Sundeck Owners please help

[timjet]

Hi Folks,
I think I've finally sold my sailboat, I'll know Friday, and will be on the lookout for a trawler/motor cruiser. I've been looking a bit and like the sundecks because of the aft stateroom, large outdoor area above the aft stateroom (sundeck), and the ease in which to get from the flybridge to the sundeck and then to the salon interior area. No ladders to climb like so many sedans. But there is a problem with the sundeck design, the admiral doesn't like it because of the high transom which makes it difficult to get aboard from a dingy. Especially with a large dog. Get rid of the dog you say? Don't even go there!
Does anyone have a solution to this problem. Those who have large dogs know what I'm talking about especially those that are on the hook a lot as we intend to be.

One possible solution is to go with a trunk cabin, but I haven't found any for < $70,000, '86 and later, NO TEAK, and 35+ ft. Plus I really don't like the look of a trunk cabin. And surprisingly most of the mid 80's trunk cabins don't have a transom door.

A compromise boat that I was told to look at on this forum is the 38 Bayliner. It's a sedan with the ladder to the fly bridge but a lot, lot, boat for the money. After some research I feel that the quality issues that have plaged bayliners do not neccessarily apply to the 38. It was built along with the 32 in a different factory under different specs. At least that's what I've been told. Most 38 Bayline owners on the Bayliners Owner Forum consider their boat a value boat and most are very happy to have so much for so little.

So 2 questions:
How can I make the admiral happy with a sundeck, and
Opinions on the Bayliner 38 please.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[Marin]

I can't help you with your first question.* The issue of easy dock and dinghy access is an important one in this part of the world where most docks require someone to step from the boat*onto them to secure a line because of the use of bullrails instead of cleats.* We have a 50-pound dog and can lift him from the dinghy to the aft deck of our GB but it would be hard to do with a heavier dog and impossible to do with a sundeck-style boat if the aft cabin ran all the way to the transom as it does with GB's "sundeck" model which they call a Motoryacht.

The sundeck is not a popular configuration in this part of the world anyway,*as the year-round*damp, rainy weather and cold winter temperatures make it a lmited use space, even if it's enclosed with canvas.* The most user-friendly trawler configuration for this climate is the Europa with its overhanging boatdeck that*covers the side and aft decks.* This configuration is very popular here in both the "trawler" style boats like GB*and pilothouse boats like Krogen, Fleming, etc.* But for warmer climates I can see the appeal of a sundeck configuration although I find the ones that have a high aft cabin/sundeck aesthetically disappointing.

I've had no direct experience with Bayliners but*we know several people who have them. The larger boats are supposed to be a totally different deal than the smaller models. The smaller boats (17' through maybe 30') were intended to appeal to a mass market that wanted a "real" boat but didn't have the funds for makes like Tollycraft, etc. The watchword on the smaller Bayliners was "inexpensive" and this applied to their construction methods as well as their components.

Many of their larger models were built at the company's Arlington, Washington plant (now permanently closed), and everything I've heard is that these boats have totally different quality standards than the smaller models. People we know who have them have taken them to destinations all over the PNW including coastal BC and SE Alaska. On cruises up north we see more Bayliners than any other make except possibly Grand Banks and Tollycraft.

From everything I've seen, these Bayliners, like the 38-footer you're contemplating, offer a higher user value for the dollar than many if not most other makes. The brand has a bad reputation but this, I believe, is based primarily on their mass-market models.

One complaint I have heard about many Bayliners, including some of the larger models, is poor engine access.* The engines themselves are easy enough to get at but the way they are mounted in the engine space can make getting at some components, particulalry those that are*mounted on the outboard sides of the engines,*almost impossible.* I have heard this from owners and the diesel shop we use.* So that's something you might want to check out on the 38-footer you're thinking about.




