Thoughts on 29 year old Fleming 55

[l00smarble]

The boat is in pristine condition (for the age). Some things have been addressed like foredeck teak already replaced with non-skid but other teak decks pretty decent. Gelcoat and varnish excellent. Canvas new. Tender decent. Many, many things to like about this vessel.

To be up front this vessel is at the absolute top (maybe beyond) of the budget range and size range we are considering. I do love Flemings but for us to get into one it would have to be an older one and it would be a stretch and we would not be the kind of buyers who can then turn around and spend another $200K gettng the boat up to speed.

Basically I'm comfortable with the condition of most everything and most stuff is essentially turn-key right now but what I am nervous about are the motors. CAT 3208TAs nearing 6,000 hours. They supposedly run great at the moment and I don't doubt that. The owners are very festidious and seem to keep up with everything very nicely. Supposedly there are very detailed maintenance records and years and years of oil analysis results kept over time and they got major services done including new aftercoolers not long ago. I have not seen all these records yet but I trust that they do exist and would be able to be reviewed and shared with my mechanic before an in depth engine survey.

Assuming the records show favorable trends and boat runs great and even if survey looks good for 6,000 hours that is still 6,000 hours. I would not be concerned about 6,000 hours in a "lazy" low HP full displacement application with these are high HP turbo'd and aftercooled. CAT says that what matters is how much fuel has been run through them more than the hours and that the motors are good for about 30,000 gallons run through.

Am I thinking correctly: A Fleming 55 cruised at 10kts is known to use about 10gph which is 5gph per engine. At this rate/speed: 30,000gal life / 5gph = 6,000 hours which is where the motors are about now. Of course it is possible the Fleming cruised at 8kts or at 14kts. Either way if 30,000 gal through is all I can expect I don't know if this is the right boat for me despite everything else exceeding expectation for the year/age.

I need 1,000 hours approx to do the Loop with side trips so I would need to get to near 7,000 hours to complete just my first trip. And these motors can't be rebuilt in the boat. When they are done they have to come out and that is not something I want to sign up for during my first year or two of ownership. They could be good for a 1,000 hour loop but maybe not. And if I want to resell the boat one day with 7k or 8k hours the buyer will have an even worse outlook that I do at 6k hours.

Am I thinking right?

 

[socalrider]

Dream boat for sure! What's the rated HP on the Cats? No personal experience but I know the standard TA's are 375hp, but they made some at 425hp which have much worse reputations. Imagine engine room is quite tight with those V8's, so that might be another consideration. At a minimum you'd want a really good engine survey done - do they have a history of oil samples by chance? Good maintenance logs? Evidence of recent heat exchanger/intercooler replacement? As I recall that's a pretty expensive job, but I'm sure others have more direct experience.

 

[l00smarble]

Dream boat for sure! What's the rated HP on the Cats? No personal experience but I know the standard TA's are 375hp, but they made some at 425hp which have much worse reputations. Imagine engine room is quite tight with those V8's, so that might be another consideration. At a minimum you'd want a really good engine survey done - do they have a history of oil samples by chance? Good maintenance logs? Evidence of recent heat exchanger/intercooler replacement? As I recall that's a pretty expensive job, but I'm sure others have more direct experience.

435hp I think. and yes the wider V8s make for less room in the engine room than later model inline Cummins. As mentioned in post there are extensive service records including years of oil analysis so yes tons of good info and yes aftercoolers have been recently replaced. But even if everything checks out as good as possible I'm still concerned. That kind of the question. Is there a world where enough records, info, oil analysis, and expert survey that I can come away confident the motors have another 1-2K hours in them?

 

[Crux]

I believe your thinking is correct.

The present owner is facing these engine headwind facts with you, and any future prospect as well.

One thought, is to reduce your offer by the cost of 1 overhaul..... per a written estimate from qualified Cat specialist. At least the risk would be shared

 

[tiltrider1]

While I believe that these engines easily have another 4000 hours in them, you have entered the realm of unknown.

I think it a bit naive to buy this boat and not expect an engine repower before you sell it. This is not to say I believe the engines will fail. I believe it will be hard to convince someone to buy a boat with 7,000 plus hours on it at the price Flemmings command.

