The Cruising attitude is more important than the boat you choose

[Jklotz]

Thats TOO funny.

A Nordhavn is a hull speed boat, with a engine to match the requirements of hull speed operation.
The Bayliners are planing hull boats with sufficient horespower to push the boat up on plane.

In a really serious current having that reserve horsepower is super handy.

Dent Rapids, Seymour Narrows, and similar places are where the Bayliners and other "over powered" boats shine.

In a 7 knot head current the displacement boat is dangerous. In the same current the planing hull boat blazes right through.

Turn around and go the other way and the displacement boat is still a bit scary, as the water rushing past the rudder in the incorrect direction needs to be overcome.

Throw 600+ horsepower at the problem and you're golden.

The whole thought process that you "need" a certain boat to go cruising is what we need to overcome.

Reminds me of Elliot Cut, where the ICW enters the Charleston Harbour from the south. Just wide enough for 1 boat, connects 2 larger bodies of water and the current just absolutely rips through there! I hit it around max flood, had to run up to 22oo rpm, all I've got, and barely had any steering at all. That was scary! Fortunately, it's not very long.

 

[guy with a boat]

I disagree. The planing boat is at a big advantage going against the current in terms of time to get through it (so particularly if the sea state is sub-optimal due to the current you won't be in it nearly as long). The displacement hull will get through it fine though provided the adverse current is less than their top speed, although they might only be making 2 kts over ground (if they can do 9 kts through the water against 7 kts of current as an example).

Going against the current it doesn't matter. The water won't be flowing past the boat, the boat is moving with it. So there's no rudder authority problem provided the boat maintains a normal cruising speed through the water (vs trying to slow down because their ground speed seems too fast). Turning radius will be worse going with the current, but that applies to any boat regardless of speed (it's just more noticeable when the current is doubling your speed over ground).

The big rapids/narrows in BC should only be run at (or near) slack unless you are in a small planing boat and experienced operator. They (Dent Rapids, Seymour Narrows, etc) are a filter (and should be) for operator experience and confidence, meaning casual boats often stay south of them to avoid having to manage safe transit. Boat make and hull type matter very little, except that a planing hull and some horsepower can slightly expand the range of current flow rates that are safely navigable.

The issue isn't the speed of the water, it is the intense turbulence that is generated at high flow rates. None of it is going the same speed and the surface is moving at a different speed and direction than just sub-surface so it pushes your boat around in sometimes uncontrollable ways. Adding to the fun, rudders aren't very effective in whitewater so rudder authority can radically diminish at just the wrong times.

Local commercial fish boats (8kt boats with a million hours on them) run the narrows at all kinds of crazy times because they know the waters and how to get through in one piece. For most of us mere mortals, transiting near slack will avoid the scary moments and you will have to tell your guests when they are in the "rapids" because it is so calm for those 15 minutes. Every so often someone gets overconfident and the rapids eat them for lunch.

 

[boomerang]

Reminds me of Elliot Cut, where the ICW enters the Charleston Harbour from the south. Just wide enough for 1 boat

Elliot Cut is definitely not my favorite part of the AICW but I'd say it's a little wider than being only able to accommodate 1 boat, though when in a slow boat, it sure is a little nicer when there are no other boats heading in the opposite direction!

 

[Moonfish]

My friend Bob Bitchin has always said cruising is not about the boat. It's about deciding to go. We did these "Attitudes" at the end of every show, and this one, which is relevant to this thread, was always one of my favs:

 

[kthoennes]

This discussion about fear or apprehension reminds me - I've always wondered if the dingy with a 4hp Yamaha could tow the mothership to safety if I had a catastrophic failure of both engines. One or two knots would be fine. Never actually tried it though. I better test it this weekend. Kind of like this maybe.

 

[rslifkin]

This discussion about fear or apprehension reminds me - I've always wondered if the dingy with a 4hp Yamaha could tow the mothership to safety if I had a catastrophic failure of both engines. One or two knots would be fine. Never actually tried it though. I better test it this weekend. Kind of like this maybe.

It will. We have a 6hp on the dinghy. Biggest thing I've moved with it was an 11k lb sailboat. It was only a short move so I didn't try for top speed, but 3 kts was achievable at less than full throttle. I wouldn't expect more than about 2 kts moving our boat as it's bigger and much heavier. Given anything other than relatively calm conditions (both wind and sea state) I think you'd need a more powerful dinghy.

IIRC there is a KK Manatee out there with a tow rig for their dinghy that allows them to tow it rigidly behind them or use it to push the mother ship.

 

[Frosty]

Agree. I've seen a dockmate come back over 15 miles with a small hard dinghy and 2hp Honda tied to the hip of his 40-ish foot sailboat. Granted it wasn't rough weather (presumably you would try to find someplace to anchor if that was the case and then tow back after that).