-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 8th of December 2009 07:30:51 PM

 

[koliver]

32 and 38 Bayliners of enough vintage to be cheap (you said under $70k) have round chines and small hp Hino diesels. That combination creates what we have long recognized as "Bayliner wash" because the 10knots, which is all you get with that combination, is at the maximum angle and creates one huge wash. Your sailing buddies will never let you back onto their boats if you douse them even once with a Bayliner wash!
Sloboat has the expensive solution. You might find a cheap sundeck/cockpit in an older Canoe Cove 41 or Uniflight 36. Something like his OA won't be that cheap unless it was a hurricane salvage.

 

[timjet]

Sloboat,

Sundeck with a cockpit? Can you give me some examples?

 

[Marin]

koliver wrote:

32 and 38 Bayliners of enough vintage to be cheap (you said under $70k) have round chines and small hp Hino diesels. That combination creates what we have long recognized as "Bayliner wash" because the 10knots, which is all you get with that combination, is at the maximum angle and creates one huge wash.

There is a retrofit kit that can be applied to these round-chine Bayliners that turns the round chine into a hard chine and produces more lift from the afterbody of the boat.* These were reviewed some years ago in one of the PNW boating magazines.* They are supposed to*lower the bow at cruise speed,*increase the cruise speed, reduce fuel consumption, and reduce the wake.* My recollection is they are not cheap, but*from what I've heard from*acquaintances who put them on their boat, they are very effetive.* My recollection is they are made by some outfit out here.

 

[Forkliftt]

Tim,
My slip neighbor has a Prairie 47, I know this is a bit larger than you are looking at- but I gotta admit the CPMY is a great improvement over a sundeck. We own a 42' sundeck and I would not trade it for anything because of the features you mentioned. But Larry enjoys all of the outside living space like we do, along with convenient landing space the small CP adds. We get on the old girl from the side at our current berth, but getting down to the dink is always a climb, and I am afraid it won't get any easier as we get older. I'm not sure how large you have to get to get the cockpit. Might search Yachtworld for all trawler CPMY

 

[Baker]

Tim, Californian has a 43(a 38 with a 5 foot cockpit) that is a very roomy boat and I think damn good looking as well. They are American built and have little teak. They are usually Caterpillar powered although you will ocassionally find a Detroiter in there.

Also, you might be able to find a Carver in that price range. One nice thing about some of the Carvers is that they usually have some sort of door in the cockpit that allows access to the aft stateroom from the cockpit. While I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with Carvers, they aren't all that handsome.

Californian below. *I only found one on Yachtworld which is odd. *There are usually about 5-8 at any given time. *Just gotta keep an eye out for them.




-- Edited by Baker on Tuesday 8th of December 2009 10:07:06 PM

 

[Baker]

Another one I like for practical reasons is the Golden Star 39 with cockpit. Again, this boat has access from the cockpit to the aft stateroom. I don't think it is a particularly good looking boat but it isn't bad. Link below....

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...-W--Cockpit-2001656/Marathon/FL/United-States

Pic below of the type of Carver I had in mind...listed for $99k






-- Edited by Baker on Tuesday 8th of December 2009 10:15:42 PM

-- Edited by Baker on Tuesday 8th of December 2009 10:16:16 PM

 

[FF]

"That combination creates what we have long recognized as "Bayliner wash" because the 10knots, which is all you get with that combination, is at the maximum angle and creates one huge wash. "

Any 38 ft boat operated at 10K will make an immense wash as it is a really lousy speed.

Even with a 36 ft lwl (not probable) it is WAY above cruise speed and* "hull" speed , where the stern sinks as the vessel poorly attempts to climb its own bow wave.

Strakes , tabs or ply wood screwed to the hull in an attempt to ease the wake are a waste of time.

Either the boat needs 400% more fuel burn to get on the plane , or to be 1/5 the weight .

DECIDE what type of boat you want , displacement or speed boat before contemplating what shape the deck house should be.


If you are going cruising , the tiny fuel burn of the displacement and easier ride in rough* waters would be a choice.

If its weekend jaunts , not far to the next dock , 25gph is easier to feed than 4gph.