I do not know where banks are at these days. Last time I talked to a banker they didn’t want to loan on anything older than 30 years. This could Be another head wind to selling the boat.

I am not saying buy or run. This boat is probably priced right for the right person. I just don’t know if you are the right person.

 

[Nordlund Xpress]

Among many other engine survey items, make sure all three coolers (transmission, heat exchangers and after coolers) have been removed and cleaned or better replaced in the last 6 years (CAT cycle is every 6 years). Not inexpensive and worth negotiating the price if not much life left before next cycle. We have several friends in our club, with 30+ year old Flemings. They love em and are often mistaken for being newer than they actually are. Finally, hire Steve D'Antonio to do an inspection in addition to your survey. He's expensive (compared to a great surveyor) but it will pay for itself.

 

[Gdavid]

I believe you are going about this in the right way. I have limited direct experience of the 3208 TA, but the guidance you are receiving aligns with everything I know about them. I would try to get someone from T&S Marine to come survey they engines. They specialized in 3208's for years supporting the charter and workboat fleet of the Chesapeake bay. The engines are not as prevalent as they once were in work boats, but there are still plenty of knowledge and parts around. In addition to the typical issues that you can assess during a survey, I have heard multiple account of these engines blowing head gaskets later in TA applications, in spite of not being run hard, it sounds like more of an issue of material age, coolant age or something to that effect.

Like any engine, I would want to have a tentative gameplan for how I would address a major breakdown prior to embarking on the trip, establish a budget for the worst-case scenario of being laid up somewhere along your route and ensure you have a plan to pay for it. This really could go for any engine and boat but you wise to consider it ahead of time, just like the research you are doing now.

 

[Nordlund Xpress]

You might also consider negotiating price down for 50% of the rebuild cost based on how likely it may be needed sooner than later and the fact that you will receive the benefit of the zero'd engines.

 

[ranger58sb]

Basically I'm comfortable with the condition of most everything and most stuff is essentially turn-key right now but what I am nervous about are the motors. CAT 3208TAs nearing 6,000 hours.

Looks like Burr has a '95 with 3208TAs, 435-hp version, "only" 4450 hours...

-Chris

 

[l00smarble]

Looks like Burr has a '95 with 3208TAs, 435-hp version, "only" 4450 hours...

-Chris

Under contract.

 

[socalrider]

You might also consider negotiating price down for 50% of the rebuild cost based on how likely it may be needed sooner than later and the fact that you will receive the benefit of the zero'd engines.

I like this approach. Issue may be that a full rebuild might be *really* expensive. But at a minimum the OP should know that number going into the deal.

 

[l00smarble]

Spoke to a CAT guy who I trust. He was surprised to even hear about a Fleming with 3208TAs closing in on 6,000 hours. He basically said I was thinking about it correctly and that no matter how good the maintenance, how gently it was run, how good the oil results or survey results are....it is at the end of any reasonably expected service life and any purchase would need to factor in the need to rebuild or repower.

His general take on it was why would you rebuild when you can repower for not that much more money. Rebuild requires the motors to come out and be taken all the way down to bare block to be bored etc. Then CAT has discontinued support for this motor so parts are hard to get and expensive. Some aftermarket options but still expensive and when you are done you have a "new" motor that was engineered 50+ years ago in the early 70s. He suggested that the boat could be repowered for about 25% more cost with CAT C7.1 with more horsepower, shockingly lower fuel consumption, lighter, quieter, smoother, cleaner, etc.

In very loose terms it could be $100K to rebuild and maybe for $125K the boat could be repowered with C7.1s.

Repower with modern motors would certainly add value (resale) to the vessel. He suggested that in a nice Fleming it could be nearly dollar-for-dollar but I wouldn't trust that.

And the 3208s could maybe be sold to a waterman to rebuild for his work boat.

 

[tiltrider1]

Spoke to a CAT guy who I trust. He was surprised to even hear about a Fleming with 3208TAs closing in on 6,000 hours. He basically said I was thinking about it correctly and that no matter how good the maintenance, how gently it was run, how good the oil results or survey results are....it is at the end of any reasonably expected service life and any purchase would need to factor in the need to rebuild or repower.

