in that category.

Ted

I'm reading your switch post I like your idea on relays. I'll probably just use manual switches

 

[O C Diver]

Hey thanks for the fast reply. I'll have a bow and stern shore inlet one will be used mostly by a generator and the other feed would be an inverter. (Genset,Shore,Inverter). I plan to just anchor around mostly and I want to feel secure that its done correctly when I pull into a marina.

I've been working on how to handle all these power feeds to pass through an elci. I think using some switches and subpanels may be the best bet for my setup. :shrug:

Regarding the 2 inlets, a switch that has a center "off" position, switching both the line voltage and neutral, will take care of selecting between the two. It's important that the power disconnects from one before connecting to the other. I have 2 inlets on my boat, and have it wired that way with a rotary switch.

Depending on the inverter, it may have a transfer switch built in that could switch between shore power and some circuits.

Ted

 

[freedomwaters]

Regarding the 2 inlets, a switch that has a center "off" position, switching both the line voltage and neutral, will take care of selecting between the two. It's important that the power disconnects from one before connecting to the other. I have 2 inlets on my boat, and have it wired that way with a rotary switch.

Depending on the inverter, it may have a transfer switch built in that could switch between shore power and some circuits.

Ted

yeah right now i have a three position 1 0 2 rotary cam switch but thinking of going with a 4 position 0 1 2 3 and from there through the elci and to either a relay from your idea or to a two position

0 1 2 3
1 = shore to switch below
2 = gen to switch below
3 = inverter to switch below

elci

1 0 2 (maybe a relay?)

1 = From above switch to charging panel (cant post a link to it I'm guessing...)
2 = From above switch to Inverter manual switch sub panel

I think this will work? The reason I cant or guess shouldn't use an auto transfer switch to charging panel is because it charges my 12v bank and would create a loop with inverter to batteries... ?

I can't think of an easier way and still use an elci.

Oh the sad bit is the generator is 15 feet from panel. (reading if the inlet is more than 10 feet from panel there needs to be another elci)

 

[O C Diver]

If your inverter has a battery charger built in, you may want to consider how shore power or the generator powers the battery charger.

Ted

 

[freedomwaters]

thats why I'm think kicking it over to a sub panel while on inverter power would work. or use a remote to inverter to turn it on and off when I want to use it and just use an auto transfer switch.
I'll have 3 loads
Stove, Hotwater and outlets.

I'm also going to have solar as well as the outboard(with battery isolator) to charge house batteries if need be.

??? there is so much to learn from working on this boat. I've stripped it all the way down to the hull and rebuilt so far.

 

[Comodave]

I would suggest that you hire a certified marine electrician now to help you plan the installation and make suggestions. Then you do the work and have the electrician come back and check the work after you are done.

 

[freedomwaters]

k I'm going to contact someone from https://abycinc(dot)org/mpage/findatech

 

[psneeld]

There are a lot of vessel wiring diagrams available on the net.

If starting from scratch and wiring a boat, not sure outside "designing" is all that important unless one really doesn't get the basics.

An ELCI designed into the system is a bit pricey but not so much on a DIY and will keep you in ABCY wishes and let you know quickly if there are mistakes/problems with your system wiring.

 

[freedomwaters]

There are a lot of vessel wiring diagrams available on the net.

If starting from scratch and wiring a boat, not sure outside "designing" is all that important unless one really doesn't get the basics.

An ELCI designed into the system is a bit pricey but not so much on a DIY and will keep you in ABCY wishes and let you know quickly if there are mistakes/problems with your system wiring.

hey thanks. Ive wired most all of it already up to my switches. I enjoy learning everything and feel diy is the best practice especially if something breaks. Electrical and anything marine related seems highly over priced even if it is best practices. Ideally us diy'ers can find a more reasonable and practical way without rigging stuff just to work. I think the biggest error I had in this boat was not being sure what my design was.

 

[ranger58sb]

Electrical and anything marine related seems highly over priced even if it is best practices.

I don't think I'd say "over" priced, at least for everything, all the time. Two factors, access and overhead, are usually at play. And then there's that whole "knowledge and skill" thing, to me a valuable factor.

For example, a 15-minute fix on the bench might take two hours or more because of challenging access. Even while the tech's previous experience is what holds the time down to those few hours. And then the fix-it company has to stock parts, run trucks, pay insurances, etc., etc., etc.

I try to DIY as much as I can, but sometimes I either don't know how, can't get there from here, or don't have specialized tools. Can't say I begrudge paying for help in those cases.

-Chris

 

[Jc180]

GFCI breakers were mandated for marinas by the National Electric Code. The 5 ma trip set point caused widespread nuisance tripping due to inherent moisture in the marine environment. So the Code was revised to go to the ELCI breakers with a 30 ma trip set point. ABYC has followed to require the ELCI. Don’t know if enough time has passed for meaningful experience on nuisance tripping at the 30 ma set point. For older boats, even if rewiring, think existing equipment may present nuisance tripping potential. Keep in mind ABYC is for new boats, although as others have said Surveyors and insurance providers attempt to invoke for older boats.

All of that said, think a reasonable approach for an older boat is to install conventional main AC circuit breakers and GFCI receptacles in galley, heads and engine room/bilge areas. A galvanic isolator in shore power ground wires is also a good idea.

 

[Comodave]

The dockside GFI are now mandated for private docks as well as marinas. I use 6mAmp GFI breakers on my home dock. I figure that if my boat works on 6 mAmp then it should work at marinas that have 30 mAmp breakers. And so far it has held true. Our last boat would trip the 6mAmp breakers just by plugging it into the dock. I ended up rewiring that boat and found many mistakes made by the builder, and POs too. When I got done it would run everything on the boat on the 6 mAmp breakers and it worked at the newly rewired docks in our area also.

 

[Comodave]

If I remember correctly the new NEC in 2011 mandated GFIs at new or renovated marinas. The new NEC in 2017 mandated GFIs on private docks that are new or renovated. When they put electric service on the lot next door last year they said that the service box had to go on the shore side of our boardwalk rather than the water side.

 

[Stevecman]

Keep in mind that the ABYC standard also requires that a main shore power breaker (ELCI or otherwise) must be located within 10’ of the point where the wiring of shore power receptacle on the boat enters the hull. In the case of multiple receptacles, the wiring of EACH of these receptacles to the main panel/selector switch must comply.

In the common case where there is a receptacle close to the panel, and one or more receptacles elsewhere (such as the bow or stern) that are greater than 10’ away from the panel/selector switch, these distant receptacles will need their own breakers in an accessible location.