FF



-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 9th of December 2009 05:02:39 AM

 

[timjet]

Thanks to all who replied. I didn't know a sundeck with a cockpit existed.
The newer model Carver's like John mentioned would be perfect. Just a little out of my price range right now. Perhaps I'll let them age 5 years or so and they'll be affordable.
The mid 80's sundeck with cockpit I think are just a little too unique and would violate my #1 rule in buying a boat: Easy to sell when the time comes. For this reason I am seriously looking at the 38 Bayliners. There are several for sale within a 100 mile driving distance. I haven't seen one yet, but am trying to get with a couple of brokers to see one this weekend.

It's a real shame that more people don't try and sell their boats by themselves. I think a broker in this size boat is of limited value. For the boater that wants someone else to do all the leg work and perhaps all the thinking for them, then a broker will earn his keep. For the rest of us who do the research, we'll save a little money and be more educated too boot.

I just sold my sailboat without a broker. Interestingly, before putting the boat up for sale, I was visiting a marina for a 3 day weekend looking at a 38' gulfstar. The broker asked me if I would be selling my boat and offered to broker it for me. When I asked how much he thought I would get for it if I included the dingy and motor, he replied, "I'll list it for $15,000 and hopefully we'll get $12,000". I sold it myself for $17,000 last week without the dingy and motor.

 

[timjet]

Folks, I've been looking for a replacement boat for my recently sold sailboat and have am looking for a value boat in the < $70,000 range as described above. I've viewed 3 38 bayliners all within my price range but they are all over the place in how they look. One was a derelict, one was OK with a substantial amount of deck leaks, and one was in pretty good shape. Surprisingly the best one was the cheapest. I mentioned in a previous post in this thread that I would be interested in a boat that was a combination sundeck with a cockpit for ease of boarding from a dingy. In previewing several boat internet sites I came across a Chris Craft Corinthian 380 which appears to be more of a trunk cabin. Does anyone know anything about these boats? Doesn't seem to be much on the internet about them

-- Edited by timjet on Saturday 19th of December 2009 10:45:55 AM

 

[Baker]

he biggest problem I see with the CC is that they are about 98% gasoline powered. Another thing about the Corinthian in general, is curb appeal. there is no way in hell I would get approval from the Admiral for one of those. They ain't all that purdy!...strictly my opinion.

 

[FF]

"98% gasoline powered"

For most boaters gas is far better than diesel.

Less maint , really easy to put out of service or ignore, low repair costs , low rebuild costs and parts at NAPA rather than a diesel dealer.

For 100 -200 Hrs a year the savings in a gas boat far outweigh any "fuel" savings.

One "out of service over 30 days" proper diesel LAYUP ,MAY COST MORE THAN all THE GASSERS FUEL FOR THE YEAR.

No choice when 2000nm legs are contemplated , but for most gas is a genuine positive .

The hassle is gas dies in a few weeks , so the technique of 2 tanks is getting common.

The "big" one is filled for the use , and run EMPTY on the way in. The tiny one gets the boat back to the slip, and over to the gas dock the next trip.

FF

 

[sunchaser]

Warm sheds are good, but---------------- Diesel manuals are quite specific on layup and starting after. Most diesels have a start setup such that you can crank the engine to pump oil to turbo, upper end*etc without engine starting. This alleviates many of the problems.**Mine is setup that way. but in the PNW you don't have to winterize if you are in the water. But a cold start after an 8 month layup, perish the thought. Think Tiger woods, sooner or later you'll get caught.

 

[Baker]

FF, I will disagree with you as far as maintenance is concerned. Of course, I live on the Gulf Coast so we don't do any layup. A diesel engine offers MUCH more reliability and barring a catastrophic failure, any numbnuts should be able to keep one running.

BUT............

That is not the whole reason one considers a diesel. I will tell you that I will not sleep in a gasoline powered boat with a generator running. Carbon monoxide poisoning is a very real threat in a gasoline engine....it is not nearly as much of a threat in a diesel powered boat. You would have to concentrate and inhale near the exhaust pipe to get enough to kill you.