His general take on it was why would you rebuild when you can repower for not that much more money. Rebuild requires the motors to come out and be taken all the way down to bare block to be bored etc. Then CAT has discontinued support for this motor so parts are hard to get and expensive. Some aftermarket options but still expensive and when you are done you have a "new" motor that was engineered 50+ years ago in the early 70s. He suggested that the boat could be repowered for about 25% more cost with CAT C7.1 with more horsepower, shockingly lower fuel consumption, lighter, quieter, smoother, cleaner, etc.

Based on my experience with 3208’s and generators, I think calling Cat 3208’s done at 6,000 hours is premature. I will agree, buying a boat with 6,000 hours is definitely risking being involved with an engine reman or repower but it’s low risk that escalates with every additional 1000 hours.

Repowering a Fleming with C7’s instead of 3208’s does have some merit. I can easily see how the additional money spent could be recouped. My only problem is that I have never seen a repower go as smoothly as everyone thinks.

Still, I would not get involved with a 6000 hour boat unless I had the financial wherewithal to repower should my luck run out.

 

[Diep]

Still, I would not get involved with a 6000 hour boat unless I had the financial wherewithal to repower should my luck run out.

I think you're asking the right questions and getting some good info but this captures the thought rolling around in my head.

If you're going to play with old boats you really amplify the risk if you stretch too hard financially. You don't want to be in a situation where the boat needs 6 figures worth of work and you just can't pull it together. You end up with a boat you can't afford to fix and that you can't sell either.

On an older boat I feel like you either need to be able to walk away from it or be able to spend what needs to maintain the value. Doesn't mean it wouldn't leave a mark, but you don't want to be ruined either. The motors aren't the only item that could be a 5 or 6 figure oh crap.

The good news is, if you can pull it off with a decent reserve or contingency plan, you might get an incredible boat, spend years cruising it with modest maintenance and not come out that bad on the resale.

I haven't tried to find the listing but take your knowledge/research, combine with the current market conditions and take a shot at it...

 

[l00smarble]

Based on my experience with 3208’s and generators, I think calling Cat 3208’s done at 6,000 hours is premature. I will agree, buying a boat with 6,000 hours is definitely risking being involved with an engine reman or repower but it’s low risk that escalates with every additional 1000 hours.

Repowering a Fleming with C7’s instead of 3208’s does have some merit. I can easily see how the additional money spent could be recouped. My only problem is that I have never seen a repower go as smoothly as everyone thinks.

Still, I would not get involved with a 6000 hour boat unless I had the financial wherewithal to repower should my luck run out.

3208NA in a generator is quite different than a turbo and seawater aftercooled 3208 I would think. They may not be "done" but as you said you can't get involved here unless you are prepared for them to be "done" when they decide they are done.

The problem is we want to do a Loop and this magnifies the risk in my opinion. If I am on home turf here in Annapolis area I could coordinate the repower. If a motor decides to give up in some rural canal town in Canada or in middle America it would be a shitshow to try to get a major repower projecdt dealt with. When I start a loop I want to be able to count on the motors for 1,000 hours. So it would be up front preemptive repower or move on to the next boat I think.

 

[Crux]

If you buy it, and one engine fails somewhere on the loop....pull that prop and conservatively run the other engine and come back to your home turf.
You might want to invest in a correctly sized prop puller to carry....handy to have anyway...
.many locations will have divers....but not necessarily correct puller

 

[rslifkin]

I wouldn't automatically be scared of the 6000 hours, but I'd want a thorough engine survey. Compression test, probably a leakdown test, give them a good sea trial and confirm how they start cold, how they run, oil pressure at hot idle, etc.

A good check-out should be able to determine if the engines are getting tired or if they check out healthy and are likely to have a good bit of life remaining.

 

[tiltrider1]

3208NA in a generator is quite different than a turbo and seawater aftercooled 3208 I would think. They may not be "done" but as you said you can't get involved here unless you are prepared for them to be "done" when they decide they are done.