 

[PierreR]

When I was 13years old I built a 6' boat in shop class I powered with a 3 hp cast iron Briggs and Stratton inboard. I towed a 35' sailboat a half mile to the marina with it. I remember that boat well. She had an open spark plug that would nail me good if spray hit me and the plug at the same time.

 

[Delta Riverat]

It helps if the admiral is as adventurous as the captain. Mine is like "go out into the ocean?" and I'm like "I want to go to Monterey by boat!"

The admiral still needs to get her boater card to avoid the $100 fine if found boating w/o a license.

But she is always worried about what to do if I go down...

Yeah, she worries too much, has too much fear. I dunno.

Me, I've been fixing and improving even since we bought her. I'm getting ready. But I don't know if I'm going anywhere...

Sad

 

[kthoennes]

That spark plug anecdote is hilarious. This is a good thread. Reminds me of the first car my parents ever let me drive - mini Datsun pick up truck, the yard truck at my dad's construction company. The wheels were so out of balance and the cab was so loose that if I went faster than 50 mph, the passenger door would pop open.

 

[Datenight]

…if I went faster than 50 mph, the passenger door would pop open.

Are we not of the age where we or a friend had an old beater that a door would open when turning a corner?

Rob

 

[Jklotz]

When I was 13years old I built a 6' boat in shop class I powered with a 3 hp cast iron Briggs and Stratton inboard. I towed a 35' sailboat a half mile to the marina with it. I remember that boat well. She had an open spark plug that would nail me good if spray hit me and the plug at the same time.

Ha! I had a go cart with one of those briggs and stratton engines. I accidentally touched the exposed spark plug once. That hurt!

 

[Mambo42]

I agree that it takes a mindset to simply take the decision and go for it. However, good preparation, a solid boat, safety oriented mind and knowledge of the sea and boat handling are just as important. It is nice to say to yourself: I am going to do this, but when you and the boat are totally unprepared and unqualified it is a nightmare waiting to happen.

 

[PierreR]

I agree that it takes a mindset to simply take the decision and go for it. However, good preparation, a solid boat, safety oriented mind and knowledge of the sea and boat handling are just as important. It is nice to say to yourself: I am going to do this, but when you and the boat are totally unprepared and unqualified it is a nightmare waiting to happen.

I read your post and reacted to it like I would to an over protective parent. I read it again and I can't say you are wrong about anything you said. If you are one the fence all the prep you have listed will increase your chances of going and having better success.
As Bob Bitchen said: Intent is great but setting a date for the goal and telling other people you did greatly increases your chances of untying the lines and shoving off. Even more so than doing all the prep that you list.

I have had guests back out of joining us after stupidly watching Captain Ron as their preparation for joining us. By the same token, I think about my parents decision to take a crack at the loop in my 26' trawler. We were out salmon fishing with it off Frankfort Mi in beautiful late 2006 August weather. They talked about wishing they have made a decision to do it years ago but did not know about it. Long story short I said I could get the boat ready but the end of September and launch them in Kentucky Lake as a start and be with them for the first week or so. My father was 80 and my mother was 75. They actually had little boating experience except runabouts, rafts and canoes. I told them to use the 6 weeks it would take me to educate themselves as much as possible. I worked my but off on the boat and it was ready. They did no prep but were set to go.
We launched in Kentucky Lake and I was with them for the first week down to Iuka MS. The did not really pay much attention to what I was saying but assured me that they would be fine. That was October 1 and they gave up due to health and weather issues April 10, in Wilmington NC. In between was nothing short of the Keystone Cops every day. For one thing, my parents fought for sport. Playing cards with them was comical. They were very captivating individuals who gather crowds at every marina they stopped at. They did really stupid things. They could not figure out how to bring up the salt water charts on the chart plotter so, they used a Rand McNally to go from north of Mobile Bay to Orange Beach by way of Fairhope one year after Katrina. They got lucky but they also had and uncanny way of avoiding disasters. I wrote extensively about their trip back on the old Trawlers List at the time they were doing their trip.
My father died of emphysema at 90 after smoking for 75 years and my mother is 96 and still fondly remembers the trip. She still drives and has her concealed carry permit.
I certainly side with you on recommending the prep but it is not necessary to make the decision and shove off. Just look at the Stobb's in Honey Let's Get a Boat.
It really all boils down to: Are You Made of the Right Stuff, not necessarily all the prep work.

 

[psneeld]

Prep is a weird word for anyone to clearly define if it isn't used for a specific cruise.

Day trip? Loop? Ocean crossing?