ALSO......

Explosion hazards are also a very real threat in a gas powered boat. I have personally witnessed 2 gas boats explode. One of them was unbelievable...we are talking hollywood style where nothing was left but what was raining from the sky....people floating in the water.....limbs missing....amazingly no one died(I think mostly due to the response of all of the first responders involved....it was an amazing impromptu coordination of Boat US and the Coast Guard and the EMS/Life flight folks)

I have acquaintances that have big gas boats. I cringe when they advance the throttles and you can hear those things struggling and occasionally detonating. A boat is under continuous heavy load due to the drag of the water. A diesel thrives under those conditions. A gas engine struggles. ANyway, those same folks seem to always have an issue where one of their engines isn't running properly...or at all. A diesel engine is generally trouble free. It either runs, or it doesn't. Ad if it doesn't, we all know why.

 

[Marin]

I think John did a right-on summary of the advantages of diesel over gas when it comes to powering boats like ours. Obviously outboard boats and runabouts are a different deal, although the fire/explosion danger still exists with the ski-boats and runabouts. In my experience, it's pretty remarkable how an older vehicle develops fuel leaks. Very minor ones--- a saturated hose, a slight seep on a fuel pump or filter, and so on. But on a vehicle, this makes no difference since the fuel evaporates or is blown away by the movement of air through the engine compartment. And if it drips a bit while standing still, that doesn't matter either since the fuel and fumes end up on the ground and are dispersed. But this same, minor "doesn't matter" fuel seepage that becomes common as a vehicle ages can be deadly on a boat as John describes. Sure, a very conscientious boater can thoroughly inspect their engine and engine compartment before every start, but how many of them actually do that. My guess is that the person operating the boat that exploded in John's example didn't.

As to cold starting, we keep our boat in the water and use it year round, weather and time permitting. Ford Lehman 120s don't have glow plugs or intake air pre-heaters (our Onan generator does, however). So the FL120 can be a reluctant starter when it's cold, even with the cold-start knob pulled. So we keep an electric oil heater in the engine room during the winter. One of those things that looks like a little steam radiator. No exposed heating element, not fan, no glowing ceramic plate. On the lowest setting (600w) with the thermostat set at the halfway point, it keeps the engine room between 50 and 60 degrees even when it's below freezing outside. So in January or February if we decide to go out, the engines start right now, same as they do in the summer.

 

[timjet]

I gotta chip in hear and put my 2 cents worth in even though it's a little bit off topic.
FF, I have to respectfully disagree with you when considering the boats that started this thread.
There is just no doubt that a diesel engine in a boat large enough to be comfortable in while extended cruising is more reliable, fuel efficient and safer.

I've owned boats with gas and diesel. Neither diesel engine boat has ever had any work done on the engine beyond preventative maintenance. One boat dates back to '84 though I have lost track of her, the other an '89 which I just sold. My gas powered '94 I/O has had one engine overhaul, the carb rebuilt twice, the starter replaced, and it's now making some funny noise's which may be the main bearings going.

I've never heard of a diesel boat exploding. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened, but diesel fuel is just hard to get to burn as opposed to the readily explosive nature of gas. And John brings up a good point about the fumes associated with a gas engine generator.

I have no experience comparing fuel efficiency in similar sized gas and diesel boats. General convention favors diesel overwhelmingly, but perhaps someone else here can chime in on this consideration.

 

[Capn Chuck]

Tim, You are absolutely correct. There is no comparison from gas to diesel on a cruising boat, diesel being hands down the preferred for safety longevity and maintenance. FF's comparison holds little value in the real world. Chuck

 

[Baker]