The problem is we want to do a Loop and this magnifies the risk in my opinion. If I am on home turf here in Annapolis area I could coordinate the repower. If a motor decides to give up in some rural canal town in Canada or in middle America it would be a shitshow to try to get a major repower projecdt dealt with. When I start a loop I want to be able to count on the motors for 1,000 hours. So it would be up front preemptive repower or move on to the next boat I think.

I agree with your thinking. If your cruising ground is only a 300 mile radius then it’s easy to limp home and get repairs dealt with. If you are planning to cruise 1000 miles from home and in foreign countries then I would not want the risk of higher time engines.

 

[Mambo42]

The way I read the post of OP is that it all comes down to a max budget and therefore money.
Whether or not the engines need an overhaul is something that can be determined by a good mechanic or surveyor.
The problem is that it costs a lot of money and if you still think the boat is worth the current price, knowing the you need an engine overhaul or replacement, then this is the boat for you. Perhaps it won't be necessary, but perhaps it will be necessary and at least you have calculated that in already.
However, if that engine rebuild or replacement puts it over the max total budget......then perhaps this boat is not for you.

A key sentence in the post of OP, for me, was this one:

I do love Flemings but for us to get into one it would have to be an older one and it would be a stretch and we would not be the kind of buyers who can then turn around and spend another $200K gettng the boat up to speed.

And then there is the other part, which is that if you don't need an engine overhaul the engines will be so much closer to an overhaul when you want to sell the boat, which means the new buyer might not be willing the price OP is asking for the boat (assuming the rest of the boat will remain in pristine condition) and thus he will have to take a financial hit that way. However, reading the sentence of OP that would sort of be possible to do.

So the main question is now: is this boat priced correctly and is the upcoming engine overhaul already taken into account or not at all ?
If it would be Ford Lehman's the 6000 hours means the engines have another 20.000 to go. But I spoke with Burr a few years ago about this same model engines and they told me I would be very close to an overhaul. Of course there are exceptions, there always are exceptions, but in the end those engines will need to be replaced or overhauled at one point.

There were some very good suggestions here, such as having the current owner pay for 1 of those overhauls. And indeed I would check if banks are willling to offer financing on boats older than 30 years. If they refuse your problem will just have gotten bigger.

A year or so ago there was a renovated Fleming on offer in the Netherlands for a low price, however that one had been rebuilt without sticking to the proper procedures and the vessel had lost its CE rating. The boat would still be able to go out to sea, no doubt about it, but the insurance would simply not accept it and thereby the boat became unsellable. It was a beautiful boat, rebuilt was done very well, but I knew I would not be able to find a buyer for this boat once I would have to say goodbye to that boat. So I walked away from it. Still think about it every now and then, but it was the right decision.

In the end it comes down to a financial matter and only OP can answer that question.

 

[Comodave]

While I absolutely love Flemings, they are my dream boat, I would not touch one with high horsepower 3208s with those hours. Unless I was ready and financially able to immediately repower them with some Cummins. There is absolutely no way to figure out how much longer those engines will go, so unless I had about $150+K sitting around waiting on the repower I would pass. Who knows what a repower will cost? You can guess but inevitably there will be things that need replacing that were unknown until the engine work starts. And once you start you are committed and have to spend whatever it takes to finish or else you will kill the resale value with a repower half complete. Sorry to be a downer but you have to look at it logically. Even the best survey can/will miss things. So you better have a big open pocketbook if you want this one.

 

[Frosty]

Somewhat off topic, but just to step back to the big picture:

I love the Fleming 55 (what a dream boat!), but I'm not sure I'd choose one specifically for a Great Loop trip. I mean, it's 60' LOA and draws 5' (or maybe a little more in real life?). That alone means you'd have to sign a waiver for the Trent Severn Canal.

Not that it can't be done in a boat of that size - I'm sure it can and has, many times. But to my mind, it might be more enjoyable with a slightly smaller boat that draws, say 4'? More marina availability, less pucker factor on the TS and numerous anchorages and routes. Then too, for the same -- or likely less -- money, said boat could have engine(s) you don't have to worry about right off the bat. Or that you could have a nest egg to fix, at least (from the money you saved).