As many have said. One way to do the Loop is making it not much more than a bunch of day sails strung together. Even with zero experience.... if every day you make a good decision here and there, even if based only on chance/luck, your chances of having a fun, nearly problem free trip isn't out of the question. A trans Atlantic while not as likely to survive based only on luck, a big number of crossings have succeeded when most of us would still consider them luck over smarts.

As many people say though.... you really make your own luck (and on soooooo many levels). So successful cruising is really a collision of many factors and I have no idea of what combination of them all determines between success and disaster. I have 2 careers of assisting boaters/cruisers and spent much of my life living aboard amongst serious cruisers and cruising tens of thousands of miles myself. All that still doesn't help pinpointing the equation to what really can start and help the cruising life.

Too many seem to want to point to a specific, or a couple examples of success or failure and think that's the answer.

 

[Wtrguy]

As many people say though.... you really make your own luck (and on soooooo many levels).

My grandad used to say "luck is where preparation and opportunity come together." Love that quote.

I've know a few people over the years that have jumped into the boating life only to realize it's not the rainbows and unicorns they thought it would be. Two years later the boat is for sale. There's a couple that are friends of my folks that bought a 50ish Beneteau and sailed to Hawaii, only to sell the boat and fly home.

My question is, how many people jump into this lifestyle without doing any homework, only to jump right back out after a couple of years?

 

[PierreR]

My question is, how many people jump into this lifestyle without doing any homework, only to jump right back out after a couple of years?

There by the grace of God go I. I have paid dearly for my reality education of life. Who hasn't? Who here has ignored sound advice and followed their gut feel? My path in life has been more like dribbling a soccer ball.

Good sound advice like: " Son, that football full of hornets might have sweets inside of it but it is NOT a piñata. Especially not bare footed"

 

[Frosty]

My grandad used to say "luck is where preparation and opportunity come together." Love that quote.

That is a good one.

My question is, how many people jump into this lifestyle without doing any homework, only to jump right back out after a couple of years?

This isn't really what you were asking, but I've noticed a new trend now where people stop boating after a year or two, but it's not so much backing out as it is the intention all along.

Seemed like when I was younger, you needed to ease into "serious" boating. I think partly because it was more difficult (no chartplotters, AIS, cell phones, Google maps, Instacart, satellite weather at your fingertips, anchor alarms, GPS, remote-controleld thrusters, etc. etc.).

Also, if you were going any distance in past times, you pretty much had no communications with anyone from "back home." Letters was about it. Maybe a short phone call from a pay phone (if you were in the US it was a lot easier). Perhaps with that in mind, it seemed like it tended to be something you did for the love of .... boating. Because you had to sacrifice some things, it took a while to learn, you had to save up if you were younger (no remote working via Starlink), and you had to kind of say good-bye to everyone for the duration.

Anyway, where was I. Oh yeah, I notice a trend now which is that a (typically but not always) younger couple will decide to do X thing with a boat (often the Great Loop) and use their resources to buy a nice boat, load it up (or have it loaded up) with the now-available things, and set out. They aren't so much boat lovers as they are goal-oriented and they want this particular experience. There's no intention of keeping the boat. No desire to learn nautical lore or terms. They will move on to another cool and interesting goal next (and probably accomplish that one, too).

They usually seem pretty capable and they make their goal. They may call the cockpit the back porch and use "right" and "left." Their burgee may be flying from the stern. But they are going mountain climbing in the Himalayas next, so no need.

I never really noticed that type of "goal" boating back in the day (say pre-2010 or so).

Ha ha, when you get old enough to notice long-term trends

 

[Jklotz]

That is a good one.

This isn't really what you were asking, but I've noticed a new trend now where people stop boating after a year or two, but it's not so much backing out as it is the intention all along.

I think a lot of folks got into boating during covid, then reality set in.

 

[Don L]

Most boat owner barely use their boats!!!!

 

[Wtrguy]

I think a lot of folks got into boating during covid, then reality set in.

That actually makes more sense than any hypothesis I've formed yet. Already isolated so what's the difference whether on a boat or on land?

Most boat owner barely use their boats!!!!

This I don't get! As the trawler lifestyle is cost prohibitive to so many, why would a person spend so much capital for a lifestyle they don't embrace or enjoy? Perhaps there's more disposable income in this economy than some would have us believe?

 

[PierreR]

Most boat owner barely use their boats!!!!

I don't know if the area I am in is uniquely different in usage or not. There are many boats in our area that get high usage but never leave the dock except back and forth to winter storage. I know of one owner who has owned his boat for 35 years and has never operated it himself. He's on it nearly every weekend and the boat looks like it recently came off the showroom floor. Probably less than 100 hours in 35 years. 38 Carver. polishes it to a high shine himself in heated indoor storage every winter.

 

[psneeld]

The best way to not mistakes when boating is start at least before 10 years old.

