Sundowner Q

[della li]

Hi All

Recently purchased a Sundowner 30 (1986) with Yanmar diesel (4PHM--TE). Wondering why builders/designers didn't put salon and pilot house on one level and maybe move engine to stern? Any tips on maintenance appreciated--for one, size the zinc nuts on the fresh water tank)! Also wondering if the Yanmars tend to develop oil leaks like the Perkins do. I notice a bit of oil under the pan, though doesn't seem to have increased after a 4 hr run, so maybe from a previous change...

These are hand-laid glass hulls correct? Or is there a wooden core? any idea how thick the hull is?

Also, this boat has been in fresh water, but now getting salt bath. Wondering where is best place to install a galvanic islolator (I'm assuming maybe behind the fuse panel if room)? The boat went in yesterday (3/30) but I won't be able to install for another couple weeks--do you think that would be a prob? It is a small marina with a couple folks working on boats, but only a couple liveaboard, so I don't think a lot of elec. activity.

 

[O C Diver]

Zinc nuts on the freshwater tank? What's your tank made out of? Never heard of zincs on a freshwater tank, especially if isolated by non conducting tubing.

While I would get a galvanic isolator, if the hull is properly zinced (rudder and propeller shafts and a bonding zinc), it's something you can do when you get home. Behind the breaker panel is a good location.

Ted

 

[della li]

Zinc nuts on the freshwater tank? What's your tank made out of? Never heard of zincs on a freshwater tank, especially if isolated by non conducting tubing.

While I would get a galvanic isolator, if the hull is properly zinced (rudder and propeller shafts and a bonding zinc), it's something you can do when you get home. Behind the breaker panel is a good location.

Ted

Thx! I'm thinking the zincs must somehow access the internal raw water tubes?
Also the stop switch on the console not working? any sugg? there is a manual level on the engine itself, but not the most convenient option.

Fresh water tank is cast iron, with internal raw water tubes for cooling the fresh that circulates around the outside of the tube system

 

[della li]

Zinc nuts on the freshwater tank? What's your tank made out of? Never heard of zincs on a freshwater tank, especially if isolated by non conducting tubing.

While I would get a galvanic isolator, if the hull is properly zinced (rudder and propeller shafts and a bonding zinc), it's something you can do when you get home. Behind the breaker panel is a good location.

Ted

Ted also, are zincs typically bonded, or is that special?

 

[Mac2]

Thx! I'm thinking the zincs must somehow access the internal raw water tubes?
Also the stop switch on the console not working? any sugg? there is a manual level on the engine itself, but not the most convenient option.

Fresh water tank is cast iron, with internal raw water tubes for cooling the fresh that circulates around the outside of the tube system

You are describing a heat exchanger, but Ive never heard of a fresh water tank being used like that. Very confusing.

 

[O C Diver]

Ted also, are zincs typically bonded, or is that special?

Through hull fittings (seacocks), engine, fuel tanks, and negative battery terminal are typically bonded to an external zinc, often on the transom.

Ted

 

[della li]

Through hull fittings (seacocks), engine, fuel tanks, and negative battery terminal are typically bonded to an external zinc, often on the transom.

Ted

Hmm so there are zincs on the rudder, but not the transom; would that have to be attached to transom, or could it be "floating"? I know I can't get to that before mid-April. But at that point, once installed, the galvanic isolator basically replaces the bonded zinc method?

RE heat exchanger--yes; it is set up so that raw water flows through an internal set of tubes, and the fresh water in the exchanger tank flows around it. This is the opposite of my Westerbeke, which and the sea water entering the main body of the exchanger...

 

[della li]

Here is the statement and pic from service manual: The zincs are two in front (left end) and two on the rear side

 

[della li]

unless two diff models are being described, since pics slightly different: Mine is the 4PH-TE; so not absolutely sure if previous pic is for same

 

[Mac2]

Confusion solved. Your first post referenced your fresh water tank, not a heat exchanger-two different things.

 

[O C Diver]

Hmm so there are zincs on the rudder, but not the transom; would that have to be attached to transom, or could it be "floating"? I know I can't get to that before mid-April. But at that point, once installed, the galvanic isolator basically replaces the bonded zinc method?

Ok, so you need to find the bonding system, typically large green jacketed cable, and trace it to where it goes through the hull. Your survey may make reference to the bonding system, especially if it's missing. In the below picture, the bonding system are the green wires going to the terminal block on the right side.

Ted

 

[della li]

yes right I didn't mean the fresh water as in dish washing etc. My bad. Any case, so the green grounds come engine, fuel tank, metal thru hulls as well? and ground to the main ground system. then a zinc is also in the mix? It appears that would do the same job basically as the galvanic isolator. which works through the main ground from shore power upstream from the breakers (i.e. shore side of the main) or I guess connected to the same terminal as the main (shore power) ground?