Fleming 55.... I can sure see the temptation though. I guess if it were me I'd just rather go with something that has less mental pressure, shorter LOA, and less draft for a specifically chosen Great Loop boat.

 

[l00smarble]

Thank you to all. All good points.

It would be an all cash deal so no banks involved.

I have to do some research to see how much of this issue is baked into the asking price. I guess not much since the motors currently run well and have good oil analysis and maintenance records.

Agree if I were cruising regionally it may be a different story.


Also agree that if I add 1500 hours and then try to resell the next buyer is going to be even more finicky. Resale ease/value is one of the things that makes me more comfortable stretching budget to get into a Fleming. Without rebuild/repower that end of ownership benefit may be lost.

 

[l00smarble]

Somewhat off topic, but just to step back to the big picture:

I love the Fleming 55 (what a dream boat!), but I'm not sure I'd choose one specifically for a Great Loop trip. I mean, it's 60' LOA and draws 5' (or maybe a little more in real life?). That alone means you'd have to sign a waiver for the Trent Severn Canal.

Not that it can't be done in a boat of that size - I'm sure it can and has, many times. But to my mind, it might be more enjoyable with a slightly smaller boat that draws, say 4'? More marina availability, less pucker factor on the TS and numerous anchorages and routes. Then too, for the same -- or likely less -- money, said boat could have engine(s) you don't have to worry about right off the bat. Or that you could have a nest egg to fix, at least (from the money you saved).

Fleming 55.... I can sure see the temptation though. I guess if it were me I'd just rather go with something that has less mental pressure, shorter LOA, and less draft for a specifically chosen Great Loop boat.

Oh believe me these considerations are going around and around the kitchen table every night. You are correct on every point and I am not blind to those facts.

We keep trying to remember the adage that you should only buy the biggest boat that you need.

At this point I'm shopping and the Fleming is on one far end of the scale of things that we're considering. At the other end of the scale is a Selene Archer 40 which could be a good Loop boat. It ticks a lot of boxes for us but I don't prefer boats that have only side door access and the way the doors work on that particular model is clunky and cumbersome and it's something you have to use every time you go in or out of the boat. I would love a pilot house but of course a smaller boat like that does not have one.

Have also looked at a Grand Banks Europa. The one I found locally is too new and too expensive for us but if I find one in the right budget range and without pod drives this could be an option.

Have considered other things as well and still looking....

 

[ranger58sb]

Under contract.

Ah.

Spoke to a CAT guy who I trust. He was surprised to even hear about a Fleming with 3208TAs closing in on 6,000 hours. He basically said I was thinking about it correctly and that no matter how good the maintenance, how gently it was run, how good the oil results or survey results are....it is at the end of any reasonably expected service life and any purchase would need to factor in the need to rebuild or repower.

His general take on it was why would you rebuild when you can repower for not that much more money. Rebuild requires the motors to come out and be taken all the way down to bare block to be bored etc. Then CAT has discontinued support for this motor so parts are hard to get and expensive. Some aftermarket options but still expensive and when you are done you have a "new" motor that was engineered 50+ years ago in the early 70s. He suggested that the boat could be repowered for about 25% more cost with CAT C7.1 with more horsepower, shockingly lower fuel consumption, lighter, quieter, smoother, cleaner, etc.

In very loose terms it could be $100K to rebuild and maybe for $125K the boat could be repowered with C7.1s.

Repower with modern motors would certainly add value (resale) to the vessel. He suggested that in a nice Fleming it could be nearly dollar-for-dollar but I wouldn't trust that.

And the 3208s could maybe be sold to a waterman to rebuild for his work boat.

I'm surprised at his "end of life" pronouncement at "only" 6000 hours, but the rest of the analysis -- including selling off the 3208s -- sounds about right. I've read re-man Cummins 6CTAs are a pretty decent bargain, so you might compare those to new C7.1s. (But might then also need different gears, etc...)

Have to admit, as much as we like the look of Flemings... especially the 65s and 58s... even the 30 year old 55s are still way out of our league... by a couple hundred thou... when it comes to boat shopping. We were at Anchor YB before our current boat, so we got to ogle all the Burr boats -- including those in the leased slips at Anchor and during haul-outs and surveys and so forth -- all the time.