Marin, the boat I was talking about had gone out for a late evening summer cruise. It was a 30ish foot express cruiser. The guy knew he had enough fuel on board for the short trip so off they went. Well, when they got out into the bay, both engines shut down due to fuel starvation confirmed by the guages on "E". SO he got a fuel drop by BoatUS not thinking that his fuel had gone somewhere other than out the exhaust pipe....it was in the bilge of the boat. BoatUS made the drop and was just leaving the scene when the captain turned the keys and....BOOM. We were about 200 yards away and it was an amazing sight. When we got to the scene there was literally no boat left....just debris and people floating in the water....two of them VERY seriously injured. The one thing that saved their lives I think was the "openness" of the boat. It just blew them out into the water instead of against something. The BoatUS guy luckily was right there. He got everybody out of the water and by the time he got them to land just minutes away, amazingly, the helicopter was on the scene. I'll never forget the BoatUS dude on the radio to the USCG....he was absolutely FREAKED out!!! The concussion of the blast must have been pretty bad where he was. We felt it at our range.

 

[Marin]

You would think, given the consequences you just described, that common sense--- even if a person has just a little of it--- would prompt people with inboard engined gas boats to take a good whiff of the air in the bilge before starting their engines. The fellow in Hawaii I fished with for many years had for most of the time I fished with him a 28' Uniflite with Chrysler counter-rotating V-8s, the standard power package for that particular model. It was a bad power setup for those waters as he soon found out, but he fished that boat for a number of years until he moved up to a single diesel, northwest-style boat he had built for him on Lake Union

But before he started the engines of the Uniflite he would first open the engine compartment hatches, lie down in the cockpit, and stick his head down between the engines and give the air in the compartment a thorough check out with his nose. In all the time he had that boat he found a slight gas seep that way just one time that I know of, but he did this religiously before every engine start. After he did that, he would then run the fume evacuation fan per the starting procedure and then start the engines.

It's not hard, it doesn't take much time, and it's the best guarantee I can think of to avoid an explosion like the one you described. I guess it doesn't work if one's sense of smell is such that you can't smell gasoline fumes, but they're pretty obvious to most people. Jim used the evacuation fans but he didn't trust them to do a thorough job.

It's amazing how dumb people can be with boats. A few years ago a fellow with a twin-engine Bayliner of some sort was having a hard time getting one of his engines to start, so he opened the engine hatch and poured raw fuel down into the carburetor. The engine backfired, the fuel that he'd spilled in the process of doing this caught fire, the single, two-pound extinguisher he had on board was no more effective than spitting on the fire, and by the time it was all over, his boat was burned to the waterline, the newly refurbished and restored CHB in the slip next to him was burned-out hulk, and the nice cruiser on the other (upwind) side of him had it's hull charred and deformed by the heat. Part of the dock had been burned and most of the boats on the dock downwind of him had suffered smoke and soot damage.

To me, one of the trends I see in more and more people these days is an increasing inability to think through the consequences of an action. "If I do this, this could happen." It ranges from not anticipating things like "If I put this really expensive vase on the coffee table the dog could come by and knock it off with his tail" to "If I pour a ton of raw gas into the carburetor of my engine it could backfire and the gas could ignite."

I'm not sure why this inability to foresee consequences seems to have become almost the norm in people these days, but from my observation it sure seems to be the case.....



-- Edited by Marin on Monday 21st of December 2009 12:20:42 PM

 

[sunchaser]

I must say I agree with FF. there are many very good gas engine boats out there, especially where diesel makes no sense. Say anything less than 12,000 lb for a MV. I'd guess new boat sales are about 90% gas between 26' to 35' and of course 99% below 26'. I cruised for years on a 36' Trojan with 383s and countless Searays with no problems. But I did watch out!!

 

[Avista]

Tiim,

I just went throught the same exercise including getting to survey on a 42' Chris Craft Catalina (gas engines flunked; salt water incursion) and ended up with a 1989 Vista 43' sundeck Taiwan built boat. I paid in the range you are looking and it will do 10 knots with very little wake at 8 gph and will 8 knots with almost no wake at 5.5 gph on twin diesels. I am very pleased with the boat, and will be happy to give you more details if you pm me. I am in Central Florida, there are plenty of boats available right now, you just have to be patient. We looked at a couple of dozen all over Florida before we found this one. The 43' Viking is a good choice too.