Graduate to rowboats, then small sailboats and skiffs, then to 20 foot something sail and skiffs, then up to 30 foot sailboats and skiffs, then work decades in commercial boating operations, then you are almost ready (are if a good student) for cruising vessels in the 40-60 foot range. So after 4 decades of serious boating.... that's about time you should be able to operate and cruise pretty much anything that is usually discussed here.

Can you shortcut this path? Sure, you better dedicate your life to it for quite a few years worth of study or roll the dice and decide luck is your best friend... or at least a big part of it.

 

[psneeld]

That actually makes more sense than any hypothesis I've formed yet. Already isolated so what's the difference whether on a boat or on land?

This I don't get! As the trawler lifestyle is cost prohibitive to so many, why would a person spend so much capital for a lifestyle they don't embrace or enjoy? Perhaps there's more disposable income in this economy than some would have us believe?

They don't use the boat because of the "peter principle" or other factors in life that keep them happy and busy doing other things. My best friend has the latter disease. For some, it's the cheapest way to get waterfront property, actual boaing is secondary or they are afraid to get underway for all kinds of excuses.

As for the "Peter Principle", if you never heard of it..... it is the result of graduating/promoted to a level of something you just are incapeable of doing well because of a lack of real experience or competence.

 

[PierreR]

The best way to not mistakes when boating is start at least before 10 years old.

Can you shortcut this path? Sure, you better dedicate your life to it for quite a few years worth of study or roll the dice and decide luck is your best friend... or at least a big part of it.

Oh I started before age 10. Before age 10 I could take apart most anything, fix it and put it back together. My father had a business of doing just that. He would take in a job. Close the doors and let me do it and bill it out.
I built several boats before the age of 18, was stationed at Air Force 1 in the military and drove a 4 wheel drive Mustang I built in engineering school at Michigan Tech. I have a dual degree Metallurgical and Chemical engineering in 4 years plus I am a master at all of the building and fabrication trades all before the age of 30. That said, I could have everyone here rolling in laughter for hours just describing the trials and tribulations and contraption disasters that I experienced along the path to where I am at today. I would love to have the money I spent on whims and disasters in my bank account right now. There is no teacher like bad judgement to gain experience.
My father was a hard nosed SOB that had only seen the ravages of poverty and war up to the age of 25. He vowed his children would never be dependent on anyone else. NoTV, no group sports, no nonsensical playing but a garage full on anything you wanted to do and invent and the freedom to do it. In his words, "when you are faced in the future with societal collapse gold can be stolen or confiscated. With your knowledge, you will actually be the gold that is protected. You will survive and rebuild society." He is gone and that war has not materialized under my feet yet but I don't hoard gold.

 

[psneeld]

???????

 

[Gdavid]

This discussion about fear or apprehension reminds me - I've always wondered if the dingy with a 4hp Yamaha could tow the mothership to safety if I had a catastrophic failure of both engines. One or two knots would be fine. Never actually tried it though. I better test it this weekend. Kind of like this maybe.

I limped into port in the spring of 2024 with my 5 hp 2 stroke Nissan pushing my 34' Mainship against a pretty decent breeze (10 knots, gusts to 15) and across an ebbing current. I was only about 1 mile from the closest port, I could get up to about 2 knots between gusts. It was an offshore breeze so there was only a 6" chop, but the couple wakes I encountered brought me to a stop. I clamped the outboard onto the horizonal teak swim platform, tilted the outboard so it was roughly vertical and used a board to brace the outboard leg into position. My boat's hull is pretty shallow at the stern so the outboard prop was below the transom.

I thought the starter was bad, turned out to be a loose negative battery terminal connection, oops.

 

[Don L]

Most boat owner barely use their boats!!!!

Guess I should have said

Most boat owners barely use their boats TO GO BOATING!

I base this on traveling from Maine to Key West, up the Florida west coat to MS.

I have been in mooring field where I didn't see anyone on boats the whole season. Mooring fields where the owners were liveaboards and/or "cruisers" that never went anywhere. In live aboard marinas where people haven't left the slip in years, but hey they are boaters. To a marina here in Jacksonville I stayed at for 5 years during hurricane season and never learned any boat owners name because never saw them.

Guess that is why I see 1980s boats for sale that only have 1000-2000 engine hours

This "just do it" to start cruising is the key. But by far most boaters like the idea of owning a boat more than they like boating

 

[ABfish]

The only way to guarantee mistake-free boating is to never leave your slip. Some folks just never get comfortable with dinging or scratching something that costs as much as a house.

My father used to buy a new work truck and take it down a narrow farm road a few days later. Scratches were inevitable. His philosophy: Might as well get it over with.

 

[Don L]

The only way to guarantee mistake-free boating is to never leave your slip.

I disagree. Once you get a boat mistakes become given no matter what