-Chris

 

[l00smarble]

I'm surprised at his "end of life" pronouncement at "only" 6000 hours

Maybe I wasn't clear on what he said. He didn't say they're done and need immediate attention. He just said that they are toward the end of any expected service life. Even caterpillar says they're good for 30,000 gallons and my math says that 10 knots average Cruise that is 6,000 hours.

Nobody is saying that they're immediate trash but I wouldn't feel comfortable thinking I could go another thousand or two thousand hours without a plan.

 

[Crux]

Here are real life overhaul costs 3208 in a Tolly

 

[Ithaka7]

If you want to cruise the boat (which is what you seem to want to do), you need to repower, for better reliability, better fuel consumption and less smoke at start up. If you want a coastal, day trip out of harbor experience, you can stay put as it is. In my opinion, the value of these boats, >30 years, is not much greater than the value of the engines, so you can negotiate further.

I believe repowering with 6CTAs, even with the required modifications/gearbox changes will be your best option and should be doable for less than $100k. The reman 6CTAs are called that to avoid emissions compliance. Otherwise, they are just as good as new and very reliable engines.

 

[GMS]

Having recently purchased a full displacement trawler (56 DeFever) with close to 6000 hrs. on the engines, I can tell you if you are asking these questions this probably isn't the right boat for you. I say this because you will question your decision every time a bit of oil leaks or something doesn't feel right about the way the boat is performing.

We were OK with the engine hours for all the reasons you cite (meticulous single owner boat with great maintenance records and a full displacement boat with low HP engines, etc...). Additionally, we went into the purchase with the mindset (and financial ability) to either repower the boat or rebuild the Perkins M225s (easily rebuildable in place). I believe it is very likely that we will ultimately repower the boat with a pair of John Deeres or Luggers, as they would increase the resale value of the boat and we would benefit for a much more modern power plant.

I am sure the Fleming is well worth repowering, as they hold their value about as well as anything on the market. However, that fact is completely irrelevant if you are not able or interested in conducting the repower.

Think very carefully about how you will "feel" when you find a bit of oil in the bilge you weren't expecting or some other anomaly - as those things are far more likely to occur with a older, high engine hour boat. If that is going to bother you, this might not be the right boat for you.

On the other hand, there is the offsetting "feeling" of owning an amazing vessel like a Fleming... I have to admit, I love how often we get compliments at the dock on our DeFever (and we love the relatively unique layout of the vessel).

Be honest with yourself about how you will deal with ownership of a boat with high operating hours (it has had me question.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[Nick14]

I’m not at all any kind of expert on CAT 3208 engines and have never owned one. Some years back, a friend had some kind of express cruiser with 3208TA engines, I don’t recall if they were 375 or 435 hp. He ran the boat differently from a trawler, probably at 80-90% throttle most of the time. He got less than 1,000 hours out of the engines. They each failed within about 100 hours of each other. He was shocked because he believed ‘diesels last forever.’

I remember him commenting his fuel burn was north of 20-25 gph per engine, so the resulting service life not unexpected. The lesson might be, it’s hard to assume how engines were run and what the total lifetime fuel consumption has been. Of course maintenance plays a big role in lifespan (engines and people ).

You might find some of David Pascoe’s writings on diesel engines to be interesting -

Marine Engines: Online Articles on Boats and Yachts by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor

Online articles on marine engines by David Pascoe, marine surveyor: gas or diesel, power option, engine performance, drive system alignment, exhaust system, cooling system

www.yachtsurvey.com

Power and consumption curves for the engines -

CAT 3208 Mrine Engine Specification | PDF | Pump | Engine Technology

This document provides specifications for a Caterpillar 3208 marine engine. It is a V-8, four-stroke cycle diesel engine that produces between 210-435 horsepower at 2800 RPM. The bore is 114.3 mm and the stroke is 127 mm, giving it a displacement of 10.4 liters. Accessories include a mechanical...

www.scribd.com

 

[Dougcole]

Can you adjust your offer down enough to cover most of the rebuild/repower? Or is that already factored into the asking price?