Good luck.
Marc

-- Edited by Avista on Monday 21st of December 2009 05:21:41 PM

-- Edited by Avista on Monday 21st of December 2009 05:24:47 PM

 

[FF]

"There is no comparison from gas to diesel on a cruising boat, diesel being hands down the preferred for safety longevity ."

Safety is in the hands of the owner/operator , with so many propane stoves , even diesel boats can be considered more risky than perhaps coal.

With most pleasure boats CRUISING on minor HP ( Under 100hp) for about 100 hours a year diesel makes little sense.

Sure once the engine time climbs the 2000 hour life of a maintained gas engine will be eaten more rapidly , but for the majority its a non issue.

Even double the norm of 200 hrs only equals a fresh $2500 -$4000 engine every decade. And as the tech is still geared to gassers the higher tech and better fuel consumption advances will be gained.

THe diesel disadvantages ,HEAVY , NOISEY , HIGHER MAINT FOR NON USE , MORE EXPENSIVE PARTS , OIL, ANTIFREEZ AND "diesel mechanics" makes that 2000 hour service life far less costly than similar time on a diesel.Toss in the destruction of underloading for outsized engines and the costs go up , and reliable service life goes down even more.

Should the boat do hundreds of hours a year , or require much over roughly 100hp cont for cruise an industrial diesel, (not a VW , BMW or other car transplant) could make sense , AFTER the numbers for the vessel is run.

Diesel is the engine of choice for 24/7/365 , but that is seldom
what most "trawlers" do.

One hassle with gas is the local rulers tax gas so high that it is not in most ports, so for a world traveler diesel is easier to obtain, particularly in "Bond".

FF

 

[Baker]

Peace of mind, FF, and I will pay for it!!!

 

[Baypoint]

We had the same issue. We like the sundeck for all the benefits but didn't like the monkey ladder on the stern. We looked at cockpit designs but you loose about 5 or 6 feet due to it so you would need to go up in size.* Instead being the engineer that I am I came up with the following solution for less then $1K including the Powd Coating. Now we can walk up the staris even the Pug can make it up on her own. At the dock we simply step onto the step most even with the dock and walk up.

 

[timjet]

Great design. I love my molded in stairs but I paid dearly for it.

 

[ashapiro]

I have a Gulfstar 43 MkII Sundeck trawler, a lightweight (85 pounds plus 9.9 hp outboard also 85 pounds) dinghy, and a 65 pound yellow labrador. I tried using a sundeck mounted lifting davit to get the dog up and down to the swim platform with comic and almost disastrous results.

What I now do is as follows: I bring the dinghy around to the side deck gate. The deck is 2 large steps below the level of the sundeck. I then hoist (by hand) the bow of the dinghy up to about a foot below deck level. The dog jumps in and so far has not punctured the airfloor of the dinghy.

On returning to the boat I motor or row to the gate, jump out, and again hoist the bow up. This is marginally more difficult due to the weight of the dog, but I assure you Charles Atlas I am not! The dog scrambles out and I return the dinghy to its home on the davits.

I think this would be much more difficult to do with a RIB and/or a much heavier dog.

Hope this helps.

Alan Shapiro

 

[Pineapple Girl]

Wow, Alan, THAT is ingenuity!* That would NEVER have occurred to me.* So simple!**

-- Edited by Pineapple Girl on Friday 19th of November 2010 04:26:56 PM

 

[Peter B]

Even simpler, is just not having/taking a dog.......but as they become like one of the family, I understand the dilemma. However, because of these issues, when our much-loved Toy Poodle, Sophie, passed on, we left it at that.

 

[Marin]

Everybody has their personal preferences. For us, boating without a dog isn't boating. We have always taken our dogs with us in the boat, be it the trailer Arima fishing boat or the GB. In our opinion--- despite the shedding--- they greatly enhance the whole boating experience. Our current dog (Albi)*took his first ride on the GB at nine weeks of age. Or course he had our older dog*(RJ)*along for reassurance.