 

[Comodave]

Sounds like the anode, zinc, issue has been addressed.

When you say handlaid hull or wooden core that doesn’t make sense. A hull can be hand laid or use of a chopper gun that sprays out the resin and chopped up glass strands. The core doesn’t make any difference in this regard. A hull can be solid glass or cored. If it is solid glass then it is completely glass from the outside to the inside. A cored hull has a layer of glass on the outside, then a core and then another layer of glass on the inside. The core itself can be several types of things, balsa, foam or other things. The cored hull is lighter weight but can have issues with water intrusion that can be catastrophic.

 

[O C Diver]

yes right I didn't mean the fresh water as in dish washing etc. My bad. Any case, so the green grounds come engine, fuel tank, metal thru hulls as well? and ground to the main ground system. then a zinc is also in the mix? It appears that would do the same job basically as the galvanic isolator. which works through the main ground from shore power upstream from the breakers (i.e. shore side of the main) or I guess connected to the same terminal as the main (shore power) ground?

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

You absolutely can't connect your bonding system to the shorepower ground!

A boat's bonding system has nothing to do with shorepower ground and a galvanic isolator.

Ted

 

[della li]

Sounds like the anode, zinc, issue has been addressed.

When you say handlaid hull or wooden core that doesn’t make sense. A hull can be hand laid or use of a chopper gun that sprays out the resin and chopped up glass strands. The core doesn’t make any difference in this regard. A hull can be solid glass or cored. If it is solid glass then it is completely glass from the outside to the inside. A cored hull has a layer of glass on the outside, then a core and then another layer of glass on the inside. The core itself can be several types of things, balsa, foam or other things. The cored hull is lighter weight but can have issues with water intrusion that can be catastrophic.

Thx for the clarification--that is what I was getting at basically, whether or not it is a solid or cored hull of some sort--any idea? I do recall reading somewhere that these are hand-laid hulls, but solid or not unsure.

NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

You absolutely can't connect your bonding system to the shorepower ground!

A boat's bonding system has nothing to do with shorepower ground and a galvanic isolator.

Ted

Thx yes I was not suggesting connecting the bonding system to shore power ground--I was referring to the galvanic isolator; I was just speculating that perhaps the galvanic islolator did basically the same job as the bonding system with anode tied in. So, in other words, the Q is, if you have a galvanic isolator, do you still need the bonding system?

 

[Mac2]

Yes on galvanic isolator. Better yet is a transformer (more expensive). Yes on bonding system. Read up on why you need these. Nigel Calder is the guru. He has authored books on the subject. My previous boat(Krogen Manatee) did not have a dedicated through bolted zinc for connecting to the bonding system. Maybe because the hull was cored.

 

[della li]

Yes on galvanic isolator. Better yet is a transformer (more expensive). Yes on bonding system. Read up on why you need these. Nigel Calder is the guru. He has authored books on the subject. My previous boat(Krogen Manatee) did not have a dedicated through bolted zinc for connecting to the bonding system. Maybe because the hull was cored.

K Thx! So one needs both a galvanic isolator and the bonding system? Haven't checked if the Sundowner has latter--would that have been standard in Taiwanese-built trawlers?

 

[O C Diver]

I would expect that a 1986 boat probably didn't come from the factory with a Galvanic Isolator. Secondly, I would assume they also have a finite life.

Ted

 

[della li]

I would expect that a 1986 boat probably didn't come from the factory with a Galvanic Isolator. Secondly, I would assume they also have a finite life.

Ted

Thx! I was wondering if the bonding system would have been standard procedure... I know there is not a galv isolator on board, but not sure about the bonding--will have to look more closely...

 

[Shrew]

Hi All

Recently purchased a Sundowner 30 (1986) with Yanmar diesel (4PHM--TE). Wondering why builders/designers didn't put salon and pilot house on one level and maybe move engine to stern?

1) Because it's a Tug with a pilot house. What you're describing is a completely different style boat.

2) You can't move the engine back for a number of reasons. It will move the weight back too much and change the angle of the shaft. You'd end up needing to go with a V-Drive or an Outdrive for propulsion.

 

[Fleming]

So much confusing misinformation in here so far. The AC ground DOES connect to your bonding system, because both the AC ground and the bonding system connect to the DC negative in one place each which makes them electrically connected. That's the whole reason why you need a galvanic isolator. If you don't connect the AC ground to the DC ground then you don't need a galvanic isolator (the european way, ABYC recommends connecting them for safety reasons).

The OP seems to have some confusion with the anodes in the engine heat exchanger and the boats bonding system, they're unrelated.

The Sundowner 30 has a solid glass bottom but the hull sides and decks are cored. Being a 1986 the odds are 99.9% that it's balsa cored. Bonding systems and whether to have one are unrelated with whether a boat is cored or not.

I'm guessing you bought this boat without a survey, these questions would have all been answered.

 

[O C Diver]

So much confusing misinformation in here so far. The AC ground DOES connect to your bonding system, because both the AC ground and the bonding system connect to the DC negative in one place each which makes them electrically connected. That's the whole reason why you need a galvanic isolator. If you don't connect the AC ground to the DC ground then you don't need a galvanic isolator (the european way, ABYC recommends connecting them for safety reasons).

The OP seems to have some confusion with the anodes in the engine heat exchanger and the boats bonding system, they're unrelated.

The Sundowner 30 has a solid glass bottom but the hull sides and decks are cored. Being a 1986 the odds are 99.9% that it's balsa cored. Bonding systems and whether to have one are unrelated with whether a boat is cored or not.

I'm guessing you bought this boat without a survey, these questions would have all been answered.

First, my galvanic isolator was not connected to the bonding system.

Second, while the most sensitive GFI breakers in power pedestals may disconnect power whenever there's leakage, it's questionable as to whether you should setup your boat this way. If cruising, there's no guarantee that a shorepower pedestal has the most sensitive GFI breakers, or any GFI breakers.

Finally, fresh water electrocution (swimming death) can occur through an appliance leaking voltage through a shorepower ground being electricly tied to the bonding system.

Ted

 

[Fleming]

OC Diver, if your AC grounding conductor is not connected to your DC ground, why do you have a galvanic isolator? I'm curious what you think the purpose of a galvanic isolator is?

 

[Fleming]

Finally, fresh water electrocution (swimming death) can occur through an appliance leaking voltage through a shorepower ground being electricly tied to the bonding system.

That's why we install ELCI's.

 

[O C Diver]

OC Diver, if your AC grounding conductor is not connected to your DC ground, why do you have a galvanic isolator? I'm curious what you think the purpose of a galvanic isolator is?

You misunderstood me. The galvanic isolator on my boat did not have a provision to attach the bonding system to the isolator.

Ted

 

[O C Diver]

That's why we install ELCI's.

If you're referring to shore power pedestals, there is no federal requirement to update existing systems and most states have no requirements to update existing systems. While new systems require the ELCI and new pedestals may require it based on state laws, there are lots of older marinas (including state municipal marinas) that don't have any GFI type breakers.

Ted

 

[Fleming]

You misunderstood me. The galvanic isolator on my boat did not have a provision to attach the bonding system to the isolator.

Ted

Of course not, the galvanic isolator is connected in-line on the AC grounding conductor. I'm not saying that you run some separate wire between the GI and your bonding system, I'm saying that the bonding system and the AC grounding conductor are both connected to the DC negative, so they are "essentially" connected. At least, that's the case on every boat wired to ABYC standards which is just a recommendation, plenty of boats out there doing their own thing.

 

[Fleming]

If you're referring to shore power pedestals, there is no federal requirement to update existing systems and most states have no requirements to update existing systems. While new systems require the ELCI and new pedestals may require it based on state laws, there are lots of older marinas (including state municipal marinas) that don't have any GFI type breakers.

Ted

No, I'm not referring to shore power pedestals. I'm referring to the ELCI breaker that's used as the main AC breaker on every boat built to ABYC standards in the last 10 years, every boat built in Europe for the last 25 years (but called an RCD over there), and a recommended upgrade for every boat that was built without one.

 

[della li]

So much confusing misinformation in here so far. The AC ground DOES connect to your bonding system, because both the AC ground and the bonding system connect to the DC negative in one place each which makes them electrically connected. That's the whole reason why you need a galvanic isolator. If you don't connect the AC ground to the DC ground then you don't need a galvanic isolator (the european way, ABYC recommends connecting them for safety reasons).

The OP seems to have some confusion with the anodes in the engine heat exchanger and the boats bonding system, they're unrelated.

The Sundowner 30 has a solid glass bottom but the hull sides and decks are cored. Being a 1986 the odds are 99.9% that it's balsa cored. Bonding systems and whether to have one are unrelated with whether a boat is cored or not.

I'm guessing you bought this boat without a survey, these questions would have all been answered.

Thx--useful information. Where does the hull-coring begin? somewhere above waterline I guess? Balsa core is good? not good? The decks are teak (pic below)--so there is balsa under the teak? I'll have to try to get a look under there. The survey doesn't mention a cored hull or balsa anywhere, unfortunately

 

[Mac2]

K Thx! So one needs both a galvanic isolator and the bonding system? Haven't checked if the Sundowner has latter--would that have been standard in Taiwanese-built trawlers?

Look at all your seacocks. They probably have a green wire attached. That green wire is for the bonding system and tells you that it exists on your boat. As you can tell from the above, it can be confusing-I did learn a lot from the above posts regardless. I have a Steel boat so everything is naturally bonded. It would also be wise to understand how to check if your boat is not bonded properly or over zinced-easily done (visually) when the boat is hauled.